McCain made a major foreign policy speech, in which he said
This Armageddon-like scenarios constantly presented by Bush and his cohorts in trying to deflect the criticism on going to and handling of this war, makes for one very apt question (it was raised in a recent Bill Maher show). How come the same people who were wrong on every prediction they made BEFORE the way (we will be greeted with flowers, war will be over in 6 weeks etc etc), are now the same people we should trust for all their dire predictions AFTER withdrawl?
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
Actaully he is right! There is power vaccum in Iraq. Kurds in North are already running their state within a state kind of thing. Shias are controlling the southern side of the country, where are Sunnis are in the center.
Americans have successfully divided Iraqi people into ethnic groups who has nothing in common. These hatedness of these groups are at an extent where they coperate with US Army to provide info and Strategic Support to invade their rivals.
This is the knid of situation which will provide Americans reason to stay for another 100 years ( like Mccain said). America has no interest what so ever to have peace in the region.
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
^ I know all that, though I differ in one thing. Americans did not divide Iraqi people in ethnic groups. They were divided in different ethnic/sectarian groups much before American invasion, and were held as one country simply because of a brutal dictatorship.
No power in this world can solve their ethnic/sectarian issues. These have been simmering for decades and centuries. Even America is not so powerful. Iraqis themselves have to figure out how they want to co-exist (or not) with each other.
So now the question is, does America have the backbone to keep taking the human and financial cost of a deeply unpopular war. With this war already costing hundreds of billions already (and estimated to be around 3 trillion by the end), US really does not have the financial wherewithal to carry on merrily. And the four thousandth casuality last week was a stark reminder of the terrible human cost. All this to prevent a failed middle eastern country from a potential civil war? Who are we kidding here??
If the question is that Al-Qaida will have a safe haven in Iraq, then you have to remember, Al-Qaida already has safe havens in Afghanistan and Pakistan (like it or not), and these are close US allies right now. Go figure!
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
And through removing the only safety stopvalve preventing hatred between the ethnic and religious groups being unleashed, the USA released a plague onto Iraq.
It says a lot that a secular Shia political dissident, sentenced to death by Saddam and who spent 8 years on death row and who’s release, freedom, and continued life was directly caused by the American invasion, is today saying, admittedly with shame, that he wishes Saddam still ruled Iraq because it was better for the people.
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
so there shud be a brutal dictator in every country where there is a potential for civil war …thats hardly a logical conclusion
and how was saddam better for people? just because the americans and their allies have lost control of the situation that means that the country revert back to dictatorship? if not by carbombs people were being killed by saddam in secret prisons
furthermore its not a shia-sunni thing saddam was a pagan thug and so are many of the “secular” shias
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
No republican will admit openly to withdraw from Iraq. No democrat is electable.
Even though majority of Americans want to leave Iraq asap, unless an independent (such as Gore) gets into the fray, election of McCain is certain (barring scandals and mishaps) - he will be elected because the democratic candidates are not viable; but that will be interpreted as an endorsement of Bush's Iraq policy.
The only hope I see is 3rd parties (EU/UN) engaging McCain
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
^ iraq is a quagmire , with any withdrawal the stability of the other puppet states will be threatned and Iran and syria will increase their influence ....from US standpoint McCain is right
only other and better option] is to station a multinational arab force that will replace the american
but that wud mean putting shia arabs or iranians?] in shia areas and sunnis in sunni areas not a very practical option
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
so there shud be a brutal dictator in every country where there is a potential for civil war ...thats hardly a logical conclusion
and how was saddam better for people?
So what form of government should be applied in a land where democracy fails to work, and where the iron fist had successfully maintained order for years?
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
I completely reject the viewpoint that brutal dictatorship is the only solution or should be imposed, when different groups of people hate each other, and are forced to live together in one country.
The most natural way to solve this problem is to allow the people to make their choice. This should not be such a radical concept in the 21st century. If it means that Kurds will form their own country in the North, while Shias will be independent in the South, so be it. Sunnis in the middle, will not be the first land-locked oil-less country in the world, and Turks will get over their hang ups against Kurds. And shias in Iraq (who are Arabs) are not likely to merge with shias of Iran (who are Persians), though certainly they will likely have very close relationship.
So the whole point is that, once US gets over its goal of regional hegemony, and its desire to control the taps of oil in the middle east, there are other more peaceful solutions available. The choice should not simply be between Sadaam's dictatorship or US occupation.
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
So what form of government should be applied in a land where democracy fails to work, and where the iron fist had successfully maintained order for years?
so a destructive 8 yr war with its neighbor , a unsuccessful annexation of neighboring state , brutal persecution of hundreds of thousands is your defination of successful order ? mashallah
I am not defending occupation of iraq here but it doesnt mean we try to justify everyhting that saddam did under the excuse of mainting order
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
I completely reject the viewpoint that brutal dictatorship is the only solution or should be imposed, when different groups of people hate each other, and are forced to live together in one country.
The most natural way to solve this problem is to allow the people to make their choice. This should not be such a radical concept in the 21st century. If it means that Kurds will form their own country in the North, while Shias will be independent in the South, so be it. Sunnis in the middle, will not be the first land-locked oil-less country in the world, and Turks will get over their hang ups against Kurds. And shias in Iraq (who are Arabs) are not likely to merge with shias of Iran (who are Persians), though certainly they will likely have very close relationship.
So the whole point is that, once US gets over its goal of regional hegemony, and its desire to control the taps of oil in the middle east, there are other more peaceful solutions available. The choice should not simply be between Sadaam's dictatorship or US occupation.
I agree ...esp since iraq was formed as a seperate country by the british , why are muslims so upset if now we break it up into 3 regions
its not like the unity of ummah is at stake....iraqi unity is being preserved more to preserve american interests as a stronger iran will emerge free from any iraqi threat and it will also encourage the religious sunnis in KSA,jordan,syria and Egypt to overthrow their respective govts
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
it will also encourage the religious sunnis in KSA,jordan,syria and Egypt to overthrow their respective govts
While I agree it will create some regional instability in the short-term (resulting in higher gas prices we pay at the pump), but I am not entirely convinced that this will be such a bad thing in the long-term. Many of these are real or pseudo-dictatorships, and I don't think many of us will lose our sleep if the kings and princes are disposed to be replaced by government by the people of these countries. Add Kuwait, Doha, Bahrain and UAE in the mix too. Buncha hereditary kings/thugs all over the frikkin' place.
Re: McCain on Iraq - Withdrawl will lead to civil war
so a destructive 8 yr war with its neighbor , a unsuccessful annexation of neighboring state , brutal persecution of hundreds of thousands is your defination of successful order ? mashallah
I am not defending occupation of iraq here but it doesnt mean we try to justify everyhting that saddam did under the excuse of mainting order
I'm not saying that everything he did was justified. I'm solely pointing out that he did a better job of keeping order in the country than years of democracy have managed.
Even in the midst of an 8 year war against a larger neighbouring country... Saddam did not lose control of cities to mere militia.
Saddam was able to defeat insurgency through being willing to persecute hundreds of thousands. The funny thing about large insurgencies, particularly in urban areas, is that they can only be defeated by doing terrible things to the population base that supports them. The very nature of democracy renders it incapable of being able to carry out the horrific things that are needed to smash an insurgency.