Military and state

In response to a mail of a friend in which he praised Musharraf, I wrote him back my views on what he terms to be the best government Pakistan has today. One of the argument that he had was that ‘had musharraf not been there, 9/11 wud have cost us our country’

My views were:

*Conditions of Pakistan at the time when 9/11 occurred were bad, in fact too bad, but there are some things to ponder over:

  1. The world believes, Bin Laden and his Al- Qaeda were bred in Afghanistan. That country fought war with ex soviet union. US beat Soviets there by waging a proxy war through Mujahideen who were trained and supported by our army and remember the ruler was Mard e Momin, Zia-ul-Haq. Had Pakistan under army rule at that time decided not to help US and get involved into Afghan issue, 9/11 would have not affected its prestige. I had International Relations as a subject so I know what that issue is and it can not be defined in a paragraph but somehow I can safely conclude it that “precisely, that moment was a trial for us to decide. Had we had an elected PM, like that of Bhutto, we would have gained more prestige from that opportunity than had lost it so brazenly.” A usurper like Zia could only make deals to secure his own position else US knows how to kick such people out. In fact, what the real tragedy of this nation is that its leadership hasn’t grown or has not been allowed to grow. India today reaps the harvest of the fruit of continued democracy. We are at least 57 years behind India, if not more.

  2. Armies, ever since their inception were supposed to be in the cantonments. Take muslim armies as a case which as an Institute evolved in the days of Hazrat Umar (RA). He created cantonments for them which were away from the living places of general populace in order to keep them in the continued state of preparedness to defend and attack as per necessities of the state. Military was never wanted to indulge with civilian matters which people are best suited to settle. History is evident that through the power of the gun, they have taken every available opportunity to take on the power not for the sake of boundaries but personal gains. Today, what we see in our country that most palatial buildings that we have in our country are in the cantonments and these cantonments are renamed like Defence Housing Authorities. If a soldier who lives in a comfortable villa can be trusted with the defence of the country, it’s a vain wish. No wonder they lost two wars and could not defend a part of the country in 1971.

  3. As if these villas weren’t enough, Military today runs business concerns. They started letting out the services of NLC (meant for the wartime transportation of men and machines) for commercial purposes and it continues till this day. Later, gas stations, still to come were contracts to build roads and buildings (FWO), farmlands (Take Okara as a case example), prepaid cards (Salaam card) and the list is endless.

  4. Not satisfied still, they took over WAPDA, PIA, Ports, etc. You have yet to learn what more are they planning to take over. Education? Is this spared? Now tell me, do you think that those elite military officers who take over the entire country can be trusted with all you have especially when you know that their basic education is “Intermediate or SSC Part-II, what ever u call it”?

I think I better stop highlighting what they are and tell you honestly that its them who are behind the failure of this state. Bureaucrats come next. Now to your question what did Nawaz and Benazir do when they were at the helm of affairs? They could not do it because they have to evolve in a system, a system to know what their role is to which they have never been acquainted because they worked under dictations. I would again relate this with the absence of continued democracy that lay behind their failure to deliver. Yes they were corrupt, despots and autocrats. They have to learn still that they have to rise above it if they were to be remembered in history with good words. I am not favouring these two but I firmly believe that it’s the elected leadership, which has to bring in change, none other can. Military being trained in destruction can never be wished upon to build. Bureaucrats being trained to learn the rules of business of the state and then ensure that the business is run as per peoples’ wishes can not be trusted to groom the national leaders (who come to offices after decades of military rule, totally ignorant of their role) as they have their interests involved in it. A knowing and knowledgeable Minister is a pain in the back of his Secretary of the Department. Why should not a bureaucrat keep him in dark of his powers? Its all understandable.

Often I weep when I see that the first institute of learning of every child, that is the lap of his/her mother, is devoid of such capacity building. Today’s mothers are caught in checking the transgresses of their spouses, stuck in running their homes with a meager sum of amount and are mostly not educated themselves.

In the end, I would say that your ideal Musharraf Sahab, doesn’t equal a dust particle of the feet of Plato who too in his “Republic” wished that the military should have their enclaves outside the cities. Why so? Just because their job is not to know what the people are doing but to defend their land inch by inch. I would like to end my comments here as I think I have spoken much and the so called intellectual in me when wakes up, I find it hard to sleep.
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Re: Military and state

The line of 'if it wasn't for Mush at 9/11' if rather decieving. If BB or NS were there they would have hardly chosen to side with Al-Qaeda!

Pakistan is not a country with an Army, it is an Army with a country, free to 'play' with and plunder at will.

Instead of a professional Army whose officers aim to attain the highest military standards, it is one that consists of those who aim for money and power.

The political system will never become what the country needs with the Army always manipulating it to its own wants.

Each Army govt has been a failure. Zia's years was the worst cancer possible. Now under Mush, we get some crumbs from US, and thus IMF,WB,etc that make various macroeconmic policies look good while poverty rate increases every year.

Many see Pakistan with a doomed future. Looking back at the history of Pakistan, the Army has a large role in this. The so called 'Defenders of Pakistan' have become 'Destroyers of Pakistan'. Sad.

Re: Military and state

some of my old friend quoted very good and impressive comments on such Army actions that 'This is the most unique army of the world that after 10-11 years occupies its own country'.

Now imagine if u make your army a full hero which on every front has failed to prove .. how could the think they are loosers

In accountability beaurue (NAB) i have never never seen any case from any Army General..

Plz let me know if anyone has seen

Re: Military and state

Capricorn,
your friend seems to have a better percetion of things around...

what i think of your views is this:

point 1.
well, ok, if Bhutto was so great and someone like him, or any 'democratic' leader could have won a better strategic postion for Pakistan with a better plan post 9/11 than Musharraf did, just ponder over this...Bhutto was the one who made a mess of the problems with Bengali Pakistanis in 1971, if he wasnt able to correct that internal issue and exploit it, i wonder how he or someone like him, be it Lucipher himself but an 'elected socalled democrat' for all your lobby cares, could have done something of use for Pakistan against extrenal threat coming from the worlds greatest powers...?

point 2
Hazrat Umar AS was a military commander (general) himself.

point 3
travel in Pakistan and see for yourself, all roads constructed by the Army- FWO, all concerns being administered by the military and so on...compare them with public sector ventures under civil administrations and if you dont see it for yourself, ask a common man on the side walk about the difference; he's the one who feels the impact heaviest and first!

point 4
about the part where you appear confused over the education of military officers. you seem to know a lot, how come you didnt know how educated they are...? before setting out to defame someone one must have enough material to atleast try and present views with reasoning. how old and qualified are ppl like you and me when they go to universities? yes they are around 18-19 and have a Intermediate HSSC, A levels or High school Diploma certifying 12 yrs of education. Thats what military officers have when they go to their academies. what do they do there? what you and I do at universities. that is graduate! they do that with equal importance given to military training, which means they are made tough enough to handle lots of pressure and handle situations, unlike you and I. and after graduating, almost all officers who ever make it anywhere above major, possess atleast one masters level degree earned from a world class renowned institution, if you need proff, meet any officer and ask him, if he doesnt have a degree in strategic affairs, Int'l relations, politics, defense studies, or any subject at all, chances are 7 out of 10 officers he knows of his rank would. so rest assured of their capabilities and educational qualifications and expertise. they are the best, sorry if that gives us civilians a complex...

and, Plato wasnt a prophet...so holding his views like scriptuires is irrational...

the 'Defenders of Pakistan' is the only reason Pakistan remains...

I dont mean to say they should be doing what civilians should do, I just say they are doing it better, because the civilians make a mess out of it as they are too often inspired by self interest and corruption...and yes, there is corruption in the militray too, NOT even close to as much as in the civil administration ranks...thats common knowledge we cant deny.

Re: Military and state

^ Plato used logic which is a lot more substantial than scripture touting prophets...which rely on soft attributes like faith.

Re: Military and state

shahzad, an Admiral of the Navy (equal to a 4 start general) who was chief during the 90s, his name i cant recall at the moment, his has been one of the biggest cases NAB has handled.

Re: Military and state

so Prophets have insignificant priorities and are illogical? you dont seem to be in a right state.

Re: Military and state

scriptures are based on faith..not logic.. don't worry about my state son...you have no clue.

Re: Military and state

Thats because he was a major Bhutto ally. Anyways the question was about an Army general, there is a difference.

In regards to your point about Army run institutions, one example look at the KESC, last year posted biggest losses EVER.

Army institutions have ten times bigger budget then any comparable thing in Pak, so of course they should be doing things better!

And what the hell are Army doing building roads?! Is that a professional Army?! Of course they make much money out of these schemes.

Army will never allow any proper political system to develop in Pak.

Army of any country defends the countries borders, yet Pak Army seems to think they are special in the world because they do same job as any other Army in the world.

Re: Military and state

Haris Zuberi, here are my views on your arguments:-

Point # 1:- Bhutto did not mess up with East Pakistan issue. He was used by the army itself, if not Punjabis, to counter the legal claim of Bengalis to the Prime Ministership. Please excuse me if you are of the view that Bhutto was there in the one unit issue too.

Point # 2:-
Call Hazrat Umar as Chief Commander (President/PM in democracy), that would be right. The Chief stays with the nation and in contact with the general populace.

Point # 3:-
152 kms of Gawadar-Karachi Motorway washed away in recent rains and no inquiry held so far. Travel from Hyderabad to upcountry on National Highway, the patch from Hyderabad till Hala was constructed by Japanese in 1984-85 and it still is wonderfully intact with no repairs made so far. Afterwards, it was FWO who got the contract to build the rest of the National Highway. The work in Sindh restarted in 1993 (still to be finished till Sindh's border with Punjab) and see what quality that road is! Just for your information, the terms of payments demanded by FWO are religiously accepted and they do not offer any comisssions to any Civil Engineer (the rest of the civilain contratcors spent 30% in commissions). Last but not the least, its FWO meaning Frontier Works Organization, does that make it clear why they exist? If they are for any reason so dedicated to provide services, they ought to offer them free as they are paid from the public exchequer. I think Haris you would be of the view that the money so earned from these contracts is spent on the well being of the nation?

Point # 4:- I didnt say Plato is a prophet but if you prove him to be inferior to Musharraf, I can only smile at you. No further arguments on it my dear.

Re: Military and state

so faith is illogical…? i still wonder about your state.
and yes, ofcourse, i have no clue, i cant see you…why dont you enlighten us…?

Re: Military and state

Capricorn,
yes Plato was a genius, in his area of expertise, philosohphy, thinking etc i.e.

Musharraf is a general, if you could refer to any generals from Plato's time following his advice word by word with eyes closed science of strategy packed in the bag, maybe Mush will try it too. of course i dont compare them. both are experts in their fields. and i didnt say anyhting about proving him inferior to anyone. on the other hand, if you think any philosopher can be superior to a politician or a military commander in actual execution of governing tasks, let me know. thinking is one thing, doing another. btw, i'm a great fan of all the famous philosophers and i'm sure Mush would hold them in high regard too. but, not highly enough to follow everyhting they conceived blinbdly.

for the other issues, yes no point in arguing, we're on two diff and distant sides and schools of thought i guess.

Re: Military and state

In bold:

  1. Alexander the great did. If you have read, he did what Aristotle taught him, word by word. I think there is no great a general than Alexander. Any objection? Please enlighten me on it.

  2. Yes, ofcourse they are two different experts. One’s expertise is in laying down the principles of governing, other’s is how to defend. The objective of this thread is the later’s attempt to get into the shoes of former.

  3. What is holding high concept if you negate the basic principles? Thanks for the explanation (in italics), do you mean to say what Plato said was stupid in the first place?

Underlined:- I am obliged. Thats the way one should part from going on in arguments. Yes we are from different school of thoughts and there may not be any point of agreement between us.

Re: Military and state

yes Capricorn,
good example of Alexander the Great, and indeed he has been one of the greatest generals mankind will ever know, and he was a general, a warrior, and not a ruler and democratic politician at all, he may have been a bonapartist had he been around today, as the term goes. here following what philosophers taught was being discussed in the light of obeying principles of political governance, ruling etc not the art of conquering. Alex followed Aris, no doubt, but in his expansive militray adventures not in matters of republic, which you said generals ought to learn from philosophers or smthng to that effect. if indeed in truth Alex did follow any of Aris's teachings in non military governance, let me know and i may stand corrected.
my point is just that the ground reality in battle or in senate is known only by the one who's been there done that. a politician can be a good one if he governs after he knows what his ppl are like and what they want or dont want...a general can be successful only if he is ready to kill and get killed in battle...
i dont negate Plato's principles at all and hold him in high regard, and many generals hold philophers close to their hearts, i do too, for good reason, all i say is no principles can be applied all the time without knowing the situations on ground. for eg the strategies developed by Napolean, Nelson, Tipu, Alexander etc were great military strategies but a general fighting a battle today, cannot 'blindly' apply their wisdom to just any random situation in battle. he can develop his plans around them according to what the conditions are at ground zero.