Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali elected Prime Minister of Pakistan

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *

There is a lot more to the LFO then just women. Do you even know what the clauses in the LFO mean? I doubt it.
[/quote]

Not all of them but the most of all people have been arguing about for months is Presiident's Power to dismiss Govt.

[quote]
So women in the administration will decrease poverty, brilliant.
[/quote]

Yes, I believe so! Given women power!

[quote]
In case you didnt know ANY CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS MUST BE PASSED BY 2/3RDS OF A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PARLIAMENT, AND NOT BY A MILITARY DICTATOR.
[/quote]

Democractically elected Govt. PPPP and PML(N)] will never do that, bank on it

[quote]
If you support leaders like Shujaat, garbage should be part of the game.
[/quote]

Where did I ever support Shujaat lota on GS?

[quote]
Maybe American Angel, boston-karachi etc are not so authentic afterall.
[/quote]

You need a little sense of humor ;)

[quote]
So he rigged the referundum, you openly said hes not popular amongst the people, so why do you think he should be a president?
[/quote]

Because some people have got balls, some got brian. Mush got both.

[quote]
Who cares about overseas supporters, there are fewer in number,
[/quote]

Chanda, have you seen FDI record yet? It has increased but hasn't cross the mark the Govt. was expected. Btw, wasn't an Elected Democractically Govt. with more than 2/3 majority passed a bill to froze dollar accounts of overseas Pakistanis? How did it turn out in the end?

Musharraf Govt. up lifted the frozen account of Pakistanis.

[quote]
and even the poll at gupshup, consisting of overseas Pakistanis got 60something% votes, let alone 99%.
[/QUOTE]

Doesn't matter. He's still in power. If he uses in a wrong way, I believe his fate will be just like Zia and ZAB.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *

Not all of them but the most of all people have been arguing about for months is Presiident's Power to dismiss Govt.

[/quote]

Chanda, first of all, Happy Birthday in advance ;)

As for this power given to the president, dont you think its wrong? Thats the main reason why I dont accept the LFO, as it makes Musharraf another Zia-ul-Haq in the making.

[quote]

Yes, I believe so! Given women power!

[/quote]

The women that have been elected, I dont really trust them in the first place, they are no better than the male politicians. .

[quote]

Democractically elected Govt. PPPP and PML(N)] will never do that, bank on it

[/quote]

Ok, but you are ready to accept a rigged PML(Q), which is basically PML(N) minus Nawaz. Interesting.

[quote]

Where did I ever support Shujaat lota on GS?

[/quote]

Duh, PML (Q) which you admire so much = Shujaats party. Did you know he promised Elahi the chief ministership on family ties?

[quote]

You need a little sense of humor ;)

[/quote]

Well, everyone know about the boston-karachi, american angel thing yar.

[quote]

Because some people have got balls, some got brian. Mush got both.

[/quote]

Perhaps, he is a wise person and he has locked horns with India, but the army belongs at the borders to protect us, not govern us.

[quote]

Chanda, have you seen FDI record yet? It has increased but hasn't cross the mark the Govt. was expected. Btw, wasn't an Elected Democractically Govt. with more than 2/3 majority passed a bill to froze dollar accounts of overseas Pakistanis? How did it turn out in the end?

[/quote]

Son, all I know is during his regime the life of the common man has gone miserable. I dont care what the mark etc says. I have witnessed his regime to be hard on my family financially and this is true for all Government serving officers and businessmen. They are fed up of him.

[quote]

Musharraf Govt. up lifted the frozen account of Pakistanis.

[/quote]

No he didnt. The forex accounts that Nawaz froze were unfrozen, but they were no longer forex accounts, and the Government decided to return the money at a lower exchange rate. My family was also a victim of this move, as we had all the savings in a forex account in Habib Bank, only to be frozen, and returned in the low exchange rate. They never gave back the money in dollars in case you didnt know. And may I remind you how the dollar is soaring high right now and what the return price was.

[quote]

Doesn't matter. He's still in power. If he uses in a wrong way, I believe his fate will be just like Zia and ZAB.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, with the excellent opposition we have, I am sure Musharraf will get a royal treatment in the end, and it will be worse than Ayub or Zia.

Thanks!

Not really. Zia’s regime was oppressive and there was no Free Media. Now, Pakistan does have Free Print Meida. Anyone can post whatever they want.

How so? Some of them have reached Parliament for the first time. For e.g Education Minister Zubeyda Jalal. Did you know how she has been working for Education in Pakistan?

CLICK HERE FOR STORY

Minus Nawaz Family only?

I admire it because it was founded by Musharraf. In politics, you gotta have little dirt on you for anybody to trust you.

Come to LA, you’ll understand above pharse. Heck, just watch Training Day Movie

I think my Technique has worked alot than I expected :hehe:

Agreed. But did you notice our Economy was on the brink on default when Musharraf came into power. I don’t like Army personnel to contrl Govt. But what would I expect from politicians then? Do you really believe the Govts. of BB[Twice] and NS[once] was dissolved by the President? C’mon man, everyone knows how many politicians run to the office of COAS, GHQ.

Son, it has gone miserable but Ecnomy has also kicks start working. If you blame someone openly, give the Credit as well where it dues.

LOL Spock, you mixed forex reserves with Foreign Accounts of mostly overseas Pakistanis. I was talking about Foreign Accounts.

P.S 1 dollar = 58.20 Rs. Check kselive.com

You aren’t a God to determine Musharraf’s fate. :slight_smile:

Not much difference. Benazir and Nawaz are not allowed to enter Pakistan, the same thing was true for BB during Zia’s regime. Both of them are military dictators.

You should also read about her scandals, and did you know Bush really likes her :wink:

You admire Shujaats party, gross. Shujaat is a local thug (also known as jooti-chor-badmash in Gujrat).

So hes not too different from nawaz, handpicking his family men. You pay my ticket for LA and ill be there hehe

Well, everyone knows yara.

The enemies of Paksitan created that hype when he took power. We could have held out even if Nawaz continued.

its been a long time son, but its not close to clicking.

Lets see, you were talking about unfreezing the foriegn accounts. That is not forex reserves. Forex Accounts → Foriegn Accounts, whats the difference.

And you remember what it was in 1999?

Truth hurts. God has given us brains, and we can use these brains to determine what will happen to this miliatry dictator. Do you remember Iskandar Mirza, Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zia-ul-Haq?? Name any dictator who hasnt sufferred because of his actions. What makes you think Musharraf will be spared?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *

Not much difference. Benazir and Nawaz are not allowed to enter Pakistan, the same thing was true for BB during Zia's regime. Both of them are military dictators.
[/quote]

LOL! When did Musharraf say he ain't gonna allow Bhutto to return to Pakistan? There's a difference b/w returning to power and country, Son

[quote]
You should also read about her scandals, and did you know Bush really likes her ;)
[/quote]

Sethi and Sehabi articles.

[quote]
You admire Shujaats party, gross. Shujaat is a local thug (also known as jooti-chor-badmash in Gujrat).
[/quote]

Excuse me? Where did I say I admire Shujjat. P.S it ain't a Shajjat party. It's Musharraf's Party widely known as KING'S PARTY

[quote]
so hes not too different from nawaz, handpicking his family men.
[/quote]

That is correct. But where did I take side of it?

[quote]
Well, everyone knows yara.
[/quote]

Told ya

[quote]
The enemies of Paksitan created that hype when he took power. We could have held out even if Nawaz continued.
[/quote]

Pakistan would have bankcrupted if NS were still in power.

[quote]
its been a long time son, but its not close to clicking.
[/quote]

Nope. It's clicking.

[quote]
Lets see, you were talking about unfreezing the foriegn accounts. That is not forex reserves. Forex Accounts -> Foriegn Accounts, whats the difference.
[/quote]

Correction!

Forex reserves, not accounts, handle by Govt. Foreign Accounts mean the accounts open by people in a foreign currency, mostly in dollars.

[quote]
And you remember what it was in 1999?
[/quote]

1 dollar = 66.20 approx

[quote]
Truth hurts. God has given us brains, and we can use these brains to determine what will happen to this miliatry dictator. Do you remember Iskandar Mirza, Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zia-ul-Haq?? Name any dictator who hasnt sufferred because of his actions. What makes you think Musharraf will be spared?
[/QUOTE]

Iskandar Mirza was a Governor General, not a military man. P.S what makes you think Musharraf's fate would be like Zia and Ayub, not like ZAB? ;)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *

LOL! When did Musharraf say he ain't gonna allow Bhutto to return to Pakistan? There's a difference b/w returning to power and country, Son

[/quote]

He said it. Hes dead scared of her, he knew if she came back, she would get the crowd moving. If he says ppl hate her and nawaz, why doesnt he let them come here; simple, he knows they will get elected.

[quote]

Sethi and Sehabi articles.

[/quote]

haha, since you havent read those articles, you probably dont know anything as to who wrote em.

[quote]

Excuse me? Where did I say I admire Shujjat. P.S it ain't a Shajjat party. It's Musharraf's Party widely known as KING'S PARTY

[/quote]

Who is leading the kings party, shujaat. Even it was musharraf, it shows what your mentality is, you support a dictator who handpicked a bunch of thugz and labelled it democracy.

[quote]

Nope. It's clicking.

[/quote]

Only to some musharraf lovers sitting outside Pakistan.

[quote]

Correction!

Forex reserves, not accounts, handle by Govt. Foreign Accounts mean the accounts open by people in a foreign currency, mostly in dollars.

[/quote]

Son, you just made a mistake, musharraf never unfroze the accounts like you said. Those dollars that people held out in accounts were lost. Forex implies foriegn.

[quote]

1 dollar = 66.20 approx

[/quote]

Oh, so the dollar was 66 in 1999? haha

[quote]

Iskandar Mirza was a Governor General, not a military man. P.S what makes you think Musharraf's fate would be like Zia and Ayub, not like ZAB? ;)
[/QUOTE]

In case you didnt know, Iskandar Mirza declared Martial law in the country on Oct 7th 1958.

I got to go with Spock on this one, although I do support some good moves by Mushy like womens representation, free media, joint electorate and improving inter-provincial relations. Issues like the LFO, Lotaism and the real state of the economy, Spocks speaking the truth.

The common man, is being starved to death. The taxes and corruption are killing them and their families. The stock market can make a trillion dollars but it doesn't make a difference unless the average person can see and feel the improvement. I mean people are more and desperate to just run away from the country. After all how many of us can imagine living on 6 thousand rs per month?( if you can start including the cost of keeping family) That is again IF we find a job...

This is my problem with having the Faujis in power and playing games in politics by creating lotas and holding secret talks with different groups. There job is to defend the country, the more they interfere the more they not only damage their reputation. The more they become incapable of doing their real job, defending the countries borders.

I think a chor's followers are worse then the chor themselves. People like Nawaz Sharif and BB could never have done the things they did without the support of lotas and other chors.

One other thing, I am fairly certain Iskandier Mirza was a Maj General?

oh my God, so much :bukbuk2:

I dont think its clear cut in any way. BOTH generals, and non-army policians have done a lot of damage to the country. And among BOTH the army and non-army politicians, you’ll find some good souls stuck in some real tight spots.

These good souls are trying to make a difference. I think we really need to quit whining so much. Honestly, even though this present government has HUGE problems, its a LOT better than what Pakistan had with Benazir Bhutto or Nawaz Sharif.

We’re friggin lucky that the mullah fazul rehman whatchya-ma-call-it, and chaudry shujaat hussain did not get elected (or rigged into winning, whatever u want to call it), because they’re both rats. If you dont want to believe me, phir theek hai, think what u want, i dont want to debate the matter.

Sure there ARE problems. But look. Here’s what Pakistani PEOPLE haven’t realized. A government, especially a “democracy” :rolleyes: wont work unless if people get involved. In fact, no form of government will work without the involvement of people.

Its a simple concept. The government is not a machine. Its run by people. Its made for people. If the people running it are thieves, or idiots, or illiterates, they need to be taken out and replaced. Hence, the “honorables” of the nation need to stop whining - get out there - risk getting killed - and fight in those elections. And these “honorables” need to take some action!!!

Action!

We’re only talking and :bukbuk2: 'ing that we’re not realizing its not getting us anywhere. Dammit, we’ve been doing this for 50 years. We’re not even living in the country under discussion!!! If we’re do damn concerned about it, why did we run away?? Why did we leave everything and not put up a fight at least?

Did people die in vain in those burned trains and burned villages during the partition and before?

Look, whatever u say, at least people like Musharraf are THERE and not in the UK or the USA enjoying hot dogs or fish n chips! They’re out there, living a life of hell, trying to get something done and hell, its not going to happen over nite. Its going to take time, and its going to take some games and politicking, and its going to involve sleeping with the enemy! But its gotta get done. Things need to be put on track there. Villagers need to be immunized, provided with food shelter and education, tribalism and feudalism needs to be shot in the face, crime needs to be toned tone, the economy needs to be turned upside down.

Dude, it takes us students FOUR years to get a friggin bachelor’s degree (doesn’t take a genius to do that these days) and you’re expecting that Mush should have turned Pakistan into the USA in 3 years???

Jao, Jao. I’m glad impatient folks like some of you guppies aren’t Pakistani citizens anymore. Good riddance.

Salam PC; nice to see you posting again...a quick comment. It took The King Sher Shah Suri 3 years to radically improve the state of the Indian subcontinent, that was of a huge amount of territory and no proper communication facilities.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Salam PC; nice to see you posting again...a quick comment. It took The King Sher Shah Suri 3 years to radically improve the state of the Indian subcontinent, that was of a huge amount of territory and no proper communication facilities.
[/QUOTE]
Excellent point!

What we need, and excuse the crudeness, is a leader with some brass balls. Someonw who is not afraid to take on the system and the entrenchend establishment.

First I thought Musharraf would actually do that, since he spoke well and seemed honest, but now he is just like the others. He is making deals with corrupt people and riging, just so he remains in power. Instead of makign the right decisions, some of which would be unpopular, he is playing politics and trying to gain favours with the chors.

Now, I don't envy anyone who has to lead Pakistan, but we need a strong leader, not Musharraf who bends with the wind.

I'm not going to comment on your example since I know nothing about it. But I will say that if its true, its most likely the exception to the rule. That kind of force probably is unrealistic today.

Corruption in Pakistani society is from top to bottom down to the corner paanwala and fish butcher.

But if you see a King Shah Suri around, let the Pak Public know. Maybe we can replace Jamali and Musharraf and Chaudry Shujaat with him. :)

Call poverty by any name
http://www.dawn.com/2002/text/ebr1.htm

By Our Special Correspondent

Pakistan Human Condition Report released earlier this month has come up with a new and perhaps a more comprehensive definition of poverty.

Prepared by the Centre for Research on Poverty Reduction and Income Distribution (CRPRID), a Planning Commission unit, the report has advised against policy focus just on a point estimate of head-count i.e. 30.6 per cent below the poverty line. Instead, according to authors of the report it should define the poverty lines to lie within a poverty band to accommodate estimation errors as well as minor differences in the underlying assumptions.

In addition, the report has asked the policy planners to direct differential policies at: a. The vulnerable group (the layer above the poverty band); b. the transient group( layer below the poverty band) and; c. the absolute poor (the group below the transients).

The vulnerable group requires policies like asset creation and safety nets which reduce the probability of ‘shocks’ pulling members from this group into the poverty band or the transient zone. The population within the poverty band and in the transient zone will require public/private investments and complementary policies (physical asset creation and /or transfer and education) which enable this group to move above the vulnerability zone.

Finally, the hardest task is to design and implement policies and complementary actions (education and employment) to lift the absolute poor to above the vulnerability zone.

This would be a big enough burden for any nation, says the Report. But this is only a part of the total burden when it is considered that poverty in Pakistan has been defined to include opportunity and capability deprivations in addition to basic needs (which includes food). Poverty of Opportunity Index (POPI) was presented in the 1998 report of Mahbubul Haq’s Centre for Human Development.

The Human Poverty Index (HPI)-(reflecting deprivation of capability) was introduced in UNDP’s 1997 Human Development Report. A poverty pyramid describes the relationship of these Poverty Indictors. Under the HPI-Criterion about 50 per cent of Pakistan’s population is below the poverty line’ that is 72 million Pakistanis.

The report brings out a highly depressing picture by disaggregating the non-income determinants of poverty- the condition in education, health and institutions: * at least 6 million children between the ages of five to nine years are out of school; * of the remaining 14 million children quality education may be available to only a small minority; * about 55 per cent of the 10+ years age population is illiterate under a criterion of literacy which is not even basic under the UNESCO definition of literacy. Even this sub-basic level 80 million citizens are illiterate.

If functional literacy were the criterion, then the illiterate population would be over 100 million; * the participation rate at the university level is 3 per cent of the 17-23 year age group. This is very low for becoming a modern state. In East Asia and OECD countries this rate is over 30 per cent; * in addition, Pakistan does not have a sustainable domestic scientific community. Its Research & Development investment rate is about 0.2 per cent of GDP. With 100 scientists and engineers per million population, Pakistan does not have a sustainable domestic scientific community; * there is a gender gap in this sub-basic literacy and there is a rural-urban gap.

The Balochistan female has a literacy rate of 9 per cent while Punjab/Sindh/NWFP male has a literacy rate of 72 per cent; * the morality rates of infants, children and mothers are high by regional and world standards. Due to the very high maternal mortality rate of 400 per 100,000 live births the sex ratio in Pakistan is 108 males to 100 females.

For Balochistan, this ratio is 115 males to 100 females; * about 40 per cent children under five years are malnourished; * air pollution contributes as much to the burden of disease as water pollution, but air pollution control is not in the I-PRSP outcome indicators except in the petroleum section where clean fuels are intended to be introduced.

With the current 40 per cent urbanization and its 3.5 per cent annual growth rate it is essential that ambient air pollution (indoor and outdoor) be measured in a systematic manner. At this time, such a practice does not exist; * income distribution is highly skewed with the top 20 per cent getting 50 per cent of the income, while the bottom 20 per cent getting only 6 per cent.; * the measurement and monitoring capacity of Pakistani institutions is such that timely information about impacts of policies on various dimensions of poverty and well being is not available; * macroeconomic policies-fiscal, tax burdens, subsidies, monetary, utility prices,-have had non-convergent effects on the poor.

Professionally more intensive policy integration among both instruments ( taxation, subsidization, pricing, credit etc) and sectors( agriculture, SME) is required for policies and actions to produce convergent poverty reduction effects. Three effects of non-convergence are particularly relevant for poverty reduction. One, the significant decrease in PSDP from 7 per cent of GDP in 1988 to 3.6 per cent in 2002.

Two, the precipitous decrease in poverty related subsidies from Rs. 5.2 billion in 1991 to Rs. 284 million in 2001.

Three, the tax burden increased by 4 per cent for the lowest income group G1 while it decreased by 21 per cent for the highest income group G12;

finally, since improved governance (rule of law, civil service, judicial, police reforms, devolution) is a requirement for economic growth it is critical that outcome indicators for measuring progress are included in the PRSP.

These measures should be in terms of transaction times and transaction costs for the poor in dealing with the public sector.

While this picture of poverty is highly depressing, there appears to be nothing in it which would set it apart from other such pictures drawn by various agencies engaged in the glamourous business of making money by looking at all kinds of data and coming up with impractical ideas on how best to reduce poverty. In this the IMF and World Bank funding also helps.

However, if you look at the last four factors that go into creating the poverty trap in Pakistan, you will realize what massive damage has been inflicted on this country’s socio-economic fabric in the last three years of military rule and its faithful adherence to the IMF/World Bank prescriptions.

The emphasis on macroeconomic stability has been stretched to the most ridiculous extent. And as a result the PSDP expenditure which was 7 per cent of the GDP in 1988 has been brought down to 3.6 per cent in 2002, poverty related subsidies have gone down from Rs5.2 billion to a paltry Rs284 million, tax burden has increased by 4 per cent for the lowest income group while it decreased by 21 per cent for the highest income group and finally by messing up with the judiciary and violating all norms of rule of law in order to perpetuate military’s pre-eminence in the governance, the government in the last three years has only aided and abated in the crime of expanding the sea of poverty in this country.

ok so what do you suggest be done to alleviate poverty that is not already being done?

Lets hear some ideas.

Zakk & PyariCgudia etc :)

It would be great if you guys could post a new thread on poverty issues, so that members can discuss that topic separately in more detail. This thread can then remain for the topic at hand. Just send me or Akif a PM or mail if you need assistance.

Many thanks

Mursalin

sorry!!

And the topic is back onto Jamali

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=1830704

Pakistan ‘House of Cards’ Government Seeks Allies
Sun December 1, 2002 03:48 AM ET
By Mike Collett-White
ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Seven weeks after Pakistan’s general election, the new government is being likened to a house of cards – standing, but only just.

The pro-military Pakistan Muslim League Quaid-e-Azam (PML-QA) remains the key playmaker, and its candidate for prime minister squeezed through last week with a one-vote majority.

But that was only achieved with the help of smaller parties and 10 defectors from the anti-military Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) led by exiled former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

It did not take long for the first crisis to emerge.

The Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), based in the southern port city of Karachi, withdrew the support of its 16 parliamentarians on Wednesday, forcing Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali to scrabble around for new friends.

He faces a mandatory confidence vote in parliament within two months of his investiture.

On Sunday he was seeking to bring in a hardline Islamic coalition, which posted huge gains in the October 10 poll by tapping fierce anti-U.S. sentiment in some areas of Pakistan triggered by the attacks on neighboring Afghanistan.

The Muttahida Majlis-a-Amal (MMA) Islamic coalition, which numbers pro-Taliban clerics among its leaders, won 60 seats, and its possible role in government has raised concern that it may seek to block the U.S.-led hunt for al Qaeda remnants in remote Pakistani border regions.

But while the pro-military PML-QA and the Islamic alliance have agreed to share power in Baluchistan province, hurdles remain on a national level.

The Islamic alliance insists President Pervez Musharraf stands down as army chief, waives his right to sack parliament and disbands the National Security Council set up to oversee key policy decisions.

“If all these conditions are met, the MMA’s Supreme Council will decide whether we should enter into a coalition with the government,” Liaquat Baluch, deputy head of the Jamaat-e-Islami party, which is in the alliance, told Reuters late on Saturday.

HOSTAGE TO SMALLER GROUPS

Jamali’s first week in power has shown how precarious his position is. His pro-military party won 118 seats in the 342-seat National Assembly, well short of a majority. Bhutto’s PPP was the second largest with 81 seats.

In return for the PPP defections, three key ministries – interior, defense and petroleum – went to their candidates.

Should the Islamic alliance agree to join the coalition, the PPP members may be stripped of their posts, commentators have predicted.

Jamali’s government faces imminent collapse after the MQM withdrew its support, saying that promises from the center to support it in a local dispute in Karachi had not been fulfilled.

However, the MQM may well decide to rejoin Jamali if it gets a share of power in the Sindh provincial assembly, which has yet to convene.

The largest party in that assembly is the PPP, but many see the hand of Musharraf behind efforts to cobble together a coalition to sideline his arch-enemy Bhutto.

“The assembly session has been postponed only because rulers have failed to come up with a workable coalition,” wrote the Dawn in an editorial. “This is absurd.”

Musharraf denies he is meddling in politics. But without a behind-the-scenes guiding hand Jamali’s job of keeping together the government and ending military rule could be made harder.

“There is a concern this government will have a lot of trouble getting legislation through,” said a Western diplomat in Islamabad. “Jamali has the backing of President Musharraf and that is the ace card which will act as a force.”

That may not be unwelcome news in Western capitals.

While calling for an end to military rule three years after Musharraf took power, Western countries see him as a key partner in the U.S. war on terror after he backed the Afghan campaign and allowed U.S. agents to hunt al Qaeda in Pakistan.

That support is seen as even more crucial now that the anti-U.S. Islamic alliance has won power in one of the two provinces bordering Afghanistan and taken a share of power in the other.

MMA making trouble. Mullahs. Could you possibly expect better?