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*Originally posted by mo_best: *
You seriously need to listen to some scholars man.
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What's the fascination with scholars? If indeed "the greatest miracle ever is Al Quran", why do you need to have everything interpreted for you? Why would Allah have made it so hard for the common man to understand? But then in my humble opinion I question as to why God would have sent down a book and rules, supposedly for all of mankind, which only addresses issues based on the culture of the nomadic desert warrior. I mean if Arabs can't even fully understand it, how can anyone expect cultures as varied as Europe and China possibly comprehend?
Listen man,
when you need knowledge on Maths, you go to a Maths teacher-someone who is trained/educated in that field. Same with Islam, proper Scholars are versed in all the tenets of Islamic law and Islamic faith and can thus guide us Islamically.
If we could all make our own interprtations there would be no need for any of the great imams.
I'm not sure on the meaning of your post, but if your questioning Al Quran as the word of Allah then your lost.
So how do you know which scholars to listen to? I'm sure there's as many opinions as there are scholars. When I want to study maths, I study a maths book. I don't need a maths scholar to interpret it for me and guide me mathsmatically (and maths books aren't even perfect or a miracle!)
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Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
**The Old Man*, Glad to see you here :) So, does Bible define what a miracle is? If no, what is your argument behind the belief you stated in a good straightforward manner?
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The Bible does not define what a miracle is. What we do find in the Bible is that whenever some occurrance happened that couldn't be explained by the then known science/reason/logic, that it was called a miracle by the scribes.
I base my understanding/meaning of the word on what the dictionary say about the word. If anything can be explained according to the laws of science, it is no miracle. Anything else has an explanation and although wonderful, is not a miracle. Many things that in the past were classified "miracles" or scorcery might not really be miracles/magic. Whenever natural laws are overcome, I accept it as a miracle.
Not only could people representing God do miracles according to the Bible, also some people representing the forces of Satan did miracles, e.a. the miracles/wonders that Moses did to impress/convince the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, were some duplicated by the magicians of Pharoah. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharoah and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharoah summoned the wise men and scorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: Each one threw down their staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. - Ex.7v10-11 What is important in this instance is that God's power is proved stronger than the power of Satan because Aaron's staff swallowed the others.
The performing of miracles does not prove without doubt that a person is send by God. We find various references in the Bible to non-Godly people doing miracles. Miracles are though used by God as signs for people to see His power, glory, or make people attentive to what He wants to say/do. The word translated "miracle" in the New Testament 23 times, is also translated 50 times as "sign", 3 times as "wonder", and 1 time as "token".
The Tru miracle of the Quran
A miracle is something which breaks the natural laws of the universe.
There are many scientific miracles in the quran, explaining scientific facts which the muslims could not have ever known unless they had equipment now at that time or they information came from the creator of the universe via the messengers.
Allah (swt) has shown many miracles via the prophets & messengers but they have all died except Isa (aslam). The creator has left a miracle for all mankind to witness.
The miracle of the quran is the language. It is a miracle which can be witnessed, observed by anyone who uses his mind, not the emotions.
In short you can read the book Faith and Progress from the website below.
http://www.khilafah.org/content/korg/books/n detail
It also goes through proof of a creator, why we need messengers etc.
To summarize the above thread & the opinions expressed by the majority of guppies; it’s safe to say that those who believe in miracles to be literal go with the following reasoning:
-- We believe in a certain scripture to be flawless & truthful, the scripture tells us so & so happened and as we cannot understand it any other way, so we believe!
Can I ask the above group that based on their above mentioned reasoning in believing the miracles, do they use the same yard stick when confronted by the miracles reported to be performed by the founders of other religions?
Krishna’s miracles are pretty profound & most Hindus believe them to be literal as it’s written in their scripture. I recently read some of the stories of the Native American spirits & of those ‘elders’ who could be one with the spirits & did some amazing things. So, is the belief restricted to only the scripture of their choice & if so, then how can they refute or explain the miracles performed by the people of other religions?
Did I miss someone other than AAG, who believe miracles to be within the law of nature?
There are two other sub-discussions that started here. (1) Is Qur’an a Miracle? (2) Did Islam & Prophet Muhammad (saw) abolish the magic like miracles of the previous prophets of Allah, if so; Why?
Both of these require a thread of their own. And hopefully people who feel it necessary to discuss it further will start their own thread.
the quran no doubt is a miracle
miracle enough is that it is the only unchanged, in its original form religious literature to date..in the world today. ok if thats not enough, its 1400 years old and is speaking of scientific discovers from the year 2000, creation of the nebulas. ok thats still not good enough to prove it a miracle...then in the quran itself it speaks of those that believe teh quran's accuracy as a "coincidence"
surat al muzamil Allah almighty says that we will prove them wrong by 19.
19 is yet, just a number....isnt it?
ahmad deedat studied into this:
19 is a number. Math is a science. An absolute science that is unchallengable(2+2=4)
the quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. surats or chapters were no revealed but instead various ayats or verses were revealed and (not as chapter one;verses1-15 revealed then chapter 1 verses 16-42 revealed. NO, it was sometimes from chapter 13 then chapter 2 then chapter 30...etc.(not in right order, just giving example)) So ppl recorded this and memorised it and studied it over 23 years, so the chapters completed. Hard to keep up, think about it;30 chaps. 23 years. uncompleted surahs, verses sent variously and sometimes, in relation to situations, etc.
Back to 19. nice odd number. its also got no variables.
But when studied it all the quran, as a whole, all 30 chapters are further divided into variables of 19. The amount of verses, words, letters, pronounciation signs, etc are all variables of 19. some words such as surat ar rahman has rahman repeated in the number of times....variable of 19.
so how does an illiterate man, sitting in a nomadic tribe occuppying desert, come up with such mathematical accuracy, proving himself 23 years later? how did he know he would be alive to prove this early revealed verse..(19) (You got to study into his life he was quite preoccupied, obviously if he converted all the arab peninsula and its still thriving today) He was never learnt, raised with tribes himself, he was always stating his words were not his, (no borrowed glory). The mathematical genius was not his either then, infact they only figured this one out recently with the help of computers...the coincedience baffling....I think not.
It is not hard for the creator to be mathematical correct. our universe is running on it..the orbit, gravity, physics, chemistry, its all on math right past the decimal point.....
But they didnt know perpendicular bi-sector, E=mc2, etc. in nomad arab land 1400ad...But even the gr2 student knows it now.
The challenge was not for that time but for now, when we have our computers to aid our math. Interestly accurate, this mathematical discovery could be considered a miracle, id prefer to say it is but one of the greatness of the Greatest.
It is a mere number 19 that is challenging the coincendence wrong,
Proving that the Quran is revealed 1400 AD(to an tribe raised illiterate) and is coincideing with todays world, and astonshing our so civilised and educated selves, miracle? yeah it is.
A story.
A sign.
A token.
A family member was with child..but it was found out prior to the birth that the child would be born with a genetic problem and would not survive.
So..my relative carried the child to term. He was born with his liver outside of his body and lived about an hour.
We took pictures at the hospital of her holding him before he died..or right after.
Happenend about 10 years ago.
She has 3 little girls now.
Kids were looking at the pictures...
Said..."you know that picture mom", " that one with the spirit of God?" "that one where he is going to heaven?"
Well...we looked again.. was a picture that our family has looked at before...
But was different... looked at the picture.. a slim cloud above that babies head...kinda like a cyclone..and you can see kind of a helix in it.. looks like circular stairs to heaven..
I think a sign.
Made my heart stop.