Ministers degree challenged / Court removes MMA politician (MERGED)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

ytup but UGC only has authority to recognize Pakistany schools, many of these chools ahve some kind of recognition in other countries.
[/quote]

UGC can recognise the qualifications that affects a person's status within Pakistan. It's not different to any other country's rule. It's like Aga Khan Uni which is a recognised institution in Pakistan but still its graduates have to pass certain qualification before they can practice in the UK. Most of these (chapaR qanati) institutions opened in Pakistan only to make money. They allured the kids by advertising that they can spent a year in a foreign country and so on and u know how attractive that can be.

They may or may not have recognition in their own countries and it is the difficult part for UGC to scrutinize all of these institutions due to lack of resources. Therefore, they have a got a list which they publish and is available.

[quote]
heck I have no doubt that this dude has a fake degree, they shoukld just give him an exam that anyone with his degree should pass, and see hoe sell he does :)

[/QUOTE]

kabhi koi apnay paoN par bhee kulhaRi maarta hai? :) Government needed 172 votes for simple majority. Even a gadha would have passed that test. ;)

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Originally posted by khan_sahib: *
**UGC can recognise the qualifications that affects a person's status within Pakistan. It's not different to any other country's rule. It's like Aga Khan Uni which is a recognised institution in Pakistan but still its graduates have to pass certain qualification before they can practice in the UK. *

Theyhave to pass these exams because they are foriegn medical graduates. Basically countries recognize the recognized institutions of other countries. That is why you can get a masters in engineerring at MIT after and Bachelors from NED.

** Most of these (chapaR qanati) institutions opened in Pakistan only to make money. They allured the kids by advertising that they can spent a year in a foreign country and so on and u know how attractive that can be. **

agreed, but not all char qanati institutes are completely fake, now as far as making money goes, even large established institutions have to figure that out, fees, endowments, donations, grants etc all play a role.

If the institute is indeed fake, and is advertising openly, running seminars etc etc, UGC should be more proactive in telling public which institutes are recognized even in their home countries. If not UGC there should be some organization doing that. Buyer beware is a good principle, but some official oversight is really needed.

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Spock - please speak for yourself. My ethnicity has nothing to do with anything. If you want to take up a dog fight with me, then PM me. I'm sure you've got plenty of falthoo waqt for that.

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Laleka looks and acts more like a chaprasi than a federal minister

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Bilal

no man, chaprasis are more presentable than this chap.

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MMA politicians madrassah education not equal to a degree

I think this ia a good decision. There has to be a case by case analysis of the madrassahs, Since they were not regulated by any educational authority, the standards between universities and these religious institutions are vastky different, not only that the standards between teh different religious institutions vary greatly as well.

Any ideas how many MMA folks will be disqualified based on this precedence?

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http://www.dawn.com/2003/text/top2.htm

ahh got my answer, 65 parliamentarians of MMA will be unseated if this precedence is held in the supreme court case as well.

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If you want details Pir, this articles got a lot of info
http://peshawar1.com/htmls/ismail/ismail07.html

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sure man, go aftet those who have fake degrees or sanads. At the same time the whole debate regarding this sanad being equal to a uni degree should continue. Qazi and the gang should not cry foul now.

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Re: MMA politicians madrassah education not equal to a degree

The question should be: **

How many MMA dudes wouldn’t be disqaulified?** :hehe:

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Hummmm, from what I understand the government is NOT questioning the issue that can the religious schools provide the basic education standards of a secular government school, instead the issue is were some of the religious schools listed down as equivalent were in fact so.

So, if a person is educated in the Islamic University next to Faisal Mosque, he is ok, but if from XYZ school, then he his not. And those 65 are from those schools that the court & accusers have doubt about.

Does anyone know what's the syllabus that is taught in some of the Islamic religious schools in Pakistan? What subjects for how long?

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Ahmadjee it's a matter of convenience, when the powers that be want to, the degrees are equivalent, and when they don't they are not. Recently a well known politican supporting the present government was unable to contest the elections because of his qualifications and viola he received a open university degree within the blink of an eye. Taking a hardline on the MMA is not about anything as noble as principles or for the sake of the country or even to stop Talibanisation, it's JUST about the MMA not playing ball. The thinking by the Ziasts was that the MMA was better than the PPP or the PML(N) because they could be controlled, post 9-11 thats no longer true.

** NOTE - links to other discussion sites are forbidden.**

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Zakk,

I totally understand and agree with the double standard of the government. It's not what the degree is, it's about who is with them and who is against.

Anyway, in the above, I didn't see any form of secular studies .. like say basic mathematics!

Do you know if these schools take students after 10th or 12th (Metric or FSc)

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Originally posted by Zakk: *
**Recently a well known politican supporting the present government was unable to contest the elections because of his qualifications and viola he received a open university degree within the blink of an eye.*

can you provide more details?

** Taking a hardline on the MMA is not about anything as noble as principles or for the sake of the country or even to stop Talibanisation, it's JUST about the MMA not playing ball. **

That does little to change the fact that if the sanad's are not equivalent, they are not equivalent. which I personally think they should not be more so after looking at the syllabus that you posted.

so we know the syllabus from deoband, I think its a great syllabus from w religious perspective but other aspects need to be added.

Do you know at what point in time can a person start this 8 year program, what are the minimum admission requirements?

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That does little to change the fact that if the sanad's are not equivalent, they are not equivalent. which I personally think they should not be more so after looking at the syllabus that you posted.

True they shouldn't be, but the point is they were acceptable when the MMA looked a better alternative then a possible PPP-ANP victory in Sarhad. Like I said the powers that be had a historic belief that the Islam pasand parties( as they were called) were better because of limited electoral influence they were more open to mainpulation. The point is when you apply a law it should be applied universally and as Ijaz ul Haq confirmed it wasn't. The disqualification now smacks off political victimisation and besides appeasing Uncle Sam will only add too Pakistan's problems.

so we know the syllabus from deoband, I think its a great syllabus from w religious perspective but other aspects need to be added.

Islamic education was historically multi disciplinary and included many "secular subjects". I am afraid I don't know much else about the syallabus, I think the best English research on it was by writer and researcher Tariq Rehman.

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Originally posted by Zakk: *
**According to a Dawn report of 11 Dec 2002, Mr Abdul Sattar Laleka, Minister for Labour, Manpower and Overseas Pakistanis, had always claimed to possess a GCE certificate, which is equivalent to matriculation. However, when the graduation condition was introduced, Mr Laleka produced a bachelor`s degree in business administration which, he claimed, had been awarded to him by the "Canadian School of Management" in 1990. The school could not be located at the address provided on the mark-sheet. *

Ahhh the same old dealio. We discussed this way back in dec last year. Look for a thread titled "ministers degree challenged" by yours truly.

If i had to hazrad a guess, I would say that laleka never went to this place. however the other arguments were pretty idiotic like the date the "marks sheet" was issued and that the school was no longer at its address.

canadian schol of mgmt did exist and had 2 karachi campuses. one in gulshan and one in DHS. anyways read the thread for more info on that subject.

True they shouldn't be, but the point is they were acceptable when the MMA looked a better alternative then a possible PPP-ANP victory in Sarhad. Like I said the powers that be had a historic belief that the Islam pasand parties( as they were called) were better because of limited electoral influence they were more open to mainpulation. The point is when you apply a law it should be applied universally and as Ijaz ul Haq confirmed it wasn't. The disqualification now smacks off political victimisation and besides appeasing Uncle Sam will only add too Pakistan's problems.

So if a mistake was made or a wrong decision was made do you suggest that we do not correct it at this point? whatever the motives may be if teh sanad is not equal to a degree, its not equal to a degree. lets just be clear about it.

*Islamic education was historically multi disciplinary and included many "secular subjects". I am afraid I don't know much else about the syallabus, I think the best English research on it was by writer and researcher Tariq Rehman. *

I know that islamic education was multi-disciplinary. I just dont think that the tons of madrassas follow that logic. as evident from the syllabus posted by yourself.

additionally, I am interested in finding out the requirements for admission to these schools? 10th grade, 12th garde? (SSC/HSC) primary school? I did not see any information on what an average sanad holders educational level was priot to getting into their sanad granting institutions.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Zakk:

Taking a hardline on the MMA is not about anything as noble as principles or for the sake of the country or even to stop Talibanisation, it's JUST about the MMA not playing ball.

[/QUOTE]

I think once again you are arguing without any real facts, based on assumptions and not much else, so I will pose a factual question for you on this topic.

Did you know that in terms of their share of overall seats in the National Assembly, there is one other big party who would reportedly be equally as affected (as the MMA) if the 'Sanad' is declared ineligible as a degree? Can you guess which party? :)

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*I think once again you are arguing without any real facts, based on assumptions and not much else, so I will pose a factual question for you on this topic. *

It is my opinion Malik, and is based on a very consistent record of the Election Commission and the CEC Mr Irshad as well as the Supreme Court. To my knowledge they have not at anytime challenged people or attempted to unseat people who were pro government.

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Here is an interesting development!

Pakistan court reinstates politician From BBC

Pakistan’s Supreme Court has suspended a decision by a lower court to remove a member of the National Assembly in a row over his qualifications.

The high court also suspended the lower court’s decision to hold new elections in the constituency of Mufti Ibrar Sultan, a member of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) Islamic alliance that is strongly opposed to President Pervez Musharraf.

An appeal to the decision is to be heard in September, when the Supreme Court will also make decisions on challenges against the elections of several other MMA members.

An election tribunal in Peshawar in north-west Pakistan had ruled last week that Mr Sultan’s qualification from a religious school - or madrassa - was not equivalent to a university degree, the minimum qualification required to stand in the parliamentary elections held last year.

The verdict sent shockwaves among members of the MMA, most of whom had contested elections on the basis of their madrassa education, says the BBC’s Zaffar Abbas.

‘Political motives’

The MMA denounced the decision as politically motivated, and Mr Sultan filed an appeal before the Supreme Court.

At the same time, another case was filed in the Supreme Court, challenging the elections of several other MMA members.

The decision has given temporary relief to the MMA, but its leaders know the crisis will not be over until the final settlement of the challenge in September, our correspondent says.

The MMA became Pakistan’s third largest party after elections in October when it tapped into anti-US sentiment in conservative areas bordering Afghanistan.