Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

[arshad5]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet or not the marriage to Mohammadi Begum should have taken place due to the following reasons:
a) Mirza had some leverage over Mohammadi's father, due to some land that belonged to his (Mohammadi's father's) sister's husband.
b) Mirza published his prophecy to discourage other people from sending proposals for Mohammadi.
c) Mirza used threats of disowning family members and divorces to intimidate family members into supporting his marriage proposal.
d) Mirza used favours to buy influence from family members.
e) Mirza used threats of death should she be not married to him.
f) Mirza used god's name to influence people into accepting the proposal as god had wanted Mirza to wed Mohammadi.
g) Mirza offered financial support and help should the marriage proposal be accepted.

I say that despite using every tool at his disposal, it is a miracle that the marriage did not take place.

[psyah]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@lethal_kamikaze

Peace kchughati,

What you wrote above, is also written in arabic but the translation is different :hmmm: (talking about Ayenah Kamalat Islam)

Peace lethal kamikaze bro

This Arabic piece is a mishmash of several ayat and incoherent and incorrect grammar connecting them together.

This is the translation and no better fit can be made - the reason why it sounds odd is because it is grammatically nonsensical in those places.

***And he said to him, to be married to your daughter first, then to obtain from your possession. And he said, I am instructed to give you whatever you require from the World and the Other World with her and it is best for you with blessings after, on you giving me your first daughter, the one who is the eldest. And that what is agreed between us if you accept it, you will find me acceptable. But if you don’t then know that God then informed me that if another man gets married to her afterwards he will not bless them and if you don’t give her to me to marry then calamities will befall you, which will end with your death and so she will die after three years of nikkah, nay your death will be closer. Near is the payment on you and you are from the heedless ones and also her husband will die after two years and six months – It is a decree from God so do as you want and I am only from the advisers and then he frowned and was from the people who leave. ***

Read the accounts of Musa (AS), the treaty with the Makkans and Surah Abasa Watawalla in Juz 'Amma and because of this mishmash the tenses are wrong too … there is a switch between a conditional statement which then becomes a warning and then becomes a condemnation.

I mean what sort of passage do you see where first somebody says - if you accept then I will accept - but then go off on a tangent to say … but if you don’t accept it then this will happen? The first is an offer the second is a warning and then later it outright condemns them … so what is the point of the offer if the condemnation is being done?

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@psyah

Well … you said to me earlier that there is no revelation but there are so many accounts written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to have received revelation **

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**This is is proof that you do believe he received revelation similar to the Qur’an … you are saying the above is the Kalam of Allah (SWT) … This “I have observed” is being suggested Allah (SWT) is Conversing … This is all new and it is being represented as scripture … This will not be the case of either Mahdi or of Isa (AS) … they will not bring new material like this …

My friend, you have a very weird view of the “revelations”. According to your doctrine, there is NO wahi or revelation other than Quran. Are you suggesting that so many prophecies attributed to the holy prophet (pbuh) were his own concoctions or whims (na-auzubillah). There is no express mention of Mahdi and Masih in Quran then how did the prophet (pbuh) got to know this information?? Why did sometimes he use to pause when asked to explain something e.g., when asked to explain the verse of “Aakhareena minhum..”, he paused and then placed his hand on the shoulders of hazrat salman farsi (ra) and told the hadith of “faith taken to Pleiades …”. Where did that information come from? who told him. Do you consider that info at par with Quran. Apart from the holy prophet himself, there are several examples of wali-ullah getting revelations. I will try to post some examples sometime. Similar sort of allegations were raised by yousaf ludihanvi and book by M. Khalid “Rah-e-Huda” https://www.alislam.org/urdu/pdf/Rah-e-Huda-20080515MN.pdf answered all those allegations in fair amount of detail. you should have a look at that book if you are interested.

As far as the revelations of Mirza sahib (as) are concerned, we DO NOT consider them equivalent to a divine book like Quran but still those revelations were from Allah for his help and guidance. Unlike your Masih who, as per your explanation, will be without express help and guidance from Allah, the real Masih-e-Muhammadi was indeed a Mahdi- the guided one.

I will talk about other stuff in your post and the begum issue later.

[psyah]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@kchughtai

My friend, you have a very weird view of the “revelations”. According to your doctrine, there is NO wahi or revelation other than Quran. Are you suggesting that so many prophecies attributed to the holy prophet (pbuh) were his own concoctions or whims (na-auzubillah). There is no express mention of Mahdi and Masih in Quran then how did the prophet (pbuh) got to know this information?? Why did sometimes he use to pause when asked to explain something e.g., when asked to explain the verse of “Aakhareena minhum..”, he paused and then placed his hand on the shoulders of hazrat salman farsi (ra) and told the hadith of “faith taken to Pleiades …”. Where did that information come from? who told him. Do you consider that info at par with Quran. Apart from the holy prophet himself, there are several examples of wali-ullah getting revelations. I will try to post some examples sometime. Similar sort of allegations were raised by yousaf ludihanvi and book by M. Khalid “Rah-e-Huda” https://www.alislam.org/urdu/pdf/Rah-e-Huda-20080515MN.pdf answered all those allegations in fair amount of detail. you should have a look at that book if you are interested.

As far as the revelations of Mirza sahib (as) are concerned, we DO NOT consider them equivalent to a divine book like Quran but still those revelations were from Allah for his help and guidance. Unlike your Masih who, as per your explanation, will be without express help and guidance from Allah, the real Masih-e-Muhammadi was indeed a Mahdi- the guided one.

I will talk about other stuff in your post and the begum issue later.

Peace kchughtai

1. Kalam of Allah (SWT) - as in Qur’an - With reference to Divine Speech - noting the term “We” or the Royal Personal Pronoun exists only in Al-Kitaab - This has been sealed and no more of this will come. (This is directly poured in to the heart bypassing all senses)

2. Hadith Qudsi - Direct instruction of Allah (SWT) other than through Revelation - sealed - Acquired through some sensory medium - These will not be in the style of Qur’anic Ayat.

3. Wisdom - Divinely Inspired words of prophets - Isa (AS) will have these (this is not direct revelation) - these are feelings and moods and angelic assistance, which are guided - these are without taint in prophets.

4. Prophetic Dreams - Isa (AS) - These are imagery that require interpretation - some normal people can get these or part of these in their dreams.

5. Interpretive capabilities of scripture and high intellect - some people can interpret symbolic visions and have the knowledge to extract sound rulings - these will be done effortlessly by Sayyiduna Isa (AS), but other people can do them.

The type of revelation that you claim and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claims he received does not fit this pattern. Rather I can show you where the words that are used by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a resembling the Qur’anic style … which indicates to me that such phrases were borrowed … especially if you then claim that it is not Divine Speech … but then what is it?

[Leap_of_Faith]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

With all due respect to everyone here, I also would like to join this Important conversation. I assure you to be as polite and respectful to other views. However despite reading the thread Multiple times from pages 1-4 what is the core concept or idea of this thread? If anyone can sum up in few words or sentences the core concept/idea/agenda of this topic.
Greatly appreciated your kind assistance.

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

^ I can very well understand your confusion since these thread often start with a very specific question and then all sort of issues are dragged into it to keep everyone reasonably confused.

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

I am posting a few excerpts from the book “shaitan key chailay (p. 251 onwards)” for all those who actually wants to know. The topic is also covered in rah-e-huda.

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[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

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[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

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[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

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[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@Leap_of_Faith

With all due respect to everyone here, I also would like to join this Important conversation. I assure you to be as polite and respectful to other views. However despite reading the thread Multiple times from pages 1-4 what is the core concept or idea of this thread? If anyone can sum up in few words or sentences the core concept/idea/agenda of this topic.

Greatly appreciated your kind assistance.

In few words – The blessed Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the Last Prophet and that there will no prophet in any disguise/form after him but only a liar and a charlatan make such a claim.

The following ahadith will suffice:

There will arise thirty impostors in my Ummah and each one of them will pronounce to the world that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets of God and no Prophet will come after me. (Abu Dawood, Tirmizi)

In his farewell sermon the blessed Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said the following:

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

The Last Sermon (Khutbah) of Prophet Muhammad (Farewell Sermon) : Wisdom from Quran and Hadith : IqraSense.com

@kchughtai

^ I can very well understand your confusion since these thread often start with a very specific question and then all sort of issues are dragged into it to keep everyone reasonably confused.

Confusion?? What confusion?

Speaking for yourself?

[obaid1982]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

In few words – The blessed Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the Last Prophet and that there will no prophet in any disguise/form after him but only a liar and a charlatan make such a claim.

Excluding Issa (AS) of course, who, against all quranic teachings, went alive to heaven as if he was the most beloved one of Allah (helping Christian concepts eh). And naozobillah Allah had no other way of protecting him from jews except to raise him alive. Whom despite being a prophet to Bani Israel, will descend upon Ummah of Prophet (SAW) and lead the way ... you might as well consider him son of God like christians do

Pardon me, but unlike a game of cricket, prophet DO NOT GET RETIRED HURT only to come back towards the end of the match to save the game.

[psyah]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Excluding Issa (AS) of course, who, against all quranic teachings, went alive to heaven as if he was the most beloved one of Allah (helping Christian concepts eh). And naozobillah Allah had no other way of protecting him from jews except to raise him alive. Whom despite being a prophet to Bani Israel, will descend upon Ummah of Prophet (SAW) and lead the way ... you might as well consider him son of God like christians do

Pardon me, but unlike a game of cricket, prophet DO NOT GET RETIRED HURT only to come back towards the end of the match to save the game.

obaid1982 ... Your language is of mockery and serves no intellectual value ... RasoolAllah (SAW) went to heaven too ... And came back alive ... So what is your point?

Isa (AS)'s death is more important to the Christians if you follow history you will learn that early Christians who said he was alive and didn't get crucified were persecuted and killed off. The ?Romans needed a candidate to be the embodiment of their beliefs ... That was death and resurrection ... They also wanted to say he (AS) was died for their sins. It is your belief that sides with the Christians not ours ...

[obaid1982]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Compared to the mockery and insulting of Ahmadiyyah beliefs and personnel that is made on the forum, this is just a drop in bucket. Moreover, I have merely mentioned my opinion of your beliefs and presented you with how it appears to others who dont believe in such things.

Whether or not RasoolAllah (saw) went to heaven with body, its an entirely different thing to have a journey of heaven, vs living in heaven for millenniums. Your beliefs give more credibility to Christianity's concept of Issa (as) being supernatural, whom you attribute to be not only a prophet towards Bani Israel but also Muslim Ummah, clearly contradicting quranic teaching of him being a prophet for Bani Israel.

The only reason you need Issa (as) to come back from heaven is so that he may die in this world and fulfill quranic verse Kullu Nafsin Zaiqatul Maut, which remained irrelevant to him for centuries.

[psyah]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Compared to the mockery and insulting of Ahmadiyyah beliefs and personnel that is made on the forum, this is just a drop in bucket. Moreover, I have merely mentioned my opinion of your beliefs and presented you with how it appears to others who dont believe in such things.

Whether or not RasoolAllah (saw) went to heaven with body, its an entirely different thing to have a journey of heaven, vs living in heaven for millenniums. Your beliefs give more credibility to Christianity's concept of Issa (as) being supernatural, whom you attribute to be not only a prophet towards Bani Israel but also Muslim Ummah, clearly contradicting quranic teaching of him being a prophet for Bani Israel.

The only reason you need Issa (as) to come back from heaven is so that he may die in this world and fulfill quranic verse Kullu Nafsin Zaiqatul Maut, which remained irrelevant to him for centuries.

Peace obaid1982

Neither your perception of Isa (AS) nor your reasoning for our need for the second coming is cogent. The reason we believe in the second coming is because this belief is as per our scriptures and it is a belief that the inheritors of Isa (AS)'s true message had ...

It is not because of kullu nafsin zaiqatulmawt ... but rather the Ascension and this verse both are true ...

Even you believe in the return of Isa (AS) but on one hand you claim Isa (AS) came only for the Jews ... but on the other hand you still assert Mirza Ghluam Ahmad is Isa (AS) and you assert he came to the people in India ... and you by inheritance ... so you need to be consistent ... If you argue that Isa (AS) only came for the Jews then don't at the same time assert Isa (AS) is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ... And I think you agree that they are not the same ... you claim Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was Masih and Mahdi ... yet our hadith that speak of the second coming mention Isa (AS) by name and do not mention Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by name ... It is funny because you use the hadith proudly to say "there is no Mahdi but Isa" - but you don't believe Isa (AS) will be back at all anyway ... And you rely in fact on the ahadith of Mahdi to make your claim that Ahmad = the name of the Mahdi ... which is the same name as The Seal of the Prophets (SAW) ... Muhammad - but even if you say it is Ahmad - then your leader's name is really Ghulam Ahmad not Ahmad ... but all of this is pointless really ... because if you really believed that then you should be looking for a hadith that says ... "There is no Isa again only Mahdi" ... The hadith you use to support yourself is the wrong way round ... it helps us - it specifically mentions Isa (AS) by name it does not say Masih (by title) ... and denies the Mahdi and your rely on Mahdi accounts to equate Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to them by name ... So you are caught up in a fix ... and that troubles you and that is the reason why you use such mockery towards us ...

As for living in heaven for millenia - I do not only believe that is the maqam of Isa (AS) but the maqam of all martyrs and prophets and I believe all heaven dwellers will be alive forever after judgment ... I do not believe that it is any different or difficult for Allah (SWT) to put us in heaven forever before we die or after we die and are raised again ... I believe we enter Jannah in bodies that are made for us ... and I reconfirm that there is no big feat in keeping Isa (AS) in heaven before death for Allah (SWT) ... all things are easy for Him ... And if you think that we say Isa (AS) is supernatural then you will also have to say that we believe the whole of humanity is just as supernatural ... because we believe in Adam (AS) being made in heaven and sent to Earth - the like that I know you do not believe in ... But we do ... so if you think we believe that Isa (AS) is supernatural then you should know that we believe it is no different to the creation of Adam (AS) and the rest of humanity is just as supernatural for us ... The difference however between Christianity and Islamic orthodoxy that you are not admitting is that the Christian idea of supernatural existence of Isa (AS) is because they say he is God and of the same substance as God - And if you knew our aqidah you would know that we never make that claim and Pure is Allah (SWT) from all similarity let alone of being the same substance as anything else that is even if the word substance is even allowed for Him - which in strictness it is not. No we cannot be blamed for deifying Isa (AS) that is a horrid accusation and slander on Islamic orthodoxy and it shines dishonesty on all who attempt to claim that ... The purest form of Tawheed resides with us ... and we are proud of that without any claims or arrogance. For all Praise is for Allah (SWT).

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

peace everyone,
I am not here to jump in this topic about whatever you guys are talking about, and frankly speaking, I'm not in the mood of reading 5 pages to get the sense of what this thread is about. I will however answer the last post of psyah, if I may.

I think psyah knows what our belief is, and we have presented our belief in a very loud and clear manner for all those questions that you're still raising.

We do NOT believe in the literal coming of Jesus (as), the one who was the literal son of Mary(as), the one who was sent to Bani Israel, the one who was sent in Nazareth, and the one who was of reddish complexion. No, we believe He(as) died, and died a natural death. And to prove this, we present various Quranic verses as well as ahadith that is parallel to this belief.

Because we believe in the same ahadith books as you do, we also do believe in the ahadith which mentions the coming of Ibn e Maryam. However, since we believe the 'actual' Jesus (as) has passed away, someone with the same characteristics will come, whose advent will be in similar era to that when the 'actual' Jesus (as) came. However, unlike you, we look at this belief, in its totality, and do not just satisfy our brains just by some ahadith which you explain according to your liking and neglect the other ones. We look at ahadith related to dajjal, we look at ahadith related to Jesus(as) being dead or alive, we look at Quran, and what Allah says regarding the death or ascension of Jesus A.S in Quran. We look at the physical features of Jesus of Nazareth vs the Jesus mentioned in ahadith, and many other proofs which draws our belief.

So, i hope this is clear. Jesus a.s of nazareth is dead. Jesus a.s mentioned in ahadith is a metaphorical person, and we draw this conclusion based on other proofs from ahadith as I mentioned above.

We do not believe Jesus a.s is literally alive, as this is against Quran and ahadith. This belief has no legs to stand on.

What is really hard for you to justify is the dual belief of finality of prophet with the exception of the coming of Jesus. So, I really think you should have a clear stance on this before you start thinking whose Jesus and whose not, and who we think Jesus is.