Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
Aurangzeb? You seem to be lost that is different thread where no one could dispute what I presented.
Now, search British army target practice on statues in Afghanistan. Post what results you get. 
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
errr…British army did practice shooting and knocked off a statue’s head but it wasn’t Afghanistan nor was it Budha’s statue.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdltbFELGMs
B](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdltbFELGMs)esides, they weren’t praised for what they did, they were condemned.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
http://www.islam.at/index2.php
It would be interesting to imagine the handling of the issue by the same media machine had it existed in the 19th century when British army used these statues for target practice during its unsuccessful incursions into Afghanistan. The British army, to our dismay, did not have powerful enough weapons to finish the job. History does not record any laments for the British attempts that did cause the most damage to these statues before the Taliban completely obliterated them. (It is interesting how many people have argued that these statues had survived centuries of Islamic rule with little damage. Do they suppose what could not be done in the 19th century could have been done earlier?)
http://blog.sojo.net/2011/07/28/buddhas-brought-back-to-life-in-central-afghanistan/
Second, these statues were used by the British for artillery target practice, which blew away the facial features and large portions of the lower surfaces. By the time the British were driven out of Afghanistan, the statues were unrecognizable as statues of the Buddha, they were vaguely humanoid shapes covered with pockmarks.
There is also a book : “Idiot’s guide to Islam” which says the same what I posted.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
What did Ibrahim AS do?
What did the Prophet Muhammad SAW do to idols?
The problem is that people start licking and kissing anything which was once touched by sahaba or the prophet SAW.
Utter stupidity is shown by people as of today who despite following the teachings and be good human being,....... think if they have gone to Hajj or touched/kissed these items, they are blessed and pious. ** Only few places are sacred all others are not.**
And to have historic value is to negate the philosophy of Islam that everything material is 'faani'.
If there was no need to have a Kaaba to go around then you and I know, even Kaaba was once gone and was rebuilt. ** There the importance is on Tawaaf as religious ritual, not on Kaaba as a building!**
But the Ka'bah is rebuilt isn't it? There is nothing in the Ka'bah it is not worshipped, but it is still washed, clothed with expensive material, and rebuilt.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
psyah,
Peace.
So, if kufaar are comparing the hotels to SIN city, we will compare these mud houses to muqaam e ibrahim? Insanity. Are these also mentioned in the quran and hadith like those that a muslim should visit during hajj?
Why don't we try to learn from those WHO LIVED IN those houses and not care so much about the dust in those homes - their lives are well documented and some of us have seen their houses too, yes its mud and dust, lets move on. Maybe we would be in different condition if we cared about things which really matter. Here we are with so much chaos, problems and calamities on muslims and we have some worried about 1500 year old mud houses.
Many of the hotels and business around the Ka'bah belong to the kuffar if not directly then through franchise or they share a stake. I was not even talking about the article. If you wanna know about my perspective it is to do with End Time and how Muslims will compete by building lofty structures. Makkah is a symbol of materialism now. It is showing the world that people who have real estate there are capitalists.
My reason for comparing the places of antiquity to the muqaam-e-ibrahim is because that too is just that ... it is not required for the Hajj or Umrah ... it is a piece of antiquity. Like it or not that is what it is.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
But the Ka'bah is rebuilt isn't it? There is nothing in the Ka'bah it is not worshipped, but it is still washed, clothed with expensive material, and rebuilt.
Yes, like I mentioned, there was a 'need' to have Kaaba to do Tawaaf around. Hence it was built again.
A ritual to complete the farz of Hajj, Kaaba is needed.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
Yes, like I mentioned, there was a 'need' to have Kaaba to do Tawaaf around. Hence it was built again.
A ritual to complete the farz of Hajj, Kaaba is needed.
The Ka'bah is not needed for the Tawaaf a dotted line on the ground is enough ... and then there is the washing of it and clothing it that you remain silent about.
Respect for structures of antiquity is not shirk ... this concept needs to exit from the minds of people ... an act is determined by the deed and the intent. We cannot judge a whole group of people by what they do without asking them their intent.
Shirk was a danger in the past when ignorance was high and people used to place direct power in items made by the hand - today subtle forms of shirk remain - these cannot be judged by the onlooker - these have to be cleansed from the inside out. Such as ri'ya for example.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
The Ka'bah is not needed for the Tawaaf a dotted line on the ground is enough ... and then there is the washing of it and clothing it that you remain silent about.
Respect for structures of antiquity is not shirk ... this concept needs to exit from the minds of people ... an act is determined by the deed and the intent. We cannot judge a whole group of people by what they do without asking them their intent.
Shirk was a danger in the past when ignorance was high and people used to place direct power in items made by the hand - today subtle forms of shirk remain - these cannot be judged by the onlooker - these have to be cleansed from the inside out. Such as ri'ya for example.
The Farz is Hajj e Baitullah not Hajj e 'Dotted line' though.
Regarding washing or clothing of it..maybe it is to protect and clean the 'itar' and sweat of hands which touch it on daily basis.
Don't know when this ritual was started. Need to check.
There is not always a logic to what Saudis do, but we do know in the name of respect people go crazy. As it is people act silly when they get close to Kaaba or Masjid e Nabvi/or the final place of rest of the prophet/sahaba.
There is a lot to do in order to preserve these other buildings and really, this is not 7th century where few people go and perform Hajj.
It is OK to accept the modern construction too.
Regarding the kuffar owning the chain stores/hotels, that is another topic.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
this makes me sad and upset at the same time.
what they should do is make hotels for the poor, and make them free, so they dont end up sleeping on the streets/area around the Haram.
No pilgrim is allowed to come for hajj who does not have acccomodation. The pilgrims on the street are illegals. The Saudis only issue hajj visas and permits to people who are part of a private or government-sponsored group, for which accomodation must be arranged.
Those poor pilgrims on the street are not supposed to be there anyway.
Our hajj guides explained that they tend to either come for umrah a month or two and illegally overstay their visas in Makkah until hajj, or they sneak in to Makkah over the mountains (they can't take the roads, because the Saudis check road traffic to ensure only authorized pilgrims are coming.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
Its understandable that the place has so many pilgrims & tourists that it HAS to be expanded & developed but at the cost of the original historical places - NO! There are other ways of doing it too.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
The Farz is Hajj e Baitullah not Hajj e 'Dotted line' though.
Regarding washing or clothing of it..maybe it is to protect and clean the 'itar' and sweat of hands which touch it on daily basis.
Don't know when this ritual was started. Need to check.
There is not always a logic to what Saudis do, but we do know in the name of respect people go crazy. As it is people act silly when they get close to Kaaba or Masjid e Nabvi/or the final place of rest of the prophet/sahaba.
There is a lot to do in order to preserve these other buildings and really, this is not 7th century where few people go and perform Hajj.
It is OK to accept the modern construction too.
Regarding the kuffar owning the chain stores/hotels, that is another topic.
Peace diwana
I'm a reasonable man ... you can be too ... Please admit that for Hajj the building of the Ka'bah is not needed as part of the ritual ... it is there for another important reason ... tradition. It was a Sunnah to replenish the Ka'bah same goes with the Muqam-e-Ibrahim ... Your use of Urdu definitions of the Hajj is not here or there.
The fact that the Saudis wash the Ka'bah and clothe it some twisted person can come along and say they are doing shirk ... not so! that is not their intent ... in the same way when people have landmarks of antiquity these should be kept (as much as they can in a reasonable way) - they have got a dotted line to mark the boundaries of well of ZamZam located in the mataf area, at least they can do the same with certain houses. They could have avoided building toilets in certain locations out of being sensitive for others and out of respect rather than just doing certain things without that consideration. Like someone said earlier they can put certain things in the museum. I'm actually quite sure that many of the items of antiquity such as the prayer mat of the prophet and his (SAW) stick are in close keeping of the some of the royals of Saudi. They were on display for years until the 80s I believe until the building was knocked down.
They use the excuse of shirk but in reality the reason for leveling the ground is to make way for either amenities for Hajjis which is bearable to an extent but also to make way for their plans to build real estate. It really does not have anything to do with their unhealthy fear that people are performing shirk. There are extreme examples in the Ummah where this is indeed relevant, but those people are splinter factions. For the vast majority of people who do not do shirk but still see such places as important ... well decisions should be based on their mindset .... not using the minority ignorant as a basis for their decisions - or so they say.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
You have copy pasted from a forum and a blog…where did they get their reference from? Even the book, what does it refer to for the proof?
I can’t imagine people “target practising” in 19th century.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
The general philosophy of Sauds is that no one should visit the places of historical importance, thats why there is hardly any tourism outside Makkah and Medina, though the country has countless sites of Islamic history. Irony is that they have made a museum in Riyadh show casing old things and palaces of Al-Saud.
However, as for expansion of mosque is concerned, i think people trying to say that make a good transport system and expand outside etc are really out of touch with reality. Now Safa and Marwa are not there except for few stones, while we would have loved to see the two, like they used to be, the expansion had to be done. Makkah is all rocks and which need to be cut to expand. Secondly, these days there are lot of people all around the year, making construction difficult.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
Peace diwana
I'm a reasonable man ... you can be too ... Please admit that for Hajj the building of the Ka'bah is not needed as part of the ritual ... it is there for another important reason ... tradition. It was a Sunnah to replenish the Ka'bah same goes with the Muqam-e-Ibrahim ... Your use of Urdu definitions of the Hajj is not here or there.
The fact that the Saudis wash the Ka'bah and clothe it some twisted person can come along and say they are doing shirk ... not so! that is not their intent ... in the same way when people have landmarks of antiquity these should be kept (as much as they can in a reasonable way) - they have got a dotted line to mark the boundaries of well of ZamZam located in the mataf area, at least they can do the same with certain houses. They could have avoided building toilets in certain locations out of being sensitive for others and out of respect rather than just doing certain things without that consideration. Like someone said earlier they can put certain things in the museum. I'm actually quite sure that many of the items of antiquity such as the prayer mat of the prophet and his (SAW) stick are in close keeping of the some of the royals of Saudi. They were on display for years until the 80s I believe until the building was knocked down.
They use the excuse of shirk but in reality the reason for leveling the ground is to make way for either amenities for Hajjis which is bearable to an extent but also to make way for their plans to build real estate. It really does not have anything to do with their unhealthy fear that people are performing shirk. There are extreme examples in the Ummah where this is indeed relevant, but those people are splinter factions. For the vast majority of people who do not do shirk but still see such places as important ... well decisions should be based on their mindset .... not using the minority ignorant as a basis for their decisions - or so they say.
Bhai Psyah Peace:
Your points are very valid. From the perspective of someone who sees every other nation trying to preserve the natural habitat or ancient buildings, it does appear senseless to destroy some houses.
Kaaba is the center and has very different meaning as the 'house of lord' than any other houses on outskirt of Kaaba. Reasonable enough argument?
There is no way anyone can for sure say what the reasoning of not having those items you mentioned.
The problem is that only Pakistani/Indian muslims awam care so much as far as we know about these buildings.
No Govt. of any Muslim country talks to Saudis and discuss the importance or even if they do Saudis may not be listening to them.
The shirk issue remains valid though. There are more than few who go crazy when they come close to anything related to religious figures.
There are fake foot prints of the prophet SAW going around in families for generation and in the name of 'Ziarat' people focus on footprint and consider that they will go to jannat by seeing that.
You have copy pasted from a forum and a blog.....where did they get their reference from? Even the book, what does it refer to for the proof?
I can't imagine people "target practising" in 19th century.
Perhaps that book by Yahiya Emerick may have reference.
On internet limited search brought these few links.
The point here is that there are more than one sources which tell the same thing.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
diwana kay aagay been bajane se koi faida nahi... abay oye, those "proof" you copy-pasted aren't anywhere in the articles your link points to, it is in the comments section where some other bhains has pasted his personal opinion. in none of the three anglo-afghan wars did the brits get north of the hindu-kush range. bamiyan is where the afghan rulers from kabul went into hiding and safety. silly neo-cons reinventing history...
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
An idiot is the one who does not even bring a single source to back up but keeps ranting. 
I mentioned about a book too. Go talk the writer/publisher, not me! 
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
yeah a book by this guy. good going pal..
as for source, if you hadn’t slept through your high-school history class, you’d have learnt what transpired in the anglo-afghan wars, most of which was fought using soldiers and land of your country, the Durand line, etc. -_- chalay aatay hai source walay neo-cons..
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
Thanks for providing one useless link besides the same rant. Now go do some home work. Provide the rebuttal to the author. Send a copy to me.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam’s holiest site ‘turning into Vegas’
Nonsense. You are lying.. and wikipedia is not a source. ANY sensational kid like you can edit that crap. It is not a reliable source of reliable and authentic information. Search the web, damn it.
http://dir.salon.com/story/people/feature/2001/03/22/taliban/
“I know it is not rational and logical to blow the statues for retaliation of economic sanctions,” he said. “But this is how it is.”
“The council of people had told [the foreign agency restoring the statues] to spend that money in saving the lives of these children instead,” Hashemi said, explaining that 300 children have died since economic sanctions were imposed in January. “And these guys said no … The people were really pissed off. They said, ‘If you don’t care about our children, we are going to blow those statues.’”
I will see how you feel when your kid dies of hunger.
Returning to the topic: You failed to provide any source or PROOF that these mud houses have any religious significance in ISLAM. The Prophet (pbuH) never said to keep these houses even if you have to deal with mosque’s expansion.
BESIDES, you guys don’t even agree about DATES the prophet(pbuh) was born and died but you KNOW FOR SURE that these mud houses belong to whoever you claim they did? Is it in the hadith, which book says these houses were property of so and so? Stop sensationalizing every small issue just because it involves “the wahabis” and you have difference of opinion with Saudis or people there.
wo jo kar rahe hain sahi hee ho raha ho ga, agar houses ki koe value hoti tou preserve ho jate Allah ke hukam se. Hainaaaa? Tum kabron ko takkrain maar ke apna kaam karo aur Kabba ki take care karne walon ko apna kaam karne do jo un ko sounpa gya hai Allah ki taraf se.
Re: Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
^Umm please let's keep this conversation civil and not start hurling personal remarks.