"Moderate Muslims"

Lifestyle Relationships
21

excellent topic.

perhaps it would be useful if we defined the terms we used at the start:

MUSLIM - how do you define a muslim? who is a muslim and who is not? who decides? if someone claims to ba a muslim does someone else have the right to say he or she isn't one?

MODERATE: is it the opposite of extremist? what is an extremist, then? or is a moderate someone who conforms to certain "norms"? is it a "bit of everything"? or does it mean something different in different circumstances?

when someone tells me what a moderate is then maybe I can tell you when I see one.

22

We should understand that religion in Allah's eyes is "submission to Allah's will" (3:19).

So religion just doesn't govern our 'beliefs' only but our actions too.

We should do what Allah "wills" and stay away from what Allah "wills" us not to do.

..and I'm sure Allah never 'wills' for us to watch soft-porn, but to stay away from indecency or lewdness.

So this gentlemen who took a salat-break didn't 'fully submit' to Allah yet; but he may still be better in Allah's eyes than many of us.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 12, 2001).]

23

[quote]
Originally posted by aMiGo:
**Salam,

Either you are a 100% true muslim, or ur not. **
[/quote]

I don't agreee..

I do agree to ahmedjee, Ezee..

What do you mean by 100% muslim, can you explain that.. What is the deifinition of a 100% Muslim, what are the qualities, deeds of one such person..???

24

I think the emphasis on judging a person should be on his/her character, qualities of the person - not if he is 100% shariati.

The aim of religion is to make a human being a better person. I would like to ask those person who have claimed to be 100% muslim if they are good human beings. They will unequivocally say -Yes!
If so - then, they wouldn't be disparaging, putting down the other half who wish to - live & let live.

25

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
I think the emphasis on judging a person should be on his/her character, qualities of the person - not if he is 100% shariati.
.
[/quote]

So for example if I am going against the law so that would not be a criteria to judge my charecter.

26

[quote]
Originally posted by MiniMe:
** So for example if I am going against the law so that would not be a criteria to judge my charecter.**
[/quote]

By saying that you are automatically implying that those who are not 100% shariati are against God's law and not good human-beings!

You & I both know that this is not true.
Actually - atheists & agnostics, imho, make better human beings than devout & 100% muslims or christians - as the case may be. You know why?
Because - it is impossible for them to respect the others because their scriptures condemn the others in derogatory terms and this shows up in the person.

How can a muslim or a christian be a better human being when they both preach intolerance against the people of other faiths?

What good is being 100% shariati if I am hateful of christians & others?

You may have a good answer that serves you but I doubt if it would satisfy me.

27

Lets start again, you said that judgeing the person should be based upon his charecter and not if he is a 100% law abiding person.

I think the law is used as a yard stick to judge your charecter. There is no 100% law abiding citizen, you measure yourself against the laws. If you have a bad record that will show a bad charecter.

You are right, the aim of the religion is to make you a better human being, isnt that the purpose of of any law in the world. Tell me about a law in the states which will make you a bad person. In the same way the laws of the religion are to make you a better person.

So if you are not folloing the law or going against it, how would it show good charecter. And to say that there are no 100% law abiding ppl dosent mean that there is no justification of that law.

28

A few more questions to honorable guppies

*Ezee:When someone doesn't follow our particular line based on this 100% concept (either you are muslim or you aren't) we dub our fellow muslims as kafirs *

I say we don't DUB him as kafir but the person himself should be fair with the religion and should NOT claim to be a muslim - is it a wrong expectation?

Ezee: That's how 5 (4 sunnis and 1 shia) major school of Islamic jurisprudence came into being. Had it been so black and white there would have been only and only one school

It might sound utopian but I think there should only be one school. I agree that it is civilized to show tolerance and respect towards other Islamic schools but don't you think that difference of opinion towards a common religion makes the religion weak and followers fools?

Pristine: So I think these people just go through the motions of namaaz and don't really get the understanding of why and how to pray
When these people claim to be muslims…is that justified? Even though humans are no one to judge each other when it comes to beliefs but isn't it a hypocrisy which most of us are guilty of…?

Shirin: is it a "bit of everything"? or does it mean something different in different circumstances?
Exactly Shirin…it’s a bit of everything and it is very common among our present generation. If islam is too hard to follow then why give it a bad name by claiming to be muslims?

Pakistani abroad: So this gentlemen who took a salat-break didn't 'fully submit' to Allah yet; but he may still be better in Allah's eyes than many of us.
How is he better than a non muslim who is not praying at all and being fair with muslims?

Faceup: I think the emphasis on judging a person should be on his/her character, qualities of the person - not if he is 100% shariati.
Are you saying following shariat is a matter of choice?

*Minime And to say that there are no 100% law abiding ppl dosent mean that there is no justification of that law. *
Well said!

Ciao
BoSS

[This message has been edited by BoSS (edited November 13, 2001).]

29

Boss Dear
one of the problems with us today's muslims is that we don't read. and if at all we do, we don't go beyond our ignorant moulvi's alif, bay, and his interpretation. For succeeding in today's global community as muslims, we ALL need to know what our religion is and for that the basic sources are Quran and hadith. When you study both of those noble sources, you'll see how much flexibility in many deen is (well within the limits defined by Almighty). I would also urge you guys (and gals too) to get hold of Allama Iqbal's Ph.D. thesis "reconstruction of Metaphysics in Islam" and give it a thoughful reading with an open mind. It would help clear the fog in many minds about what shariat in the first place is.

About 100% black and white, after accepting Allah as sole maa'bood and Muhammad (SAW) as last prophet, only commiting of kaba'ir (great sins as defined in Quran) can taint a believer's faith to a level that he can be treated as out of Islam. Other than that no one has authority and right suspect another believer's faith. And yes, consuming alcohol -- even for social reasons -- is one of kaba'ir, which numerous of indulge into especially the ones living in the West (alhamdolillah I don't).

[This message has been edited by Ezee (edited November 14, 2001).]

30

[quote]
Originally posted by BoSS:
I say we don't DUB him as kafir but the person himself should be fair with the religion and should NOT claim to be a muslim - is it a wrong expectation?
[/quote]

I understand the honorable intent in your message. I agree that if we are not following the religion to it's finest point, it is not fair to represent it.

But then, what do you call yourself?

31

I wouldn’t count watching soft-porn as being unfair to non-muslims! afterall non-muslims were paid to bare themself

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

32

Muzna:But then, what do you call yourself?
Lets just say my conscience doesn't allow me to introduce myself as a muslim.

And that is what I am trying to convey here. Baiscs of Islam are black and white ...People who are justifying the mid path are dodging themselves....I find that pitiful.

33

[quote]
Originally posted by BoSS:
***Muzna:But then, what do you call yourself?*
Lets just say my conscience doesn't allow me to introduce myself as a muslim.

And that is what I am trying to convey here. Baiscs of Islam are black and white ...People who are justifying the mid path are dodging themselves....I find that pitiful.**
[/quote]

You blieve in God and His prophit and you r so much into the other or non-islamic stuff that your conscience does not let you call yourself muslim and your guilt has stopped you from praying and stuff . That is as dumb as saying that I bunked one class and I was so much guilt conscious that I flunged all others .
to me this is dumb as any thing but still i would remain in the list wit ahmedjee .

and in evry post you have been saying that islam is black and white ..............islam is black and white .......... but still so confused that can not even tell us your religion .
And do n't just stop answering me because i have talked you out .Get real .

34

[quote]
Originally posted by BoSS:
**Lets just say my conscience doesn't allow me to introduce myself as a muslim.

And that is what I am trying to convey here. Baiscs of Islam are black and white ...People who are justifying the mid path are dodging themselves....I find that pitiful.**
[/quote]

Lets be clear on one thing. If you are waiting for a perfect muslim who commits no sin whatsoever, then I am afraid you are in for a long wait. Even the Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) used to seek forgiveness for all his sins every day. And that is precisely what I had said earlier. We should constantly improve our knowledge and our lives according to Islam and to seek forgiveness for all our sins.

I don't know how you interpreted it to mean that I am somehow justifying non-compliance with islamic rules, and worse still that we are not sincere with Islam. I have not met any "perfect" muslim, I myself may not be a perfect muslim, but that neither stops me from idenifying myself as a muslim nor stops me from representing muslims in a non-muslim community. If I leave that path, I will have even less of an incentive to improve. That will be like throwing in the towel. No. Thats not how it should be.

You said that your conscience does not allow you to introduce yourself as a muslim. The very fact that your conscience speaks to you makes you a better person than many of us. And number 2, you are a muslim and you better be proud of it, and whatever flaws and weaknesses you find in your personality, are the ones you should work on, rather than disassociating yourself from the community. It will be better if you don't drink because you think it reflect badly on muslims if someone sees you drinking, rather than keep on drinking and stop identifying yourself as a muslim altogether.

As an individual, I neither take responsibility for the actions of the whole group nor feel offended that a culprit is a muslim. Like it or not, Muhammad Ata was a muslim. My job, as I see it, is to steady the course of my own life and those around me for whom I care, and to present the best face possible for muslims. It may mean I should stop doing things which I otherwise like to do, but if that is a choice I make, I'll probably be a better person. I don't have to constantly feel embarassed, pitiful or sick of those who parade around as muslims and drink liquor, or go to clubs or crash aeroplanes into civilian population in the name of Allah. To each his own. They will give their own account and I will give my own on the day of judgement.

35

What were you watching Striptease for?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hoonh.gif

Anyway, each to his own.

36

Boss, look at this way: There are no Muslims or Hindus or Jews or Christians in the world, there are only people (quite few billions of them) in the world with varying degrees of faith/belief in the idealogy of their choice or the one they were handed over by their respective parents/culture/society.

Does that make it any important to view the religion as a final defining way of life for them, deviation from which will classify them any less moral humans? No, of course not. What's more important is that how much they identify themselves with a certain faith regardless of how much they actually abide by its principles in their daily lives.

Identifying oneself with a certain group is also one of the needs that we have as social animals. Whether it's ethnic or religious or cultural or whatever else. When we say we are Pakistanis, we are identifying ourselves with a particular group. Even if somebody says he/she is an athiest, he/she is still identifying himself/herself with a certain group. So it's quite natural for anybody to have such a group association. We all seek identity, one way or the other.

Now comes the question why do we like to be Muslims or Hindus or Christians. Well, it is my guess that we basically require a certain level of spirituality to take our minds off the ever inflicting questions regarding life after death, or meaning of life etc etc (you know, all that good stuff).

By following a particular religion, we somehow achieve that certain level of spirituality or feeling that our asses are covered once we die because we followed certain faith which promises a better life after death (and we might even get to get a lot more sex than we ever dreamed of in our worldly lives - why do you think all this Taliban dudes are so eager to achieve "shahadat"? Yep, everything in life, death, and life later on is about sex).

But people follow their religions or faith only to the point where it meets their spiritual needs and make them feel good about themselves. For some people, five times a day prayers, fasting, and Haj is the limit, for some, a lot less.

But is it justifiable if somebody practices his/her faith lesser but still be part of that group identity? Well, I don't think it's important. Whatever works for him/her is all good. We do pick and choose in life. We pick and choose in every single aspect of life. Our lives, life styles, brand of six pack in the fridge, all are reflective of our choices - religion is no exception.

37

Great posts all of you.

While I do not necessarily agree with some of the comments here all I want to say is that the biggest problem is that we try to judge for others what being a muslim is.

Quite simply, what Islam and being Muslim is to one is not the same to another. We have the Quaran and the prophet's (PBUH) teachings but they have been interpreted and misinterpreted by Islamic scholars all over the world.

In my opinion, being a Muslim is first to be a good human being and follow the religion when its clear and make the best interpretation when it is not. That person and only that person is answerable for their sins and failuers to Allah. Not you or me. So who makes us judges on Muslims, fundamentalists, and moderates. As long as your practice does not infringe on the securtiy and rights of another person be they Muslim or not you are doing fine.

No state, nation or government has the moral or legal authority to tell another person how to practice their faith. After all they will not repent or pay for this persons sins. This is the most hypocritical form of imposing Islam on all muslims.

So coming back to the point of Moderate Muslims. If you want to call yourself that go ahead. I can guarantee you that your definition of a moderate muslim will be different from someone else's.

May Allah give us the courage to see the error of our ways.

Honourable

All it takes is a smile.

38

so BoSS, since yer watching that movie...are you saying you are not a muslim?