To the contrary, I read it and understood it very well. Hence, my refutation.
As to your question: Surat An-Najm and the fate and status of shirk.
Re: Minorities............in Islam!
To the contrary, I read it and understood it very well. Hence, my refutation.
As to your question: Surat An-Najm and the fate and status of shirk.
Please re-read. kchugtai considers muslims who oppress minorities are agnostics. That in no way implies that all agnostics oppress.
Am not a mufti so just by reading surat an-najm I cannot conclude what the islamic law should be. And you shouldn't either. That surah talks about the final judgement, how Allah ta'ala will judge disbelievers.
Re: Minorities…in Islam!
[quote="“OneYourMomWarnedAbt, post:92, topic:177557"”]
Please re-read. kchugtai considers muslims who oppress minorities are agnostics. That in no way implies that all agnostics oppress.
Am not a mufti so just by reading surat an-najm I cannot conclude what the islamic law should be. And you shouldn’t either. That surah talks about the final judgement, how Allah ta’ala will judge disbelievers.
[/quote]
That’s an asinine argument. How can one be a Muslim and agnostic? Moreover, he explicitly stated:
No implication involved. It was directly expressed.
You asked for evidence. I provided it. Why shouldn’t I draw conclusions from religious texts? What makes some clerics interpretation more valid than mine? I’ve read it, and I see how it’s implemented.
Re: Minorities............in Islam!
If people could become experts just by reading, most professions would have been at reach so long as you can quote things and keep a copy of book on-hand. The blessed companions (May Allah be pleased with with them all) of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) spent years learning the Quran; not just reading it. To understand the application of something, you have to seek out those who have studied it, and devoted their lives to it.
Joe the car mechanic will not make a good surgeon just because he knows how to access WebMD.
The tragedy of the matter is that half of us quote texts to prove validity, and other half quote it to prove their perception and rebuttals. Only if we instead showed genuine interest in learning rather than reading, and seeking rather than rebutting we could develop an understanding of the scriptures, and then take it if we like it or leave it if we don't.
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
Discussion has been split to keep the original topic intact.
Re: Minorities…in Islam!
[quote="“kprasad, post:108, topic:164559"”]
That’s an asinine argument. How can one be a Muslim and agnostic? Moreover, he explicitly stated:
No implication involved. It was directly expressed.
You asked for evidence. I provided it. Why shouldn’t I draw conclusions from religious texts? What makes some clerics interpretation more valid than mine? I’ve read it, and I see how it’s implemented.
[/quote]
No my dear friend, it is not asinine. I will show you what is. Take for example the following quote:
First and foremost, there is something in there called ‘in my view’, through which he is making sure you understand he is not talking about agnostics but muslims whom he considers to be agnostics. Second, there is also something called ‘religious duty’; now what is religious duty for an agnostic? So its not really about agnostics. Finally, he is saying he considers oppressors as agnostics. Not the other way around. He didnt say all agnostics are oppressors. To conclude what is not stated is asinine.
Now about the evidence. I don’t think you read the translation of an-Najm either. Because, the translation only talks about the judgement day and not a courtroom. It is ok to think that clerics are stupid and that you are smarter than any cleric of any religion. That is your right. But not even reading the translation and yet trying to pass off something you read on a website as your own interpretation is, for lack of another word, asinine. If you load up books on a donkey, the donkey does not become a scholar.
I know you think muslims are ignorant, uneducated idiots and every post you make reeks of that superiority complex. But if you really want to debate something, try to educate yourself first. Maybe you can start by understanding such words as tafseer, fiqh, shariah and sunnah.
And that, my friend, is my last word on this topic.
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
if anyone needs a definition of "baal ki khaal utarna", he must review this page
Re: Minorities…in Islam!
This post reminds me last scene from ‘Fehmida ki Kahani, ustani Rahat ki zubani’, where a lady start quoting clauses from Pakistan Penal Code (Taazeeraat e Pakistan) to punish those whose show off lead her poor daughter’s death due to depression. The lawyer said same words to her.
Fehmida ki Kahani Ustani Rahat ki Zubani - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWJOmZ-0i-M)
Re: Minorities............in Islam!
I reserve the right to explain what I said.
[QUOTE]
People who on one pretext or another oppress minorities as if they are performing a religious duty, in my view, are agnostics
[/QUOTE]
ok. Let me explain it. Ya Allah Madad!!
People who oppress others (other religious groups) and it seems that they are religious zealots and cannot tolerate anything that goes against their religion, in fact, have no connection with teachings of their religion and that is my conviction that they don't even believe in God as they don't have any fear of God. They, apparently, seem religious to the people at large but they only have wordly motives behind their henious acts. We have seen this from Gojra to Gujranwala. How do I know this? Let me give you a few points to chew on:
1) Islam has forbidden killing even animals with fire yet they use fire to burn houses and people.
2) Killing children is forbidden even in wars yet they don't do any such distinction
3) Islam teaches restraint and not let loose your emotions yet their religion is all about letting loose emotions and nothing about restraint.
I think I have made myself clear
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
If people could become experts just by reading, most professions would have been at reach so long as you can quote things and keep a copy of book on-hand. The blessed companions (May Allah be pleased with with them all) of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) spent years learning the Quran; not just reading it. To understand the application of something, you have to seek out those who have studied it, and devoted their lives to it. Joe the car mechanic will not make a good surgeon just because he knows how to access WebMD. The tragedy of the matter is that half of us quote texts to prove validity, and other half quote it to prove their perception and rebuttals. Only if we instead showed genuine interest in learning rather than reading, and seeking rather than rebutting we could develop an understanding of the scriptures, and then take it if we like it or leave it if we don't.
As a specific matter of fact, you become an expert on any religion by reading its scriptural texts. That is irrefutable. The supposed divinity that inspired the text is unavailable for examination or interrogation. The only way to become an expert is to read it.
A car mechanic is not a surgeon, but can become one. Science, as it relates to teaching, is not the same as religious indoctrination. One is based on reason and evidence, and the other is based on blind faith and the interpretation of texts by someone else.
No my dear friend, it is not asinine. I will show you what is. Take for example the following quote:
First and foremost, there is something in there called 'in my view', through which he is making sure you understand he is not talking about agnostics but muslims whom he considers to be agnostics. Second, there is also something called 'religious duty'; now what is religious duty for an agnostic? So its not really about agnostics. Finally, he is saying he considers oppressors as agnostics. Not the other way around. He didnt say all agnostics are oppressors. To conclude what is not stated is asinine.
Now about the evidence. I don't think you read the translation of an-Najm either. Because, the translation only talks about the judgement day and not a courtroom. It is ok to think that clerics are stupid and that you are smarter than any cleric of any religion. That is your right. But not even reading the translation and yet trying to pass off something you read on a website as your own interpretation is, for lack of another word, asinine. If you load up books on a donkey, the donkey does not become a scholar.
I know you think muslims are ignorant, uneducated idiots and every post you make reeks of that superiority complex. But if you really want to debate something, try to educate yourself first. Maybe you can start by understanding such words as tafseer, fiqh, shariah and sunnah.
And that, my friend, is my last word on this topic.
This is a preposterous argument . The implication of the post, in discussion, is that a religious person would never commit any atrocities, and that such can only be done by the godless! This is an attempt to placate the ills of religion. I challenge you to show me one instance where mass murder has been carried specifically because of agnosticism or atheism. I can show you numerous examples of murder being carried, specifically, because or religion.
Second, be it judgment day or any other day, what difference does it make? If you are not of any of the Abrahamic religions, you have no recourse. Moreover, this is the justification used to oppress minorities that do not belong to any of the Abrahamic religions.
Lastly, I don’t think Muslims are ignorant. But I do think religion is the scourge of the world. It just so happens that the topics we discuss here are related to Islam, but I have the same disdain for Hinduism, which I was raised in, Christianity, how I was educated, and every other religion.
Hinduism and Islam are, in particular, are somewhat central to me. I think we, South Asians, as a race are so backward, relegated, and impoverished only because of religion. It saddens me that in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century it’s not getting better, only worse. As a human being, I believe it is incumbent upon me, simply due to humanity, to challenge the malignancy of religion.
I reserve the right to explain what I said.
ok. Let me explain it. Ya Allah Madad!!
People who oppress others (other religious groups) and it seems that they are religious zealots and cannot tolerate anything that goes against their religion, in fact, have no connection with teachings of their religion and that is my conviction that they don't even believe in God as they don't have any fear of God. They, apparently, seem religious to the people at large but they only have wordly motives behind their henious acts. We have seen this from Gojra to Gujranwala. How do I know this? Let me give you a few points to chew on: 1) Islam has forbidden killing even animals with fire yet they use fire to burn houses and people. 2) Killing children is forbidden even in wars yet they don't do any such distinction 3) Islam teaches restraint and not let loose your emotions yet their religion is all about letting loose emotions and nothing about restraint. I think I have made myself clear
So, would you say ISIS are more religious or less religious? Would you say their interpretation is inaccurate? Would you say their scriptural evidence is invalid? What about Boko Haram?
How about this: How about if the deity that inspired the religious text shows up and answers some questions?
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
^ I have answered the questions. If you had read my words, you would have known that I am not supporting likes of boko haram or ISIS. The role model before me is the holy prophet (pbuh):
1) Who went to inquire about the well-being of the non-believing woman who used to throw garbage on him
2) Who has made covenants with kuffar-e-makka and other non-muslims even under stringent of conditions to give a chance to peace
3) Who used sword as a last resort and forgave even his personal enemies after conquering Mecca
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
As a specific matter of fact, you become an expert on any religion by reading its scriptural texts. That is irrefutable. The supposed divinity that inspired the text is unavailable for examination or interrogation. The only way to become an expert is to read it. A car mechanic is not a surgeon, but can become one. Science, as it relates to teaching, is not the same as religious indoctrination. One is based on reason and evidence, and the other is based on blind faith and the interpretation of texts by someone else.
This is a preposterous argument . The implication of the post, in discussion, is that a religious person would never commit any atrocities, and that such can only be done by the godless! This is an attempt to placate the ills of religion. I challenge you to show me one instance where mass murder has been carried specifically because of agnosticism or atheism. I can show you numerous examples of murder being carried, specifically, because or religion. Second, be it judgment day or any other day, what difference does it make? If you are not of any of the Abrahamic religions, you have no recourse. Moreover, this is the justification used to oppress minorities that do not belong to any of the Abrahamic religions. Lastly, I don’t think Muslims are ignorant. But I do think religion is the scourge of the world. It just so happens that the topics we discuss here are related to Islam, but I have the same disdain for Hinduism, which I was raised in, Christianity, how I was educated, and every other religion. Hinduism and Islam are, in particular, are somewhat central to me. I think we, South Asians, as a race are so backward, relegated, and impoverished only because of religion. It saddens me that in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century it’s not getting better, only worse. As a human being, I believe it is incumbent upon me, simply due to humanity, to challenge the malignancy of religion.
So, would you say ISIS are more religious or less religious? Would you say their interpretation is inaccurate? Would you say their scriptural evidence is invalid? What about Boko Haram? How about this: How about if the deity that inspired the religious text shows up and answers some questions?
Peace kprasad
Religious people are pious who fear and love God and His creatures ... Anyone who shows signs against this is not religious. If you claim the contrary then you are mistaken, deceived or you are an anti-religion propagandist. Religions do no teach intolerance and killing ... Such acts are actually godless and may be done in the name of religion. But that is not the same thing.
One does not become an expert on religion by reading ... An expert on religion must have faith or understand the faith of its adherents in the way they understand it.
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
^ I have answered the questions. If you had read my words, you would have known that I am not supporting likes of boko haram or ISIS. The role model before me is the holy prophet (pbuh):
1) Who went to inquire about the well-being of the non-believing woman who used to throw garbage on him
2) Who has made covenants with kuffar-e-makka and other non-muslims even under stringent of conditions to give a chance to peace
3) Who used sword as a last resort and forgave even his personal enemies after conquering Mecca
Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick from your religion only those things you like. If you accept your religion as a universal truth, the word of god, and divinely delivered, then you must accept it all. That means the brutal as well. Your role model is also the role model for ISIS and Boko Haram. I submit, they are more accurate than you are. I also suspect they're more versed in your scriptures than you are. Moreover, they're willing to die and kill for their beliefs...
The question arises, who has the better interpretation?
Peace kprasad
Religious people are pious who fear and love God and His creatures ... Anyone who shows signs against this is not religious. If you claim the contrary then you are mistaken, deceived or you are an anti-religion propagandist. Religions do no teach intolerance and killing ... Such acts are actually godless and may be done in the name of religion. But that is not the same thing.
One does not become an expert on religion by reading ... An expert on religion must have faith or understand the faith of its adherents in the way they understand it.
Am I anti-religion; absolutely! I will stipulate that at the onset. I despise religion and see it as a cancer, regardless of the flavor.
ISIS are religious. Are they pious? I bet they would think they are. Boko Haram for a fact believe they are pious. Recently a woman that was involved in the targeted killing of Muslims during the Gujarat riots, in India, was interviewed in prison and she sees herself as pious as well. I think they're all murderers and thugs, but all backed well by their religions.
Brother psyah, this is a juvenile argument. I have to be religious to understand your religion? So, you, brother, can't understand Christianity because you're not Christian. A Jew can't understand Islam because he's not Muslim. A Buddhist can't understand a Judaism because he's not Jewish! What an argument! This is how your religious wars start!
I'm a human being! I can empathize and sympathize. I don't need superstition to tell me how to treat my fellow brothers and sisters.
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick from your religion only those things you like.
Am I anti-religion; absolutely!
Peace kprasad
You are boring me with your accusative tone ... I will refuse to engage with that.
Propagandist you have admitted to well ... No further discussion is required ...
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
[QUOTE]
Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick from your religion only those things you like. If you accept your religion as a universal truth, the word of god, and divinely delivered, then you must accept it all. That means the brutal as well. Your role model is also the role model for ISIS and Boko Haram. I submit, they are more accurate than you are. I also suspect they're more versed in your scriptures than you are. Moreover, they're willing to die and kill for their beliefs...
The question arises, who has the better interpretation?
[/QUOTE]
Does KKK represent Christianity? They also used name of their religion to support their horrendous acts.
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
Peace brother kchughtai
Is there any worth in giving kprasad’s opinion any worth … when he can claim to a) Know Islam more than the adherents to say the adherents have got it wrong or are implementing it partially, b) Know the adherents level of knowledge and c) Know the level of knowledge of the ISIS members (as if he has been spending time with them) … the only thing that surfaces is his utter repulsion of religion and in particular Islam. Saying things like KKK Christianity is pointless.
Well there is one thing … 
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
Let's look closely at this cancer you state ...
Can we invoke the life of various Muslims who are recognised by the Muslim majority as being among the greatest pious and adherent Muslims and by the world of non-Muslims ... and see whether what you say is true or what I say ... Can we establish a basis for meaningful discussion on something that we can agree on?
I suggest we look closely at the lives of RasoolAllah (SAW), Sayyiduna Abu Bakr Siqqique (RA), Sayyiduna Umar (RA), Sayyiduna Uthman (RA), Sayyiduna Ali (RA), Imam Al-Ghazali (RA), Sallahudin Ayyubi (RA), Abdul Qadir Al-Jaylani (RA), Abu Hasan Al-Shadhili (RA), Ahmad Zarruq (RA) ...
Or how about some contemporary people and near contemporary people ...
Let's take the life of Abdal Hakim Murad, Hamza Yusuf, Malcolm X and let's compare them with the Muslim tyrants who you say are better and more religious ...
Let's compare the false caliph Abu-Bakr Al-Baghdadi with someone like Abdal Hakim Murad ... Let's look at their lives and see who has devoted more time and effort in learning Islam and who has not ... Let's see exactly why and try to quantify objectively the real issue you have with the religion.
I can make a prediction ... in all your cover for being objective, rational, humanist, etc - there is actually a very ugly hatred, harmful, spiteful, biased and unreasonable attitude towards Islam and religion in general and you know it - but instead of dealing with it - you shroud it with the mask of alleged objectivity ... So if you want to prove me wrong engage in this discussion and let's compare the lives of those people.
Peace again
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
On second thoughts ... I can't be asked ...
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
Yes, it absolutely does! The Old Testament, particularly, Leviticus is very clear that slavery and the separation of races is permissible. Moreover, the KKK’s interpretation of racial separation is completely backed by the bible.
I do hate religion, I continue to stipulate it. Why are you doubting that? It’s not secret!
By your accord only those people you say are Muslims, should be accepted as such. Taliban, not Muslim. ISIS, not Muslim. Boko Haram, not Muslim. TTP, not Muslim. Saudi Arabia, not Muslim. Al Qaeda, not Muslim. Iran, not Muslim.
You have eliminated the vast majority Muslims! I say you’re wrong!
Do you accept the Pope as Catholic?
Re: Minorities in Islam/Interpreting scriptures on own [split]
Now I’m not the kind of person that goes around saying so and so is not a Muslim do I? I merely said the examples you give are not the definition of pious Muslims. They do not represent the majority of scholars in Islam. Now anyway let’s assume your argument is not flawed in that way … I’ll entertain you …
Taliban = 60,000 people ref - Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ISIS = 80,000 people ref - Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Boko Haram = Max 3000 - ref - Boko Haram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TTP = 25,000 people - ref - Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Saudi Arabia population 30 Million people - ref - Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Qaeda - Max - 30, 000 people - al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iran Population - 77.5 Million people - Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
World population of Muslims
2.08 Billion people - ref - Muslim Population in the World
Difference between your selection and the world figures … IS
1972302000 people remaining who are not part of those groups … also claim to be Muslim.
Which is 94.82% of the world’s Muslims … Now let me stress again … I do not believe these people are not Muslim and some indeed may qualify as holding heretical beliefs but that would need to be deemed by a scholar of repute (not by me) on a case by case basis.
Care to rethink your sweeping generalisation " VAST MAJORITY MUSLIMS? It is barely over 5% … 