Merits of the Companions (Part 1)

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Ibrahim;

You have an amazing ability to divert readers off the topic.

The hadith on Umar's rebellion is a Sahih hadith.

Regardless of Bukhari's footnote, it is in the sahih, therefore, it is authentic.

The event took place. Umar led a dissension against the prophet's (pbuh) final command.

All your ranting and raving will not change that, regardless of any hadiths you post on your the greatness of your so called sahabahs.

The hadith on the Terrible Thursday took place. Bukhari admits it. Muslim admits it. Tirmidhi admits it. And countless other sunni authors have recorded this event.

Face the truth and stop crying shia shia.

And for the sake of others on this board, stick to the topic.

May Allah (swt) enlighten you.

42

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**

FF;

Pls cast yr thoughts on this authentic hadith from Sahih Muslim:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html

Book 001, Number 0141:
Zirr reported: 'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

Now apply this standard to Muwayah, Aisha, and others who opposed and nursed a grudge against Imam Ali (as), who was the rightful Commander of the Faithful.

The hadith is applicable at all times, for all people, regardless of the reasons / motivation for rebelling against the holy Imam (as).

ws

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited December 25, 2001).]

43

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.716 Narrated by Ibn Abbas

Thursday! And how great that Thursday was! The ailment of Allah's Apostle became worse (on Thursday) and he said, fetch me something so that I may write to you something after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter, and it was not right to differ before a prophet. ** Some said, "What is wrong with him? (Do you think ) he is delirious (seriously ill) **
[/quote]

AND NOW THIS HADITH

[quote]

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 1.114 Narrated by Ubaidullah bin Abdullah

Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.'

[/quote]

Look at the above two hadiths and it becomes amply clear that Umar called the prophet (pbuh) delirious and dis-obeyed the holy prophet's (pbuh) command.

ws

44

Hazrat Umer (R.A) also argued against the Sulaeh Hadebia .. but Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was happy as muslims have absolute right to ask anything.. Its a religion where our Prophet always went for ijma - consensus of all muslims.. at many instances during propherts life and ghazwats it was Prophet Muhammads method of asking the views of Sahabas and taking decision of majority. Its impossible to make happy all in this worls.. the decision of making Khilfat of Abu Bakr, Umer , Usman and Ali was very logical.. it was such a sane decision which helped the great religion of Islam to expand far corners of the world.. who became Caliph is insignificant as personalities are not important in Islam but name of God is.. all humans make mistakes but making them a part of religion is senseless... a very vast majority of muslims at that time and also now considered Caliphate of Hazrat Abu bakr, Umer and Usman and then Ali as just and the few who didnt liked it are not important enough .
Hadrat Ali (R.A.) had taken pledge of loyalty on the hands of all the three past Khalifahs..Hadrat Ali (R.A.) was one of the very important members of "Shura" (Advisory Council) during the time of the first three Khalifahs. He was also the great jurist (Mufti) of Medina during the time of past Khalifahs. He was among the panel of six persons who had to select the Khalifah amongst themselves after Hadrat Umar (R.A.). Hadrat Uthman had great regard for him and consulted him in all the matters. His sons were the main guards at Uthman’s residence when the rebels laid siege to his house.
imamat by family inheritance has no value in Islam. as long as shias consider their 12 imamas as infallible and some super humans above even previous messengers of God there is is no sense in debating anything since very vast majority of muslims cant even imagine such thing can happen in religion of Islam. those who hate Sahabas can judge from Hazrat Alis decision of naming his two sons as Abu Bakr and Usman and not follow some hate spreading people.

45

Degas;

You do not disagree or question the holy prophet (pbuh). Please read and understand the following quranic ayat:

[Shakir 4:65] But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.

The opening phrase of this verse (No, by your Lord) asserts that the decision of Allah is final and irrevocable. Allah has decreed that the Holy Prophet's judgements, decisions and directions (concerning all material, spiritual, personal and public matters) should be accepted and carried out by his followers, else profession of their faith would not be genuine and sincere.

Fima shajara baynahum gives unlimited powers to the Holy Prophet.

Thumma la yajidu fi anfusihim seals the decisive nature of the Holy Prophet's judgements, decisions and directions. No one has any right whatsoever to disagree with him in thought and action.

Yusallimu taslima implies total surrender to him without any reservation.

It was the misfortune of the Muslim ummah that they made a wrong decision after the departure of the Holy Prophet.

Even at the last moment he asked his companions to bring a sheet of paper and a pen so that he could write that which would prevent them from going astray, after him, but the people around him did not want him to commit his will in writing. One of them (Umar) said:

"The book of Allah is sufficient for us."

(Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Fat-hul Bari, Tabrani, Tarikh Ahmadi).

This declaration by one of the companions, who also observed that "the old man was in a delirium" was a wilful contravention of this and many such verses of the Quran, because we cannot say that he was an ignorant fool who was not aware of the book of Allah.

ws

46

[quote]
Originally posted by ThandyMazaq:
** sorry man, the article does not give explanation of why mauyiah chose his son to lead the islamic empire, when such great other ishabs were living....during the reign of yazid, khana-e-kaba was besieged...that was the most horrendous act...i just have this question..why did he choose yazid to lead islamic empir as if it was his own domain??? i have nothing else against him..but thinking the islamic empire to be private property is un justifiable....can any one explain??
i m not shia, alhamdulillah, but i do know one thing, the love prophet SAW had for hussian RTU was far greater than he had for yazid or mauyiah, and his martydom was horrible as he was martyred by so called muslims, lead by yazid, son of mauwiah. **
[/quote]

The reason I posted the link was the misconception shias have created against Amir Muawiyah. The post by brother ThandyMazaq is a very good example.

As regards his giving the khilafat to his son. Is that an issue that should change his position from what Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) had said? And, he was a human. May be, I repeat, may be, he was wrong. But it was his judgement. Can we sit back now and say that there were other sahaba better than his son, so he should have made someone else the khalifa. Come on brother, I call that unfair and malicious.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

47

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Degas;

You do not disagree or question the holy prophet (pbuh).**
[/quote]

Are you implying that Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) did not carry out ijma and discussion with the sahaba to get their opinion?

**
[quote]
It was the misfortune of the Muslim ummah that they made a wrong decision after the departure of the Holy Prophet.**
[/quote]

Which wrong decision?

**
[quote]
Even at the last moment he asked his companions to bring a sheet of paper and a pen so that he could write that which would prevent them from going astray, after him, but the people around him did not want him to commit his will in writing. One of them (Umar) said:

"The book of Allah is sufficient for us."

(Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Fat-hul Bari, Tabrani, Tarikh Ahmadi).**
[/quote]

Brother Ibrahim has produced a footnote which you have prefered not to accept and have, as usual, labeled him; which is a clear sign of helplessness.

I have asked for a reference in Sahaih Bukhari as what you quoted was from Sahih Muslim. I am still waiting.

**
[quote]
This declaration by one of the companions, who also observed that "the old man was in a delirium" was a wilful contravention of this and many such verses of the Quran, because we cannot say that he was an ignorant fool who was not aware of the book of Allah.**
[/quote]

Astaghfir Allah! In your eagerness to lie and try to prove your point you have used conjecture when you claim that Omar (radhi Allaho anh) said "the old man was in a delirium". And you have used the words we cannot say that he was an ignorant fool yourself for Rasool Allah.

May Allah guide you.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

48

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
** Putting aside the fact of being a shia or sunni, as this is irrelevant, it would be prudent to research on Muwayah's relationship with Usman and his influence on the 3rd Caliph.**
[/quote]

This is furthering the cause of shiaism. You want to present yourself as unbiased and wish to create misiunderstanding by posting nothing but conjecture.

What was Amir Muawiyah's relationship to Rasool Allah? Will you say that all the hadeeth refered to in the link were the result of this influence?
**
[quote]
This influence gave rise to the treachery of the Ummayad dynasty, and the creation of false hadiths were generated to belittle the household of the prophet's (pbuh) family.**
[/quote]

OK, so you are trying to say that Usman (radhi Alaho anh) was responsible for what happened after his death.

**
[quote]
You have touched on a very important issue: Imam Hussain (as) was the beloved grandson of the holy prophet (pbuh), yet the so called muslims decided to side with the tyrant head of Syria.**
[/quote]

People side on the basis of beliefs and convictions, this is true Islam. Not on the basis of relationships and other affiliations. But, shiaism is based on affiliation by relationship, which is not Islam.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

49

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Ibrahim;
The **hadith on Umar's rebellion is a Sahih hadith.

Regardless of Bukhari's footnote, it is in the sahih, therefore, it is authentic.

The event took place. Umar led a dissension against the prophet's (pbuh) final command.

All your ranting and raving will not change that, regardless of any hadiths you post on your the greatness of your so called sahabahs.**
[/quote]

Apparently, you have no idea of the science of hadeeth collection.

When the collector collects a hadeeth, he cross references it with other known narrations and evidences. If something is contrary to other evidence, it is discarded. If it is somewhat correct, the collector, like Imam Bukhari, who is an undisputed authority, will give footnote giving his reservations.

You prefer to believe that there was dissension and that Omar (radhi Allaho anh) led it. Go ahead, your choice. You will be accountable for yourself, for all those you mislead by these statements and all those who are misled by those you have meisled until the Day of Resurrection. Very heavy burden.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

50

Try posting a reply to your post, using the quote facility and you may understand what you cannot understand from words.

Which brian are you refering to? I know a few.

Long posts are a waste of time. I can very easily say in one line what you try in one para. The people read them and understand, except a few, who lack grey matter.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

51

[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
** u claim to be not a students of history yet u hold strong opinion regarding the history. Ur ignorance seems to go as far as not knowing who gave the caliphate to Mauawiya. Caliphate was not given to Mauayiya rather it was taken away.**
[/quote]

I am not a student of history, but I know fact from fiction and slander. Amir Muawiyah had differences with Ali (radhi Allaho anh) but the shias have blown them out of proportion and are not even willing to follow the guidance from Rasool Allah's ahadeeth about him. May Allah guide them.

Hazratr Hassan (ra) had few supporters after the dispatches of many supports of Ali (as) by the battles such as battle of siffian when Muwayiya was fighting against the rightly guided caliph Hazrat Ali (ra).

**
[quote]
Also according to the treaty Hasan should have been the next caplih but he was poisoned. And thus Yazids became the caliph who matyted Iman Hussain (ra) in Karabla.**
[/quote]

Is that what your history teaches? May Allah have mercy on the souls of such liars. In the treaty, Hassan gave the khilafah. That is why shias do not respect Hassan as much as they revere Hussain. Learn facts, not fiction. Belief in lies will take you to Hellfire.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 26, 2001).]

52

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:

[quote]
Ibrahim; You have an amazing ability to divert readers off the topic.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

A1shah, where you able to answer any question so far, or all you were able to do is post something new, so that you can divert the topic?

[quote]
The hadith on Umar's rebellion is a Sahih hadith. Regardless of Bukhari's footnote, it is in the sahih, therefore, it is authentic.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: So now Umar (ra) was a rebel because he chose to object based on the circumstances and information that was available to him? Maybe you want us to guess what they were on the limited hadith details like you? .

Naaw! let me help you proof that Umar (ra) had his distinct character , which the Prophet (pbuh) had loved dearly.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 4.515 Narrated by Sad bin Abi Waqqas

Once Umar asked the leave to see Allah's Apostle in whose company there were some ** Quraishi women who were talking to him and asking him for more financial support raising their voices. When 'Umar asked permission to enter the women got up (quickly) hurrying to screen themselves. ** When Allah's Apostle admitted 'Umar, Allah's Apostle was smiling, 'Umar asked, "O Allah's Apostle! May Allah keep you gay always." Allah's Apostle said, ** "I am astonished at these women who were with me. As soon as they heard your voice, they hastened to screen themselves." 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You have more right to be feared by them." Then he addressed (those women) saying, "O enemies of your own souls! Do you fear me and not Allah's Apostle?" ** They replied. "Yes, for you are a fearful and fierce man as compared with Allah's Apostle." On that ** Allah's Apostle said (to 'Umar), "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, whenever Satan sees you taking a path, he follows a path other than yours." **

Ibrahim says: Now for the surprise, which will shake your infallible theories and drown you in misery forever!

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 2.447 Narrated by Umar bin Al Khattab

When 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul died, Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) was called upon to offer his funeral prayer. ** When Allah's Apostle stood up to offer the prayer, I got up quickly and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Are you going to pray for Ibn Ubai and he said so and so on such and such occasions?" And started mentioning all that he had said. Allah's Apostle smiled and said, "O 'Umar! Go away from me." When I talked too much he said, "I have been given the choice and so I have chosen (to offer the prayer). Had I known that he would be forgiven by asking for Allah's forgiveness for more than seventy times, surely I would have done so." ('Umar added):** Allah's Apostle offered his funeral prayer and returned and ** after a short while the two verses of Surat Bara' were revealed: i.e. "And never (O Muhammad) pray for any of them who dies . . . (to the end of the verse) rebellion (9.84)." ('Umar added), "Later I astonished at my daring before Allah's Apostle on that day. ** And Allah and His Apostle know better."

Ibrahim says : Hence when the Prophet (pbuh) chose to do what was objected by Umar (ra) a verse was revealed to correct the Prophet (pbuh)

THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE PROPHET (pbuh) HAD ERRED BUT it reveals that Allah (swt) is just and had chosen the companion of the Prophets with distinct characters to assist him , just like the companions of Prophet Nuh (pbuh) were considered arrogant by the people of that time frame .

Ibrahim says: Now before you come back and claim Umar (ra)( na-uzubillah) was a rebel

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.34 Narrated by Ibn Abbas

When (the dead body of) 'Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was ** 'Ali bin Abi Talib. 'Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for 'Umar and said, "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. ** By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often** I used to hear the Prophet saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went out.' "**

Ibrahim says: Wait, maybe you start claiming Ali (ra) was mistaken, let us see what the Prophet (pbuh) felt with regards to Umar (ra)?

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.342 Narrated by Abdullah bin Umar

Umar bin Al-Khattab said, "When (my daughter) Hafsa bint 'Umar lost her husband Khunais bin Hudhaifa As-Sahrni who was one of the companions of Allah's Apostle and had fought in the battle of Badr and had died in Medina, I met 'Uthman bin 'Affan and suggested that he should marry Hafsa saying, "If you wish, I will marry Hafsa bint 'Umar to you,' on that, he said, 'I will think it over.' I waited for a few days and then he said to me. 'I am of the opinion that I shall not marry at present.' Then I met Abu Bakr and said, 'if you wish, I will marry you, Hafsa bint 'Umar.' He kept quiet and did not give me any reply and I became more angry with him than I was with Uthman . ** Some days later, Allah's Apostle demanded her hand in marriage and I married her to him. ** Later on Abu Bakr met me and said, "Perhaps you were angry with me when you offered me Hafsa for marriage and I gave no reply to you?' I said, 'Yes.' ** Abu Bakr said, 'Nothing prevented me from accepting your offer except that I learnt that Allah's Apostle had referred to the issue of Hafsa and I did not want to disclose the secret of Allah's Apostle , but had he (i.e. the Prophet) given her up I would surely have accepted her." **

Ibrahim says: So, the rebel ( Na-uzubillah) that you are so fond of slandering was whom the Prophet (pbuh) chose to take as his father in law.

TOO BAD you FAIL all the time,

[quote]
Look at the above two hadiths and it becomes amply clear that Umar called the prophet (pbuh) delirious and dis-obeyed the holy prophet's (pbuh) command.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; First You did not tell us why you had to edit and omit the parts of the hadiths? just as you like to quote mistranslated verses in your earlier posts, your dirty habit always remains and gets exposed over and over again! But you clearly evade them, when exposed, by changing the subject.

Now with regards to the hadiths , who would know best as to what was the state of the Prophet (pbuh) , you or those present at the time?

If Umar (ra) said he was seriously ill, are you going to tell me and proof to us the Prophet (pbuh) was not seriously ill at that time?

THINK before you open your mouth in religious matters! I already shown you above that The Prophet (pbuh) preferred to have Umar (ra) as his companion which Ali (ra) is attesting for, are you questioning his judgment? Or maybe you are questioning Allah (swt)'s absolute will to make him present at the time?

[quote]
Even at the last moment he asked his companions to bring a sheet of paper and a pen so that he could write that which would prevent them from going astray, after him, but the people around him did not want him to commit his will in writing.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: and what that can be? when an entire Qur’an has been revealed? I am sure you will tell us it was concerning who will be the next leader, so before you start fumbling

Let me reveal to you, how it had been ordained!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.325 Narrated by Abdullah bin Umar

It was said to 'Umar, ** "Will you appoint your successor?" ** Umar said, "If I appoint a Caliph (as my successor) it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Abu Bakr) did so, ** and if I leave the matter undecided, it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Allah's Apostle) did so." On this, the people praised him. ** 'Umar said, "People are of two kinds: Either one who is keen to take over the Caliphate or one who is afraid of assuming such a responsibility. ** I wish I could be free from its responsibility in that I would receive neither reward nor retribution. I won't bear the burden of the caliphate in my death as I do in my life." **

Ibrahim says: hence all the Shia claims/slanders/false accusations about the closest companions of the Prophet (pbuh) are outright slander based on their erroneous teachings/pride which their imams preach so that the people will end up paying zakat to them instead of the poor to whom it is rightfully due.

Allah (swt) knows best

Was salaam
Ibrahim

53

Originally posted by Ibrahim:

[quote]

Iqra 786! I suppose this was too difficult for you to understand.” : Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein:” that was part of an ayah , not my words!

[quote]

the divisions can be solve easily if u unite iwht us hten we wil have no devison will we?

I haven’t called myself a shia. U r the one who is levelling anyone who doesn’t agree with ur statements. U r creating divison. Wot do u call urself? A true muslim with wahhabi beliefs?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

**

nor did Prophet (pbuh) mentioned abt sunni, wahhabi, hanafi, maliki etc. so all of thse sect/madhab is a diff religion other than Islam in according to ur logic?

I can assure u that shia ulema believes that this religion called Islam is not based on any man or his works, the only representative for Islam today is the Qur’an and the Path ( sunnah) that the appointed Prophet of Islam practiced and preached. Sunni ulema have no problem of accepting shia madhab as fifth madhab (a fatwa already been given by AL azhar university in Egypt the leading sunni institute in the world), only the wahhabis has the problem with islamic unity.

**

I shall quote ur original post where u tried to use one to explain other. U mischievously tried to use the verse where Allah told us not to make distinction between Prophets of Allah as not to make distinction between Companion. How pathetic r u?
Ur original post:

[quote]

**Let me make this abundantly clear to you.
Read!
6: 159 As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. **quote]

same goes with other sect in islam such as the one I have mentioned already.

I don’t doubt Allah’s word. Allah said Allah will reward those who suffered for HIS cause, and Allah knows the intention of those who did suffer for His cause or for their own cause. Ibrahim do u consider urself of sharing the power of knowing wot is one’s hearth with Allah?

from the history we can see how sincere one was in their intention and as there r haddith ul quri via which our prophet (pbuh) warned us abt some of companions who will go astray after the Prophet(pbuh) left the duina, so we r careful on to see whom we should follow. We r told by Prophet that Ali is with the Quran and Ali is with the believers. So if any companion oppose Ali we know whom should we follow.

While u ibrahim trying to rank all in one level in Quran, we r reminded in many places of the various ranks and degrees of people that exist due to their actions, piety and knowledge. For example, (6:132) we r told that:

“ For all there will be degrees (or ranks) according to what they did. And your Lord is not unaware of what they do.”

And also in 58:11
“…Allâh will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those who have been granted knowledge. And Allâh is Well-Acquainted with what you do.”

We also informed, that within righteous, there are ranks amongst themselves:

“They believe in Allâh and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma’rûf (Islâmic Monotheism, and following Prophet Muhammad SAW) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and opposing Prophet Muhammad SAW); and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous”. (3:114)

“YUSUFALI: And We gave him Good in this world, and he will be, in the Hereafter, in the ranks of the Righteous.” (16:122)

do u have doubt in Allah’s word Ibrahim?

54

[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:

[quote]
the divisions can be solve easily if u unite iwht us hten we wil have no devison will we?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; salaams to all,

Iqra my dear, you want me to unite with those who enjoin (taqiyah = deception and lying), mutah (prostitution and zina) , matam (promoting hate) , infallibility of man ( shirk) and misappropriation of zakat by imams just to name some of the practices that you are asking me to except as being part of Islam. NO Muslim in his correct senses can or would except such beliefs as being Islamic.

Such actions are forbidden in Islam and run contrary to what the Prophet of Islam (pbuh) taught and practiced.

I wrote earlier there is a reason and purpose( some good) for the presence of the shia as well as other deviated faiths which you may not be able to understand due to lack of knowledge. On the other hand, going for a quick-fix and mixing falsehood with truth is forbidden by Allah (swt)

anyway let me show you how Islam is to be understood

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 9.388 Narrated by Abu Huraira

When Allah's Apostle died and Abu Bakr was elected as a Caliph after him, ** some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief.** 'Umar said to Abu Bakr, "How dare you fight the people while Allah's Apostle said, I have been ordered to fight the people till they say 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And whoever says: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah' saves his wealth and his life from me unless he deserves a legal punishment justly, and his account will be with Allah! ** Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, I will fight him who discriminates between Zakat and prayers, for Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the wealth. ** By Allah, if they refuse to give me even a tying rope which they used to give to Allah's Apostle, ** I would fight them for withholding it." ** 'Umar said, "By Allah, it was nothing, except I saw that Allah had opened the chest of Abu Bakr to the fight, and ** I came to know for certain that was the truth." **

Ibrahim says: Hence so far as you say You belief in Allah (swt) you are dear to me and I love you for that, but when/if you say , zakat is to be given to your imams (or any other deviations as mentioned above) , I am enjoined to fight you, in order to establish the truth as established by the Prophet (pbuh) and his most trusted companions.

[quote]
I haven’t called myself a shia.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; My dear, that is the beauty and falsehood in shi’ism, they will not like to call themselves shia because deep down they know it is erroneous to call themselves as such, but carry on bragging about their ways , which are well known to originate from shi’ism. Are you now going to deny you do not practice shi’ism?

[quote]
U r the one who is levelling anyone who doesn’t agree with ur statements. U r creating divison. Wot do u call urself? A true muslim with wahhabi beliefs?

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Am I telling lies by saying what I am saying? Or have I clearly conveyed why the companions are being slandered and accused by the shi’a faith? Be honest, are those accusing the beloved companions of the prophet (pbuh) Muslims or shia’s?

I have not strayed from the topic to create division, which was the merits of the companions and I am not talking about all companions but specific people who are being accused by your brethren and you.

I repeat a Muslim only need to put his faith in Allah (swt) and His messenger and no one else but a shia will insist that his faith is based on Ali (ra) and his lineage of 7 or 12 persons and claim that is ahl bait . (such a doctrine has nothing to do with Islam.

It is sad to note, even though Brother Fact finder had given you the correct definitions of Ahl bait and the Qur’an confirms who are the ahl bait, the shia will insist it is such and such ! How can such people who go against the Qur’an to establish their own norms be practicing Islam?

BTW can you tell us what is wahabbi beliefs in a separate thread or something. But remember, when you slander people you alone have made yourself guilty, so do be careful as to what you say.

[quote]
nor did Prophet (pbuh) mentioned abt sunni, wahhabi, hanafi, maliki etc
[/quote]
.

Ibrahim says; Yes! You have spoken the truth! Islam is not called by another name either and I do not and have not ever classified myself other than a Muslim practicing Islam.

Now here is where you need to find out why people follow madhabs and why all these madhabs are not considered deviations in Islam but shi’ism is considered deviating form Islam. I had already given you some distinct reasons above, verify them for yourself.

[quote]
so all of thse sect/madhab is a diff religion other than Islam in according to ur logic?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: That would be your own misconception, since I am sure you are aware there are numerous ulema’s from the madhabs and they do not challenge each other as to which of them is better nor make distinctions amongst the companions

A Muslim is one who beliefs in Allah (swt) and knows for sure that none who have wronged themselves will escape from the fire and It is up to Allah (swt) to forgive whom He wills and punish whom He wills.

Simply Muslims refrain from making judgments about unknown matters but a shia will insist that they know better

By carrying on slandering some of the companions or the People the Prophet (pbuh) loved, the shia’s have made themselves distinct and gone astray.

[quote]
I can assure u that shia ulema believes that this religion called Islam is not based on any man or his works, the only representative for Islam today is the Qur’an and the Path ( sunnah) that the appointed Prophet of Islam practiced and preached.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Good! But they believe their ahl bait ( which discounts some of the true ahl bait) are infallible, can you tell us where and when the Prophet (pbuh) or Allah (swt) conveyed such a doctrine?

[quote]
Sunni ulema have no problem of accepting shia madhab as fifth madhab (a fatwa already been given by AL azhar university in Egypt the leading sunni institute in the world), only the wahhabis has the problem with islamic unity.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: In this current times where money and influence can buy anything, Yes, I have heard about this fatwa, BUT as a Muslim, how can I enjoin taqiyah, mutah, matam, infallibility etc in Islam?

Unity is not achieved by following the masses blindly but by understanding common grounds and dispelling errors .

If unity meant lets get united, then we should make no exception in taking the Christians, jews, hindus as varying madhabs also

[quote]
I shall quote ur original post where u tried to use one to explain other. U mischievously tried to use the verse where Allah told us not to make distinction between Prophets of Allah as not to make distinction between Companion. How pathetic r u?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; And I wrote at length to use your common sense, oh well!

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.47 Narrated by Ibn Umar

During the lifetime of the Prophet ** we considered ** Abu Bakr as peerless and then 'Umar and then 'Uthman (coming next to him in superiority) and then ** we used not to differentiate between the companions of the Prophet.**

Ibrahim says; It takes the Grace of Allah (swt) and a great amount of contemplation to understand revealed texts, not all can understand nor cross reference verses, so I have to excuse you for failing to understand even after the explanations.

[quote]
I don’t doubt Allah’s word. Allah said Allah will reward those who suffered for HIS cause, and Allah knows the intention of those who did suffer for His cause or for their own cause. Ibrahim do u consider urself of sharing the power of knowing wot is one’s hearth with Allah?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what is this, reversing the question I put to you? Maybe that is the only way you can consol yourself. But when you are in peace of mind, do consider what I wrote.

Let me repeat!

( do you have some secret revelations as to which companion did not fight in Allah’s cause) will be forgiven as per His will and decree, are YOU or your SHIA brethren now going to decide which of the companions or Muslims will not be forgiven by Allah (swt) for whatever you perceive they may have done?

Ibrahim says; Answer me or at least answer to yourself, if you have any honesty in you.

After words

Find out who said this and why the Prophet (pbuh) spared even those found guilty of wrongdoing?

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.319 Narrated by Ali

Allah's Apostle sent me, Abu Marthad and Az-Zubair, and all of us were riding horses, and said, "Go till you reach Raudat-Khakh ** where there is a pagan woman carrying a letter from Hatib bin Abi Balta' a to the pagans of Mecca." ** So we found her riding her camel at the place which Allah's Apostle had mentioned. We said (to her),"(Give us) the letter." She said, "I have no letter." Then we made her camel kneel down and we searched her, but we found no letter. Then we said, ** "Allah's Apostle had not told us a lie, certainly. Take out the letter, otherwise we will strip you naked." ** When she saw that we were determined, she put her hand below her waist belt, for she had tied her cloak round her waist, and she took out the letter, and we brought her to Allah's Apostle. Then ** 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! (This Hatib) has betrayed Allah, His Apostle and the believers! Let me cut off his neck!"** The Prophet asked Hatib, "What made you do this?" Hatib said, "By Allah, I did not intend to give up my belief in Allah and His Apostle but I wanted to have some influence among the (Mecca) people so that through it, Allah might protect my family and property. There is none of your companions but has some of his relatives there through whom Allah protects his family and property." ** The Prophet said, "He has spoken the truth; do not say to him but good." ** 'Umar said, "He has betrayed Allah, His Apostle and the faithful believers. Let me cut off his neck!" ** The Prophet said, "Is he not one of the Badr warriors? Maybe Allah looked at the Badr warriors and said, 'Do whatever you like, as I have granted Paradise to you,' or said, 'I have forgiven you.' " On this, tears came out of Umar's eyes, and he said, "Allah and His Apostle know better." **

[quote]
from the history we can see how sincere one was in their intention
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; you are awfully naïve in talking about history, which is full of holes. Sincerity of anyone is not recorded in history it is known only be Allah (swt)

[quote]
and as there r haddith ul quri via which our prophet (pbuh) warned us abt some of companions who will go astray after the Prophet(pbuh) left the duina, so we r careful on to see whom we should follow.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; are you saying there are Muslims following the teachings of the companions or have you misconceived the fact that Muslims follow the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) and not the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) ?

Here itself it is clearly evident that you are going into politics and not practicing Islam .

Did you not read I quoted the hadiths where the Prophet (pbuh) knew how many of his companions will not enter paradise? Did you not read the hadiths quoted by you and a1shah, that some companions will be taken away from his presence for their wrong doing.

BTW why are you following the companion? You wrote: so we r careful on to see whom ** we should follow.**

[quote]
We r told by Prophet that Ali is with the Quran and Ali is with the believers. So if any companion oppose Ali we know whom should we follow.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Are you saying that all other companions were singled out by the Prophet (pbuh) as not being with the Qur’an ? or is Islam based on who is on friendly terms with Ali (ra) ?

Answer me if you are indeed speaking the truth?

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 7.153 Narrated by Jabir

The Prophet said, "I entered Paradise and saw a palace and asked whose palace is this? They ** (the Angels) said, "This palace belongs to 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." ** I intended to enter it, and nothing stopped me except my knowledge about your sense of Ghira (self-respect (O Umar)." 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! Let my father and mother be sacrificed for you! O Allah's Prophet! How dare I think of my Ghira (self-respect) being offended by you?"

Can you now deny this companion? Or will you say the Prophet (pbuh) made a false assertion?

Do you not obey Allah (swt) by veiling yourself?

Did you know as to why that revelation took place?

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 8.257 Narrated by Aisha

(the wife of the Prophet) ** 'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to say to Allah's Apostle "Let your wives be veiled." But he did not do so.** The wives of the Prophet used to go out to answer the call of nature at night only at Al-Manasi.' Once Sauda, the daughter of Zam'a went out and she was a tall woman. 'Umar bin Al-Khattab saw her while he was in a gathering, and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda!" He ('Umar) said so as he was anxious for some Divine orders regarding the veil (the veiling of women.) ** So Allah revealed the Verse of veiling. ** (Al-Hijab; a complete body cover excluding the eyes). (See Hadith No. 148, Vol. 1)

Ibrahim says; maybe you are ignorant of this, Iqra 786?

Read!

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.38 Narrated by Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, ** "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar." **
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Among the nation of Bani Israel who lived before you, there were men who used to be inspired with guidance though they were not prophets, and if there is any of such persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar."

[quote]
While u ibrahim trying to rank all in one level in Quran,
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Huh? What stupidity, just above ( earlier) I went to lengths to say we are NOT allowed to make distinctions by quoting the verses in the Qur’an which reveals the behaviors of prophets, nor judge others blindly and you say I rank all in one level?

Indeed you are entitled to your own misconception but they are your errors not mine.

[quote]
we r reminded in many places of the various ranks and degrees of people that exist due to their actions, piety and knowledge. For example, (6:132) And also in 58:11 (3:114) (16:122) do u have doubt in Allah’s word Ibrahim?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Do you truly understand what you read? Yes! The rank and degree of people are attained by their own works just as you will only get what you achieved by your own actions, that does not give anyone other than Allah (swt) the right to decide your fate in the hereafter.

So long as you are alive and you are on this forum, I can discuss, argue, dispute about your errors and misconceptions but the moment you are not present , talking about you in this forum amounts to backbiting, that is Islam. Get it? It is simple to understand.

The shia’s on the other hand make assertions and accusations about a people who are not present amongst us , hence they are not practicing Islam but politicking , maligning and slandering specific companions of the Prophet (pbuh) whom the Prophet (pbuh) and Allah (swt) had chosen as Muslims to accompany and assist the chosen prophet of Islam (pbuh)

The very idea that you have decided who amongst the companions are to be trusted and whom are not , in order to be a Muslim , tell us how little you understand Islam.

** I repeat Islam is not based upon any companion or his actions! **

Was salaam
Ibrahim

55

Your level of ignorance is unmatched.

Your understanding of the quranic ayats is poor. You have no faith in your own sahih books which you claim to be are authentic.

You, like a blind man, pick and choose hadiths to satisfy yr own whims.

Your technique is simple. Put as much writing on the wall that an ordinary reader gets confused.

The topic was about companions. Specifically, it was about certain hadiths.

Yet, both your and FF's defence has been accusations and conjecture against shias.

It burns you that sahih hadiths are present that clearly show the misbehavior of certain sahabahs in the presence of the prophet (pbuh).

You, by yr own admission have rejected hadiths from Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, and others, through means of footnotes and slanted interpretations to protect yr shallow beliefs.

Even after numerous posts to show who the ahl-bait were, what verse 33:33 means, and how the prophet (pbuh) warned that some of his sahabahs will be sent to hell, you have chosen to ignore those hadiths, skip the threads, or hope that the thread gets deleted.

In this topic alone, you have brought about Taquiah, Mutah, matam, knowing fully well that your arguments are weak and irrelevant.

Allah (swt) had instructed our holy prophet (pbuh) that it is not necessary to waste time with the arrogant in the following verse:

[Shakir 80:5] As for him who considers himself free from need (of you),
[Shakir 80:6] To him do you address yourself.
[Shakir 80:7] And no blame is on you if he would not purify himself

As such, I will not waste my time with the likes of you who have no knowledge of the qur'an nor hadith.

Seems like there is no one else on the board intelligent to discuss the issues.

You two are a joke onto yrselves.

May Allah (swt) bless our holy prophet (pbuh) and his family (as).

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited December 26, 2001).]