Facing the new ball is very difficult. The risk of trying to HIT every ball is far greater. New ball does weird things. I would be happy with a RR of 3.5 to 4 without losing more than a wicket in the first fifteen.
Going hay wire in the first fifteen was ONLY successful for the Lankans for a short period of time. It was mainly due to the fact that their TWO most aggressive batsmen happened to be the Openers too. Kalu and Jayasuriya would bat in that manner no matter what stage of the game it is.
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*Originally posted by funguy: *
Facing the new ball is very difficult. The risk of trying to HIT every ball is far greater. New ball does weird things. I would be happy with a RR of 3.5 to 4 without losing more than a wicket in the first fifteen.
Going hay wire in the first fifteen was ONLY successful for the Lankans for a short period of time. It was mainly due to the fact that their TWO most aggressive batsmen happened to be the Openers too. Kalu and Jayasuriya would bat in that manner no matter what stage of the game it is.
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But what about Gilli and Hayden, they also go haywire in the first 15 overs, similiar can be said about Sehwag and Tendulkar.
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*Originally posted by funguy: *
Facing the new ball is very difficult. The risk of trying to HIT every ball is far greater. New ball does weird things. I would be happy with a RR of 3.5 to 4 without losing more than a wicket in the first fifteen.
Going hay wire in the first fifteen was ONLY successful for the Lankans for a short period of time.
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Again you are missing the point fg. No one is asking anybody to go HAYWIRE or hit EVERY ball. With the field in, there are naturally more boundaries in any case which is why nearly every team manages to consistently post 70 plus runs in the first 15 overs. And with the new ball you can get out playing defensively as well, that's just one of those things.
I don’t mind it if Pakistan post 60 or anything above that in first 15 over if they don’t lose wicket. Main problem with Pakistan was that they were losing too many wickets too early. I think one of the reason Pakistan’s Middle and lower order playing well is that they don’t have to go in early.
Hafeez and Yasir both are new to the international scene and they need a bit of experience. Once they start feeling comfortable, they will (and they have to) make shift towards the faster 15 overs.
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*Originally posted by Decent 6Chora: *
I just checked the status of Auz vs Zim test. At the end of day one Aus is 372 for 3 (on a fast pitch) and India were 269 for 2 in same amount of overs on a batting track. I guess this is the difference b/w Aussies and Rest of the world. They are always positive in their game. No matter what version of the game are they playing they always keep up the score moving and give the audiance fun for their money.
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so you seem to have mixed views on scoring rates.
Anyway, I am sure that any half decent opening pair can get around 70 runs from the first 15 overs without playing dumb shots and I think you'll find that most do.
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*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
Well you just posted this in the India/NZ thread:
so you seem to have mixed views on scoring rates.
Anyway, I am sure that any half decent opening pair can get around 70 runs from the first 15 overs without playing dumb shots and I think you'll find that most do.
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I think he is talking about test matches in above post quoted.
Well If SA and other teams consistently post 70 odd runs in the first 15 overs and then fizzle out in the next 30 what is the point. The strategy of batting fast during the first 15 overs has not really paid off for the SA team including the match they won. We are perhaps too slow in the first 15 overs but this is also part of the learning curve and lets give the players a chance, Hafeez's failure not withstanding. I would rather they scored 50/0 in the first 15 and then launch an assault on the opposition with wickets in hand in the last 10 overs. To score 70 odd runs in the first 15 overs you need the players of the calibre of Saeed and Aamir. We don't have any at the moment so we have to play according ot our limitations.
ehsan, the S Africans don't fizzle out in the next 30 overs because they have had a good start, they fizzle out because the players coming in next couldn't capitalise on it.
Similarly, we haven't reached 270 totals because of our 15 over crawls but because the middle order has come in and got on with it and then some wonder hitting at the end. Let's give credit where it's due, to the SA openers and our middle order.
Yaasir has done a good job as well I think only Hafeez has failed to get going in this series. Who knows, maybe he'll do it next match, I'm only going by the past 3 matches where the pattern has been pretty much the same.
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*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
ehsan, the S Africans don't fizzle out in the next 30 overs because they have had a good start, they fizzle out because the players coming in next couldn't capitalise on it.
Similarly, we haven't reached 270 totals because of our 15 over crawls but because the middle order has come in and got on with it and then some wonder hitting at the end. Let's give credit where it's due, to the SA openers and our middle order.
Yaasir has done a good job as well I think only Hafeez has failed to get going in this series. Who knows, maybe he'll do it next match, I'm only going by the past 3 matches where the pattern has been pretty much the same.
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Well that is the whole point. SA could not capitalise and our middle overs got on with it. In a way it seems that the first 15 overs are not that important unless the team performs consistently throughout the innings. Another example of this was when Pakistan lost in the 1996 qtr finals to India in Bangalore. Saeed and Aamir blasted the ball all around the ground and made over 100 runs in 15 odd overs only to fizzle out and lose the match. The conclusion has to be that you have to perform consistently throughout the match and if you have wickets in hand at the end than you can accelerate.
ehsan, the conclusion I draw is different. The first 15 overs are important and so are the next 35. It's up to everyone to do their jobs and when you break it down, our top order aren't doing it in the first 15 but the middle order are doing a good job at present.
Again, the Bangalore match is a perfect example which illustrates the importance of everybody doing their individual jobs. Aamir and Saeed gave us a fantastic platform to win that match but the middle order failed to do their part. In no way could you blame the openers on that occasion, the hard work had been done, all it needed was for the middle order to keep it ticking.
I think it really depends on what type of batting lineup you are dealing with, if you have fragile openers but an established middle order, then it is good to keep the RR down in the first 15 overs and go all out in the end.
But some teams have good openers but an avg middle order as in the case of SL in 96.
And low order Pakistani batsmen don't guarentee you big hittings in the end, it was one of those once in blue moon days for Razzaq.
South Africa was not able to totaly capatlise on it in this series only. They have been a dominant force over the years. Secondly do take in consideration South Africans came mighty close in the first match chasing target under lights. We will have to see what our batsmen do if they are given a target like that. I would like to see us bat second in the next match and see what strategy our batman adopt in chasing the target. If they are chasing something like 270-280 we will have to get a good start, this 45-1 wont work then.
Yasir is playing fine, its Hafeez who is screwing it up. He cant justify his selection in team as a specialist bowler, its his opening that gets him selected and I think now its safe to say that he has failed to deliver. We need someone other then him with a possitive approach.
Hafeez could justify his selection only if were getting 50-0 in most games but we aren’t. I think his scores so far are 5, 7 and 20. And that’s without taking any risks.
I will agree with LahoriMunda and Mr Xtreme on the Hafeez thing. If we want to keep HAfeez as a opener than why not Afridi, he can also do the same thing and atleast he hits 1 SIX or 1 Four before he gets himself out. So i think PCB should try Imran Farhat in the 4th ODI.
I would like to see Imran Farhat in the next match too but his name is in the reserves. Salman Butt was dropped (huh) after constant failure from the openers we drop another opener, bring in a middle order batsman and mess it all up. When Inzimam got injured we could have opened with Salman Butt and Yasir Hameed and moved Hafeez down the order to see how he does. Shoaib Malik was awfully slow as an opener too but he is doing wonders in the lower middle order, we should have taken a chance with Hafeez too to see how he does.
As for the new ball, my view is that with the field in first 15 overs, there are plenty of opportunities to pick up boundaries AND defend the good deliveries as the South Africans have shown. Our best ever ODI opening pair were Aamir Sohail and Saeed Anwar and they didn't hang about, they took the attack to the opposition.
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.. and we can make use of those oppurtunities. hameed is a clean hitter of the ball, not a slogger. and yeah i also think hafeez shd be dropped. in pakistan cricket no one gets as much chance as he has got, althou his bowling has been saving the day for him. but we need someone else who can do some "sensible" batting.
i think farhat or naved latif shd be given another chance or perhaps imran nazir. he has what it takes to be our permanent opener, and i think miandad can hone his skills and curb his over-aggression. but he isnt a bowler and we will need a 6th bowler. thats y i feel farhat is rite now our best choice.
n i do think rashid or younis shd open for just this series thou or mayb even abdur. hafeez can go lower down the order..
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*Originally posted by LahoriMunda: *
South Africa was not able to totaly capatlise on it in this series only. They have been a dominant force over the years. Secondly do take in consideration South Africans came mighty close in the first match chasing target under lights. We will have to see what our batsmen do if they are given a target like that. I would like to see us bat second in the next match and see what strategy our batman adopt in chasing the target. If they are chasing something like 270-280 we will have to get a good start, this 45-1 wont work then.
Yasir is playing fine, its Hafeez who is screwing it up. He cant justify his selection in team as a specialist bowler, its his opening that gets him selected and I think now its safe to say that he has failed to deliver. We need someone other then him with a possitive approach.
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LM the fact that they came close had nothing to do with the first 15 overs. Secondly Pakistan are bad chasers, so I dont think they will be able to chase such a huge total sucessfully. Coming close is one thing, winning it is quite another.
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*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
In test matches the scoring rate is LESS important so he has his priorities mixed up in that case.
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nah I dont have the mixup in views neither priorities.
I consider 60 as OK target for first 15 overs (if we dont lose wickets) in ODI because both the openers are new and Pakistanis were in the habbit of losing wickets quickly in near past. Else when Pakistan had a bating lineup of
Amir Sohail
Saeed Anwar
Ijaz Ahmed
Javed Miandad
Inzemam
Imran
then i loved the way saeed and Amir used to go after the bowling. I am just saying give them a time. Let them feel comfortable. Let the middle order (and lower middle order ) prove that they can STAY at the wicket even if openers get out quickly. The i'll love to see Hafeez and Yasir going after the bowling.
Oh yeah 3 runs per over is REALLY slow i want them to keep the RR at 4 till 15 overs without losing wickets.