Mistakes of Bhutto

[muqawwee123]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Here is what I could find about the situation of Karachi during 1971 war:

IAF aircraft, mostly Canberras, attacked Agra Taj, a civilian colony, inflicting heavy casualties. IAF aircraft also bombed Karachi airport and Landhi railway station, about 20 miles from Karachi.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1971/1971 - 2747.html

There was an air strike at Karachi by IAF just about the time the Indian Navy launched the missile attack; but there is no positive evidence of damage to the harbour due to the air strike, which was in all probability directed at PAF air bases in Karachi. There were reports of bombs having been dropped in Bihar and Agra Taj colonies near Mauripur. The chance attack by IAF at about the same time as the missile attack has led to a controversy between the IAF and the Indian Navy for claiming credit for the damage to oil tanks at Keamari. In all probability this missile had strayed away from its target and locked on to the strong echo of the oil tank.

1971 Indo/Pak Naval War

Next few days we saw billi-choohay kaa khael in Karachi’s skies. One time I even saw the face of the pilot of an Indian airforce plane that flew above our aangan. They were flying too low in Karachi with ample deedah-dilaeree.

Every day us kids will get together outside in galee-muhalla and wonder where the PK airforce was…really, it was no where to be found. Karachi was being protected by anti aircraft guns. Few days later, oil storage tanks at KeemaRi were bombed and we could see the smoke. Some civilian homes at Agra Taj colony in Liyari area were bombed too, may be by mistake. Otherwise, IAF mostly didn’t target civilians. I don’t even think they bombed in Karachi much, they were flying around just for dehshet gardee!

Karachi’s busiest Place | Karachi Metblogs

[Murfid]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

@Ali_Syed

However here’s the draft of the Simla agreement. Both forces moves to their sides of the international border, but there was no such border on the Kashmir side. Therefore the Line of Control (before 1971 it was ceasefire line but its not an international border) was chalked out which would have meant Pakistan ceding some areas to them.

Simla Agreement 2 July 1972

Simla Agreement, 2 July 1972

This agreement on Bilateral Relations between India and Pakistan was signed after the 1971 India-Pakistan War, in which Pakistan was defeated conclusively and which resulted in the creation of Bangladesh. India refrained from attacking or finishing off Pakistan and signed this agreement with the hope that henceforth the countries in the region would be able to live in peace with each other. The then Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, also promised the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi, that his country would accept the Line of Control (LOC) in the state of J&K as the de facto border and would not try ot de-stabilise it.

This was not formally entered in the agreement because Bhutto said it would cause domestic problems for him at this juncture. Mrs Gandhi magnanimously accepted his promise and did not formalise that part of the agreement. But Pakistan, as later events were to prove, never kept its part of the deal.

The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflct and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the sub-continent, so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing task of advancing the welfare of their peoples.

In order to achieve this objective, the Government of India and the Govern- ment of Pakistan have agreed as follows:

(i) That the principles and purposes off the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the countries;

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peaceful and harmonious relations.

(iii) That the pre-requisite for reconciliation, good-neighbourliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both countries to peaceful co-existence, respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty and non-interference in each other’s internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit;

(iv) That the basic issues and causes of conflict which have bedevilled the relations between the two countries of the last twenty-five years shall be resolved by peaceful means;

(v) That they shall always respect each other’s national unity, territorial integrity, political independence and sovereign equality;

(vi) That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, they shall refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other;

(II) Both Governments will take all steps within their power to prevent hostile propaganda direcdted against each other.

Both countries will encourage the dissemination of such information as would promote the development of friendly relations between them;

(III) In order progressively to restore and normalize relations between the two countries step by step, it was agreed that;

(i) Steps shall be taken to resume communications, postal, telegraphic, sea, land including border posts, and air links including overflights;

(ii) Appropriate steps shall be taken to promote travel facilities for the nationals of the other country;

(iii) Trade and co-operation in economic and other agreed fields will be resumed as far as possible;

(iv) Exchange in the fields of science and culture will be promoted.

In this connextion delegations from the two countries will meet from time to time to work out the necessary details.

(IV) In order to initiate the process of the establishment of durable peace, both Governments agree that:

**(i) Indian and Pakistani forces shall be withdrawn to their side of the international border;

**
(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat of the use of force in violation of this line;

(iii) The withdrawals shall commence upon entry into force of this Agreement and shall be completed within a period of thirty days thereof.

(V) This Agreement will be subject to ratification by both countries in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures, and will come into force with effect from the date on which the Instruments of Ratification are exchanged.

(VI)
Both Governments agree that their respective Heads will meet again at a mutually convenient time in the future and that, in the meanwhile, the representatives of the two sides will meet to discuss further the modalities and arrangements for the establishment of a durable peace and normalization of relations, including the questions of repatriation of prisoners of war and civilian internees, a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir and the resumption of displomatic relations.

**Sd/- Sd/- Indira Gandhi Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Prime Minister President Republic of India Islamic Republic of Pakistan **

Regarding the clause mentioning LoC, it just proves my point. Bhutto, who some Pakistanis think was the greatest leader ever, did not have the guts to ask Gandhi to return the grabbed lands in Baltistan. That was his intellect and that was his valor. He practically ceded away those areas.

As for the international borders, I’ve already said that India had to return those areas. It was not an achievement for Bhutto at all. Both India and Pakistan have signed many international agreements. Any comparison with Israel looks foolish, to say the least.

So the conclusion is: Bhutto achieved nothing in the Simla agreement but lost many things. Someone quoted Mrs Gandhi’s account on the event in this forum where she said that Bhutto called her early in the morning and pleaded with her to give some concessions. Great leaders don’t do that.

Even if the talks would have failed, prisoners would have returned within a few years and India would have left the occupied lands. We can say that Bhutto did great damage to Pakistan at Simla.

[Murfid]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

If you were not born, ask your elders what iam talking about. Ask anyone who was in senses and lived through this hell? Google it.

It was your duty to furnish proof, not mine. Just proves what I said earlier about you.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Even if we like Bhutto or not he had a charisma, with the reason in Lahore (during 1970 election) it was famous that even the poles won the elections on Peoples party's ticket. He was one person who could have taken the country to new heights, but the way he tried to quell opposing voices through FSF, Dalai camps etc deteriorated the situation.

[Murfid]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Here is what I could find about the situation of Karachi during 1971 war:

Thanks for sharing the links but they comprise of comments on a blog thus having no face value. The good thing about these comments is that they reinforce my account that there were no major damages and mass casualties in Karachi.

[Murfid]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Even if we like Bhutto or not he had a charisma, with the reason in Lahore (during 1970 election) it was famous that even the poles won the elections on Peoples party's ticket. He was one person who could have taken the country to new heights, but the way he tried to quell opposing voices through FSF, Dalai camps etc deteriorated the situation.

Charisma alone can't do any thing. One needs ambition, conviction and a self-less attitude to become a great leader. Bhutto had none of these.

Also in that Mrs. Gandhi's account on Simla, she said that there were no aides during their emergency meeting after Bhutto phoned her and begged her to give some concessions. Except for Benazir. She was a teenager then. Not an elected parliamentarian. Not the foreign minister. Not a senior bureaucrat. Not a party member. She was just the daughter of Bhutto. And just to tell you another thing. Bhutto later appointed her at a foreign office post. He of course thought that he would rule the country for life like a dictator and then his daughter will take over. That was his mentality. That was the real Bhutto.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Thanks for sharing the links but they comprise of comments on a blog thus having no face value. The good thing about these comments is that they reinforce my account that there were no major damages and mass casualties in Karachi.

Not all the links arr from comments of blogs. The first one (talking bombing at Agra Taj colony) is a report showing day by day situation of 1971 war. There is some problem that the pasting of the link here.

Second link is from a site regarding Pakistan defense (I personally doubt about the material), as our army never accept its defeats.

Third one is a comment from blog, but we can't ignore this, because as you confirmed the situation from your relatives the poster of those comments also stating his/ her experience. I still remember PTV drama 'Ghazi Shaheed' and 'Operation Dwarka' which also refer to bombing and casualties of civilians in Karachi in 1971.

Point is Karachi was in danger during 1971 war, regardless of what miracles Bhutto did or did not afterwards.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Charisma alone can't do any thing. One needs ambition, conviction and a self-less attitude to become a great leader. Bhutto had none of these.

Also in that Mrs. Gandhi's account on Simla, she said that there were no aides during their emergency meeting after Bhutto phoned her and begged her to give some concessions. Except for Benazir. She was a teenager then. Not an elected parliamentarian. Not the foreign minister. Not a senior bureaucrat. Not a party member. She was just the daughter of Bhutto. And just to tell you another thing*. Bhutto later appointed her at a foreign office post. He of course thought that he would rule the country for life like a dictator and then his daughter will take over. That was his mentality. That was the real Bhutto.*

I don't find it wrong anyway that Bhutto trained Benazir for politics instead of his sons, which is common phenomenon is feudal. I read that there was some arguments between Nusrat Bhutto and ZAB for preferring Benazir over Murtaza.

[Murfid]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Not all the links arr from comments of blogs. The first one (talking bombing at Agra Taj colony) is a report showing day by day situation of 1971 war. There is some problem that the pasting of the link here.

Second link is from a site regarding Pakistan defense (I personally doubt about the material), as our army never accept its defeats.

Third one is a comment from blog, but we can't ignore this, because as you confirmed the situation from your relatives the poster of those comments also stating his/ her experience. I still remember PTV drama 'Ghazi Shaheed' and 'Operation Dwarka' which also refer to bombing and casualties of civilians in Karachi in 1971.

Point is Karachi was in danger during 1971 war, regardless of what miracles Bhutto did or did not afterwards.

That's what I've said. Karachi might have been in danger but there were no massive damage and fatalities, as Sachaydino is trying and failing to prove.

[Murfid]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

I don't find it wrong anyway that Bhutto trained Benazir for politics instead of his sons, which is common phenomenon is feudal. I read that there was some arguments between Nusrat Bhutto and ZAB for preferring Benazir over Murtaza.

What can I say after you have already made your point. If you find it nothing abnormal, nothing criminal then what can I say?

I don't care who was Bhutto's favorite child. I do care that Bhutto spent taxpayers money to groom his daughter. That he took Benazir with him to the most important meeting when Gandhi came all alone, It is enough to show his true colors. One must give due credit that Gandhi didn't bring her sons to the meeting. She knew that future generations would shred her to pieces if she did that.

[Naabigh]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

I don't care who was Bhutto's favorite child. I do care that Bhutto spent taxpayers money to groom his daughter. That he took Benazir with him to the most important meeting when Gandhi came all alone, It is enough to show his true colors. .

And same is happening in case of Bilawal - what credentials he has else then getting birth in that family ?

On what grounds he was made the chair-person of a party, who acclaims to be Pakistan people's party ?

[TheRealDeal]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

On what grounds he was made the chair-person of a party, who acclaims to be Pakistan people's party ?

A majority vote of the Central Executive Commitee, who moved a motion in this regards.

[Naabigh]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

@ehsan

benazir got married to zardari way after his death. He had no role in picking this thief as her husband.

Fair enough - you are talking sense - so lets talk some real deal ... Zulfiqar ali bhutto was no different from any of the dictators , we had in last 60 plus years ....

It was him and Army generals of that era - who refused to transfer the crown to ' Awami league ' despite their huge win in 1970 .. And we know the result !

Bhutto was nothing but All talk when it comes to Freedom of Press , Judiciary and provincial autonomy !

what ever is happening in Bulchistan thesedays - Bhutto had a fair share in it .. when in 1970 , when NAP formed a government in Bulchistan and Sardar Atta Ullah Mengal was appointed as the CM - He was the one , who dissolved that government on false accusations ... leading towards the start of an Army operation , in which three Army divisions were deployed ...

later on what happened in Hyderabad tribunal - History has recorded all .

Despite labeling himself as a democrat - Bhutto was against the freedom of speech / Press .. Many newspaper such as Huriyat , Jisarat , outlook , Sun were closed by his Government on numerous occasions and baseless cases were registered against them

To Shut the political Voices - FSF was created and the brutality shown by them ( reference in case of Mian Muhammad Tufail ( Jamat-e-Islami ) and Malik Muhammad Qasim ( Muslim League ) refreshed the memories of brutality shown by British forces of pre 1947 era .

To control the judiciary - Bhutto made four Amendments...

Then we all have seen the time , when he went against his close allies .. Muhammad Hanif Ramay , Mr J A rehim - Miraj Muhammad Khan ( who lost his eyes ) . How could one forget what happened to Guys who were the real pillars of PPP .

Allah is the Best of Judges, the Fairest of Them ... So I believe Bhutto reaped what he sow !

[Naabigh]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

A majority vote of the Central Executive Commitee, who moved a motion in this regards.

CEE :D

likes of . Makhdoom Amin Fahim - Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani - Jehangir Bader - Mian Raza Rabbani- Qamar Zaman Kaira and Babar Awan ?

Do you need me explain it further , I hope not since every one knows the Karnamey of above mentioned people of PPP :D

[ehsan]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Fair enough - you are talking sense - so lets talk some real deal ... Zulfiqar ali bhutto was no different from any of the dictators , we had in last 60 plus years ....

It was him and Army generals of that era - who refused to transfer the crown to ' Awami league ' despite their huge win in 1970 .. And we know the result !

Bhutto was nothing but All talk when it comes to Freedom of Press , Judiciary and provincial autonomy !

what ever is happening in Bulchistan thesedays - Bhutto had a fair share in it .. when in 1970 , when NAP formed a government in Bulchistan and Sardar Atta Ullah Mengal was appointed as the CM - He was the one , who dissolved that government on false accusations ... leading towards the start of an Army operation , in which three Army divisions were deployed ...

later on what happened in Hyderabad tribunal - History has recorded all .

Despite labeling himself as a democrat - Bhutto was against the freedom of speech / Press .. Many newspaper such as Huriyat , Jisarat , outlook , Sun were closed by his Government on numerous occasions and baseless cases were registered against them

To Shut the political Voices - FSF was created and the brutality shown by them ( reference in case of Mian Muhammad Tufail ( Jamat-e-Islami ) and Malik Muhammad Qasim ( Muslim League ) refreshed the memories of brutality shown by British forces of pre 1947 era .

To control the judiciary - Bhutto made four Amendments...

Then we all have seen the time , when he went against his close allies .. Muhammad Hanif Ramay , Mr J A rehim - Miraj Muhammad Khan ( who lost his eyes ) . How could one forget what happened to Guys who were the real pillars of PPP .

Allah is the Best of Judges, the Fairest of Them ... So I believe Bhutto reaped what he sow !

Thing with Bhutto is that his opponents dont see anything he did as good, his supporters sees no wrong. Till emotions can calm down and a realistic look can be established where both his achievements and weaknesses can be analysed properly there is no point in carrying on with this discussion. Personally I think he did a lot of good and a lot of damage as well. I had never liked his nationalisation of industries and his arrogant ways but also pay tribute to his brilliance and his nuclear programme without which Pakistan today probably wont exist. No one is an angel everyone makes mistake, name one leader in Pakistan who hasn't, name one party today which is working for national consensus. The fault is ours, in our hatred of various parties and leaders we will support anyone, trouble is we are driven by emotions and not reality, me included.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Can you shed some information about Hyderabad tribunal?

As far as the brutalities were rendered to his opponents, my family has gone through that that's why I'll concur with that. Throwing people behind bars (similar to missing persons of today), threats of burning their houses/kidnapping the women of the house and so on. For posting people abroad the background check used to be conducted and if it was established that the person was from opposition he was dropped and a person who had failed the exam would be appointed instead.

[TheRealDeal]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

his nuclear programme without which Pakistan today probably wont exist. No one is an angel everyone makes mistake, name one leader in Pakistan who hasn't, name one party today which is working for national consensus.

You said it.

Without this, and many other things Bhutto did, Pakistan would not even exist today.

[Naabigh]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Thing with Bhutto is that his opponents dont see anything he did as good, his supporters sees no wrong. Till emotions can calm down and a realistic look can be established where both his achievements and weaknesses can be analysed properly there is no point in carrying on with this discussion. Personally I think he did a lot of good and a lot of damage as well. I had never liked his nationalisation of industries and his arrogant ways but also pay tribute to his brilliance and his nuclear programme without which Pakistan today probably wont exist. No one is an angel everyone makes mistake, name one leader in Pakistan who hasn't, name one party today which is working for national consensus. The fault is ours, in our hatred of various parties and leaders we will support anyone, trouble is we are driven by emotions and not reality, me included.

And the reality is - he did more damage to pakistan , as compared to his good deeds ...

Tum nay loota hai sadyon hamara sakoon,
Ab na hum per chalay ga tumhara fasoon,
Chara gar main tumhain kiss tara say kahoon?
Tum naheen charaagar,
Koi maanay magar,
Main naheen maanta,
Main naheen jaanta

[Naabigh]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

Can you shed some information about Hyderabad tribunal?.

The Hyderabad tribunal which also known as Hyderabad conspiracy case , was a judicial tribunal established to prosecute opposition politicians of the National Awami Party on the charges of treason.

The orders were made by ZAB to Set up the tribunal , where he also banned NAP on 10 February 1975. The Supreme Court of Pakistan was told that the party was working for an independent Pakhtunistan and greater Balochistan at the cost of Pakistan’s territorial integrity.

A total of 52 people were arrested. Those arrested from the National Awami Party leadership included Khan Abdul Wali Khan, Khan Amirzadah Khan, Syed Kaswar Gardezi, Ghaus Bakhsh Bizenjo, Nawab Khair Bakhsh Marri, Mir Gul Khan Nasir, Sardar Ataullah Mengal, Habib Jalib, Barrister Azizullah Shaikh, Aslam Baluch (Sheikh-Hussani), Aslam Kurd, Saleem Kurd, Sher Mohammad Marri (General Sherof), Najam Sethi a*nd even prominent critics of Bhutto within his own Pakistan Peoples Party were also arrested.* Reference Persistent Praetorianism: Pakistan's Third Military Regime by William L. Richter ]

The 3rd amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan was passed to give wide legal scope to the state to define anti-state activities.

Nawab Akbar Bugti in 1973 claimed at a public meeting that Wali Khan and Ataullah Mengal shared with him the "Independent Balochistan Plan", through which Balochistan could be placed "under the heel of one or more foreign power".
**
Isnt it Ironic that his grandsons are working for the same cause now **

The charges put by Government were so baseless that In response to one of the charges before the Hyderabad Tribunal, that wali khan been sent Rs 20 million by Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi through a certain emissary, Wali Khan sarcastically filed a civil suit against the emissary for the recovery of the Rs 20 million.

The government used extensive means to validate the charges levelled against the NAP, while no proof was ever shown of the Party or its leaders role in the murder of Sherpao, a strong state run media smear campaign was launched which attributed any argument for the acquittal or release of the NAP leaders as anti-Pakistani.**

And if Wali khan was anti Pakistan - then why PPP of ZAB and Benzair Bhutto is in close bond with ANP ?**

[TheRealDeal]

Re: Mistakes of Bhutto

And the reality is - he did more damage to pakistan , as compared to his good deeds ...

Tum nay loota hai sadyon hamara sakoon, Ab na hum per chalay ga tumhara fasoon, Chara gar main tumhain kiss tara say kahoon? Tum naheen charaagar, Koi maanay magar, Main naheen maanta, Main naheen jaanta

As Ehsan said, Pakistan would not even be around without ZAB.

Kids like you don't even know what your talking about.