Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Benazir was an intelligent lady. How come she couldn’t read Zardari? 
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Heard Mr Amin Faheem too was one contender ,and I think Faisal Saleh Hyat [not sure ] was too
BB should have arranged a soymber to decide
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
When Ali_Syed says that ZAB saved Pakistan, you nod your head in > 
When Ali_Syed says that Zardari is destroying Pakistan, you wave your head in > :nono:
And you leave all of us > 
No one here seems to have any major problem with ZAB. I personally like the guy for his post-partition work for the country and the nation. I also subscribe to the ‘judicial murder’ theory of ZAB. The charisma he had, was not seen in anyone else till this date — including Benazir and even Imran Khan.
Having said that, I also feel that post-ZAB PPP is taking the country back with every passing day. It’s fine if you love ZAB, but it’s not fine if you love someone else just because he happens to be a relative of ZAB. And I also have problems when it is drilled into my head that it could only be Bhutto family that can head the PPP and rule the country.
ZAB is gone, may his soul rest in eternal peace, but even if he was a shaheed, how does it make Pakistan better?
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
ZAB and Benzair did alot for Pakistan, despite immense pressure from establishment and other elements. Zardari Shahib ne kia kia haii abhi tek? he should reflect upon himself, wht did he do for Pakistan? he had four years to prove himself, but no sadly, he has almost taken us back 1947 :(
Honestly, despite the fact that he is the chairman of PPP and all that, frankly speaking, I feel that he doesnt even deserve to be in PPP, let alone hold President position!
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Ironic that no one mentioned that Bhutto was the "son" of Ayub for eight years. He was also the covering candidate for "daddy" in the infamous presidential elections and ensured that Ayub win from West Pakistan. Except Karachi of course where Bhutto was unable to find any support for his master. Interesting to note that Bhutto didn't get tangible electoral support from Karachi in the 1970 election either and avenged that insult in 1972.
Before that, he was licking the boots of another dictator Suckunder Mirza and had bagged a cabinet post. Some say that he married Nusrat because Mirza and his wife were also from the Iranian stock and this helped Bhutto a great deal. He would have otherwise died as a semi-known lawyer at most.
As for those praising that he "won" back the lands, Kargil and thousands of sq. kms of Baltistan area was also lost as part of the Simla agreement. As for the prisoners, he did not achieve anything. India would not have been able to keep them for eternity. Both India and Pakistan were signatory to the Geneva Convention and the prisoners would have returned anyway.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
^ there are many threads on this board which discuss Bhutto's relations with Ayub, I didnt want to touch that here. Can you provide any link of the lands of Kargil and Baltistan traded for the land in Sindh and Punjab?
This thread I wanted to discuss the mistakes he made during his tenure as the President/PM.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
^
Kargil link
Story of Pakistan | The Story of Kargil
We cannot ignore his background when discussing his personality. Also, he was the foreign minister during the Ayub era and thus played a key role in the downfall of Pakistan. He was also a minister in the Suckunder Mirza’s cabinet. Bhutto’s analysis should start from that time.
You are forgetting another feather in his cap. He was also the civilian martial law administrator. Speaking of that era, mad nationalization, severe restrictions on press, FSF, Dalai camps, Balochistan, NWFP, language riots, election rigging and authoritarian rule comes to mind.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
^ As far as division of Pakistan is concerned we discussed it here: http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/549022-responsibility-for-1971-tragedy.html
During the 1971 war, Pakistanis sensing the gravity of matter opened up the war on Western fronts, believing that if they could wrest large swathes of lands from the west they could trade that in for East Pakistan. But that proved to be an overall disaster, not only did we lose Bengal but over 90000 army men had to surrender. Where as even on the Western borders Indians had captured areas in Shakargarh Tehsil, Kargil, and large areas in the Rann of Katch (Sindh). India could have kept all of those areas as Israel has kept to itself, and I guess keeping in view of the importance of Karachi, any one would have gone for the areas Bhutto traded in for Kargil.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
^
It's a baloney to say that India would have kept those areas. There is also little truth about Karachi being captured.
Pakistan captured Indian areas in the 1965 war and had to return them. Drawing analogies with Israel won't work as the entire country is built up on grabbed lands. We are talking about two independent nations here who were signatory to many international conventions. I don't think Israel even know about those conventions let alone ratifying them. It would have endanger its very existence then.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
As far as what I have been able to find out Indians had occupied about 5000 square miles of land in sindh alone and they were near Hyderabad when the ceasefire was declared. I have not been able to find a map to see exactly which areas were in the control of both countries.
1965 and 1971 were a bit different as in 65 both countries had occupied lands that's why they swapped them, where as in 71 Pakistan was the loser.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
^
It's a baloney to say that India would have kept those areas. There is also little truth about Karachi being captured.
Pakistan captured Indian areas in the 1965 war and had to return them. Drawing analogies with Israel won't work as the entire country is built up on grabbed lands. We are talking about two independent nations here who were signatory to many international conventions. I don't think Israel even know about those conventions let alone ratifying them. It would have endanger its very existence then.
**When karachi was bombarded like hell in 1971 where were you? The trains with full loads of people running away from karachi, where were you? When India bombarded Dockyard sinking a number of ships, the oil storage were burnt like sun at night where the falmes you could see above Mazar-e-Quaid for many days, where were you? Just one bomb dropped at buliding at Agra Taj Colony converted in to deep hole of 20 feet when more than 300 hunderd people died in that building where were you? India contineously attacked Karachi day and night at will without any resistance from armed forces of Pakistan, where were you?
It is a shame people who were born after these tragedies talking as experts without knowing the ground realities actually what hell we have gone through?**
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
**When karachi was bombarded like hell in 1971 where were you? The trains with full loads of people running away from karachi, where were you? When India bombarded Dockyard sinking a number of ships, the oil storage were burnt like sun at night where the falmes you could see above Mazar-e-Quaid for many days, where were you? Just one bomb dropped at buliding at Agra Taj Colony converted in to deep hole of 20 feet when more than 300 hunderd people died in that building where were you? India contineously attacked Karachi day and night at will without any resistance from armed forces of Pakistan, where were you?
It is a shame people who were born after these tragedies talking as experts without knowing the ground realities actually what hell we have gone through?**
Blatant lies. Where is the proof? And no train loads of people ran away from Karachi.
I've read your other posts and see a pattern of falsehood spread there. That's why I'm keep the reply short.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
As far as what I have been able to find out Indians had occupied about 5000 square miles of land in sindh alone and they were near Hyderabad when the ceasefire was declared. I have not been able to find a map to see exactly which areas were in the control of both countries.
1965 and 1971 were a bit different as in 65 both countries had occupied lands that's why they swapped them, where as in 71 Pakistan was the loser.
Sorry but I've to say this. First you didn't even know about Kargil and the 1971 connection. You only mentioned that in your later post after I made my point.
Please come up with valid points.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Read her biography. she didn’t like the man at first, but after getting pressure from Nusrat Bhutoo, she had to marry this … 
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
May God bless both the ladies…
http://forums.psychcentral.com/images/smiliesc/th_smiley_pray.gif
but not this guy 
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Blatant lies. Where is the proof? Your rants will not matter here. And no train loads of people ran away from Karachi.
I've read your other posts and see a pattern of falsehood spread there. That's why I'm keep the reply short. There is no use replying to ranters.
If you were not born, ask your elders what iam talking about. Ask anyone who was in senses and lived through this hell? Google it.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Anyone, who refuses to agree that Karachi was not attacked should search for Operation Trident & Operation Python.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Sorry but I've to say this. First you didn't even know about Kargil and the 1971 connection. You only mentioned that in your later post after I made my point.
Please come up with valid points.
I have not seen the times, besides this is one topic which out history books try to shy away from and there would be some reason for that. If you have got some information with proofs it would be good.
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
However here’s the draft of the Simla agreement. Both forces moves to their sides of the international border, but there was no such border on the Kashmir side. Therefore the Line of Control (before 1971 it was ceasefire line but its not an international border) was chalked out which would have meant Pakistan ceding some areas to them.
Simla Agreement, 2 July 1972
This agreement on Bilateral Relations between India and Pakistan was signed after the 1971 India-Pakistan War, in which Pakistan was defeated conclusively and which resulted in the creation of Bangladesh. India refrained from attacking or finishing off Pakistan and signed this agreement with the hope that henceforth the countries in the region would be able to live in peace with each other. The then Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, also promised the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi, that his country would accept the Line of Control (LOC) in the state of J&K as the de facto border and would not try ot de-stabilise it.
This was not formally entered in the agreement because Bhutto said it would cause domestic problems for him at this juncture. Mrs Gandhi magnanimously accepted his promise and did not formalise that part of the agreement. But Pakistan, as later events were to prove, never kept its part of the deal.
The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflct and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the sub-continent, so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing task of advancing the welfare of their peoples.
In order to achieve this objective, the Government of India and the Govern- ment of Pakistan have agreed as follows:
(i) That the principles and purposes off the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the countries;
(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peaceful and harmonious relations.
(iii) That the pre-requisite for reconciliation, good-neighbourliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both countries to peaceful co-existence, respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty and non-interference in each other’s internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit;
(iv) That the basic issues and causes of conflict which have bedevilled the relations between the two countries of the last twenty-five years shall be resolved by peaceful means;
(v) That they shall always respect each other’s national unity, territorial integrity, political independence and sovereign equality;
(vi) That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, they shall refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other;
(II) Both Governments will take all steps within their power to prevent hostile propaganda direcdted against each other.
Both countries will encourage the dissemination of such information as would promote the development of friendly relations between them;
(III) In order progressively to restore and normalize relations between the two countries step by step, it was agreed that;
(i) Steps shall be taken to resume communications, postal, telegraphic, sea, land including border posts, and air links including overflights;
(ii) Appropriate steps shall be taken to promote travel facilities for the nationals of the other country;
(iii) Trade and co-operation in economic and other agreed fields will be resumed as far as possible;
(iv) Exchange in the fields of science and culture will be promoted.
In this connextion delegations from the two countries will meet from time to time to work out the necessary details.
(IV) In order to initiate the process of the establishment of durable peace, both Governments agree that:
**(i) Indian and Pakistani forces shall be withdrawn to their side of the international border;
**
(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat of the use of force in violation of this line;
(iii) The withdrawals shall commence upon entry into force of this Agreement and shall be completed within a period of thirty days thereof.
(V) This Agreement will be subject to ratification by both countries in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures, and will come into force with effect from the date on which the Instruments of Ratification are exchanged.
(VI)
Both Governments agree that their respective Heads will meet again at a mutually convenient time in the future and that, in the meanwhile, the representatives of the two sides will meet to discuss further the modalities and arrangements for the establishment of a durable peace and normalization of relations, including the questions of repatriation of prisoners of war and civilian internees, a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir and the resumption of displomatic relations.
**Sd/- Sd/- Indira Gandhi Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Prime Minister President Republic of India Islamic Republic of Pakistan **
Re: Mistakes of Bhutto
Anyone, who refuses to agree that Karachi was not attacked should search for Operation Trident & Operation Python.
Who said that Karachi was not attacked? What I did was to expose the blatant lies by well-known ranters of this forum.
Yes, there were some attacks but no train loads of people ran away. No 300 people died in Agra Taj. My uncle was a doctor at the civil hospital and my elder cousins also volunteered at that time. I've corroborated with them and they told me that the total civilian death toll in Karachi during the entirety of the war did not exceed 800-1,000 people at most.