Massacre at Qana

[USResident]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@Ohioguy

Bull Sh*t.

There have been hundreds of casualties over the years. If people were bombarding me repeatedly I would be pissed and I would want some butt. So would you. For years the Israelis have been dinking around with border harrassment. Did you not read what I posted from a report in 2002?

Changes in Hizballah’s Tactics
Hizballah’s behavior since Israel’s May 2000 withdrawal from southern Lebanon leaves little doubt that the organization, which enjoys Syrian and Iranian sponsorship, is committed to a continuous armed confrontation with Israel until, in the words of its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, “the liberation of Jerusalem” (see PeaceWatch 365 for analysis of Hizballah activities between the Israeli withdrawal and early 2002). There are several unsettling trends in Hizballah’s recent behavior that deserve special attention:
• Crossborder attacks beyond the Shebaa Farms. Until recently, Hizballah’s fire was directed at the Mount Dov area next to Shebaa Farms—the 750 acres Lebanon claims as its territory, without UN support. In the past two weeks, however, Hizballah has expanded its circle of fire to IDF bases on Mount Hermon and the northern part of the Golan Heights. In addition, Israeli communities in Galilee have come under artillery fire, and at least one incident involved the use of antitank missiles. Such activities show that Hizballah is willing to challenge Israel in other sectors of the border, and that its war against Israel goes beyond the limited objective of Shebaa Farms.
• Involvement in crossborder infiltration. During Israel’s occupation of southern Lebanon, Hizballah refrained from attempts to cross the border and carry out attacks against targets inside Israel.** In the past month, however, there have been several attacks against IDF outposts in Mount Dov, with Hizballah gunmen attempting to infiltrate these positions and perhaps seize them. Hizballah is also suspected of involvement in a March 12 infiltration in which Palestinian terrorists shot at cars near Kibbutz Matzuva, killing six Israelis and wounding seven others. **

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/t…5.php?CID=2067

And further from the same source:

ince March 28, 2002, the first day of Operation Defensive Shield—Israel’s attempt to dismantle the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure—Lebanese Hizballah fighters have attacked northern Israeli settlements and military outposts on an almost daily basis. These unprovoked attacks have included the use of antitank missiles, mortars, katyusha rockets, and antiaircraft weapons directed at Israeli military and civilian aircraft. Among the towns attacked have been Shlomi, Kiryat Shmona, Moshav Beit Hillel, and the Allawite village Ghajar, where Hizballah fire wounded five residents, including three children. In an April 7 Hizballah attack on a military outpost in the western sector (a significant distance from the Shebaa Farms area), seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers—five of them women—were wounded. Despite these provocations, Israel has indicated that it does not wish to open a second front against Hizballah, the Lebanese army, or Syria. Yet, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon recently stated, “We are demonstrating restraint and are not interested in an escalation in the violence, but we cannot hold back for much longer,” indicating that Israel’s patience is about to run out and that harsh military response is imminent.

Hizbullah went to far too long. You just weren’t paying attention.

Sir get your blinders off and stop eating your hay for a while. Where do the articles you posted say that any of the casualties were caused by rocket fire. And like I said for 6000 rockets fired into an area I don’t much of proportioanal casualties. Articles cannot justify dumb-arse logic that you presented Sir.

[Fret_Wizard]

Re: Massacre at Qana

Hopefully Hiz fires some more rockets into the terrorist state so the Israeli civilian death toll becomes even as the Lebanese one. Only then should there be a cease fire, and only then will the terrorist state of Israel think twice about initiating a genocide.

I hope they burn in hell.

*NOTE: refrain from badmouthing please! *

[antiobl]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@Fret Wizard

.... so the Israeli * * civilian death toll becomes even as the Lebanese one. .....

Well Hiz can do whatever they want. Cows haven't come home since 1948. who knows we start hearing the cowbells soon.

[Ohioguy]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@USResident

Sir get your blinders off and stop eating your hay for a while. Where do the articles you posted say that any of the casualties were caused by rocket fire. And like I said for 6000 rockets fired into an area I don't much of proportioanal casualties. Articles cannot justify dumb-arse logic that you presented Sir.

How many casualties would be acceptable in your neighborhood? How many rockets would you consider OK? Blinders? Tell me how many of your friends family and neighbors could be killed before you did what you were able to stop them.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and from Lebanon, and the bombardments did not stop. That is a fact. When you bombard a neighbor with a vastly superior neighbor, you cannot count on restraint forever. At some point they will stop the tit-for-tat encounters and give you amighty slap. That is precisely what is happening now.

Do you think Hizbullah knew that if Israel attacked that lots of innocents would die? If they did, and it is hard to imagine that they did not think about this, why did they persist? The fact is that they were willing to absorb these deaths. That was cold calculation, that they felt may well work to their advantage in world opinion. How cynical. But hell, If Muslims are willing to cynically use these deaths, what does that tell you about these people?

You all know this is true. It is the dirty little secret that you are not allowed to even whisper about.

[Fayz]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@Ohioguy

You all know this is true. It is the dirty little secret that you are not allowed to even whisper about.

Amusing. The death of Lebanese civilians is entirely in Jewish control at the moment. They can choose not play in hizb's hands if they wish.
A mighty slap will not get a peace agreement which they have been 'sincerely' looking for.

[Guy1]

Re: Massacre at Qana

WOW...how beautifully these americans and their "accepted paki servants" r defending israeli open terrorism...israelis r killing innocent people as it is clear to every1...they strike resident areas as much as they can and their western beast fully back them...SHABASH....oh yeah,afterall Ohioguy is an american and americans can kiill 300 people in a marriage ceremoney,thinking tht it was some kind of al qaeda terrorists gathering and then say " a mistake"..come to the west please...means come to the uncivilized world:)

[Guy1]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@Reza Pahlavi

Maybe the disabled Lebanese children were killed by bombs that Israeli kids had signed personally?

tht shows how much clever these israelis r…israelis know tht they r living on illegal state…they r living on the captured houses…they know tht they have to be beast in order to survive…so they r training their young ones so tht in future,they can also be great terrorist heros…
this is also something for muslims countries as they should know only the fittest will survive…antiobl could have learn some but unfortunately..

[Ohioguy]

Re: Massacre at Qana

You guys somehow think that you have the high moral ground? Lets review some fast statistics. Who do you think has killed more women and old people? Not what you think! Here is the summary of a study done on four years casualties of the Intifada. Read it then we will discuss it.

Go here to understand this table:
http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

**Breakdown of Fatalities: 27 September 2000 through 1 January 2005

** Palestinians
3179
Israelis
1010
No. of whom were female
140
No. of whom were female
316
Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
No. of whom were female
1099

103
Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
No. of whom were female
764
306
Combatants killed by Opposite Side
1542
Combatants killed by Opposite Side
215
People killed by actions of own side
406
People killed by actions of own side
22
Non-Combatants below age 12
88
Non-Combatants below age 12
46
Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29
581
Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29
178
Non-Combatants Aged >= 45
89
Non-Combatants Aged >= 45
255

[Guy1]

Re: Massacre at Qana

haha ohioguy...u made me laugh...
wht u say abt those plenty of BABIES who were killed by israelis by snipers???
wht u say abt occupied houses of palestine???wht u say abt the a-hole atitude of israelis???
u r one lost candidate for the pope position;)

[USResident]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@Ohioguy

How many casualties would be acceptable in your neighborhood? How many rockets would you consider OK? Blinders? Tell me how many of your friends family and neighbors could be killed before you did what you were able to stop them.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and from Lebanon, and the bombardments did not stop. That is a fact. When you bombard a neighbor with a vastly superior neighbor, you cannot count on restraint forever. At some point they will stop the tit-for-tat encounters and give you amighty slap. That is precisely what is happening now.

Do you think Hizbullah knew that if Israel attacked that lots of innocents would die? If they did, and it is hard to imagine that they did not think about this, why did they persist? The fact is that they were willing to absorb these deaths. That was cold calculation, that they felt may well work to their advantage in world opinion. How cynical. But hell, If Muslims are willing to cynically use these deaths, what does that tell you about these people?

You all know this is true. It is the dirty little secret that you are not allowed to even whisper about.

Sir, you have skirted around what I said by giving more and more topics to discuss. If you don't have an answer then be quiet. I asked for concrete evidence about 6000 rockets being fired. Like I said with that many rockets fired how could be casualty rate be so low. You never came back with a reply. Never heard anything in the news about casualties caused from those 6000 rockets. Like I said all concocted BS. Just media fodder to fool people.

Next you throw in a bunch of statistics which have no source and they have to do with the Intifada where as we are dicussing according to your claim that Hizbs have fired over 6000 rockets into Israel without even hitting an ice cream stand and that has been causing the powerful State of Israel to **** their pants. Are you having lapses in your comprehension of what is being asked? Or are you going to pull out another fantastic biblical media news article.

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: Massacre at Qana

Israel has killed 800 civilians in JUST 18 DAYS.

That's a killing record that no combatant in this present conflict (Gaza to Lebanon) holds, except the JEWISH STATE.

WAR CRIMINALS!

[PureLand]

Re: Massacre at Qana

So you want us to believe an Israeli source for these numbers? Also, if Palestinian had the means that Israeli military has, the number of dead Israeli woman/children would have been close to nothing as, unlike coward Zionist militia, Muslim freedom fighters do care and respect woman. Nevertheless, going in to this detail and understanding the raison d’être about why so many Israeli citizens have departed in this conflict would be beyond you. For a better breakdown of numbers, you should perhaps find an alternative source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_2003#Palestanians_Deaths_vs_Israeli_Death.September_28th.2C_2000-_February_15.2C_2006

@Ohioguy

You guys somehow think that you have the high moral ground? Lets review some fast statistics. Who do you think has killed more women and old people? Not what you think! Here is the summary of a study done on four years casualties of the Intifada. Read it then we will discuss it.

Go here to understand this table:
http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

**Breakdown of Fatalities: 27 September 2000 through 1 January 2005

**Palestinians

3179
Israelis
1010
No. of whom were female
140
No. of whom were female
316
Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
No. of whom were female

1099

103
Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
No. of whom were female
764
306
Combatants killed by Opposite Side
1542
Combatants killed by Opposite Side
215
People killed by actions of own side
406
People killed by actions of own side
22
Non-Combatants below age 12
88
Non-Combatants below age 12
46
Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29
581
Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29
178
Non-Combatants Aged >= 45
89
Non-Combatants Aged >= 45
255

[ravage]

Re: Massacre at Qana

It was an unremarkable three-storey building on the edge of town. But for two extended families, the Shalhoubs and the Hashems, it was a last refuge. They could not afford the extortionate taxi fares to Tyre and hoped that if they all crouched together on the ground floor they would be safe.
They were wrong. At about one in the morning, as some of the men were making late night tea, an Israeli bomb smashed into the house. Witnesses describe two explosions a few minutes apart, with survivors desperately moving from one side of the building to the other before being hit by the second blast. By last night, more than 60 bodies had been pulled from the rubble, said Lebanese authorities, 34 of them children. There were eight known survivors.

As yet another body was removed from the wreckage yesterday morning, Naim Raqa, the head of the civil defence team searching the ruins, hung his head in grief: “When they found them, they were all huddled together at the back of the room … Poor things, they thought the walls would protect them.”

Muhammad Qassim Shalhoub, a slim 38-year-old construction worker, emerged with a broken hand and minor injuries, but lost his wife, five children and 45 members of his extended family. “Around one o’clock we heard a big explosion,” he said. “I don’t remember anything after that, but when I opened my eyes I was lying on the floor and my head had hit the wall. There was silence. I didn’t hear anything for a while, but then heard screams.”

“I said: ‘Allahu Akbar [God is most great]. Don’t be scared. I will come.’ There was blood on my face. I wiped it and looked for my son but couldn’t find him. I took three children out - my four-year-old nephew, a girl and her sister. I went outside and screamed for help and three men came and went back inside. There was shelling everywhere. We heard the planes. I was so exhausted I could not go back inside again.”

Ibrahim Shalhoub described how he and his cousin had set out to get help after the bombs hit. “It was dark and there was so much smoke. Nobody could do anything till dawn,” he said, his eyes still darting around nervously. “I couldn’t stop crying, we couldn’t help them.”

Rescue workers were pulling bodies from the rubble all morning. They came across the smallest corpses last, many intact but with lungs crushed by the blast wave of the bombing.

“God is great,” a policeman muttered as the body of a young boy no older than 10 was carried away on a stretcher. The boy lay on his side, as if asleep, but for the fine dust that coated his body and the blood around his nose and ears.

In a nearby ambulance the smallest victims were stacked one on top of the other to make space for the many to come. A boy and girl, both no more than four years old had been placed head to toe. They were still wearing pyjamas.

Family photos - one showing two young children - were scattered in the debris. Mohsen Hachem stared at the images. “They had to have known there were children in that house,” he said. “The drones are always overhead, and those children - there were more than 30 - would play outside all day.”

At the site of the latest tragedy, a man broke down as another small body was brought out, followed quickly by another. The civil defence workers cradled the corpses before placing them delicately on the bright orange stretchers.

“He was the son of Abu Hachem,” said a young man in the crowd outside the house. “They’re Ali and Mohammed - they’re brothers,” a neighbour shouted.

On a hospital bed, a 13-year-old survivor, Nour Hashem, lay fiddling with her bed sheet, her eyes welling with tears. She had been in the house where so many of her family had been killed but had miraculously escaped with only slight injuries.

“We were all sleeping in the same room, my friend, my sister and my cousin,” she said, her voice still shuddering.

“I pulled the rubble off my mother and she took me to another house, then she went looking for my brothers and sisters. But my brothers and sisters didn’t come and my mother didn’t return.”

'They found them huddled together'

[Ohioguy]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@PureLand

So you want us to believe an Israeli source for these numbers? Also, if Palestinian had the means that Israeli military has, the number of dead Israeli woman/children would have been close to nothing as, unlike coward Zionist militia, Muslim freedom fighters do care and respect woman. Nevertheless, going in to this detail and understanding the raison d’être about why so many Israeli citizens have departed in this conflict would be beyond you. For a better breakdown of numbers, you should perhaps find an alternative source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_2003#Palestanians_Deaths_vs_Israeli_Death.September_28th.2C_2000-_February_15.2C_2006

Well fine. Let’s use your Wiki, which is the simplest and stupidest analysis around. But let’s go with it.

Palestinians Killed

Total: 4209
Men:3044
Women:273
Children:892

Israelis Killed

Total:1113
Men:603
Women:305
Children:113

**So right off the bat, there have been more Israeli women killed than men, Right?

**There is a big difference in Children and Men killed. Let’s take children first. Children are almost universally defined as Under 18 years old. So what explains the difference?

Have a look at this graph, it is from a different time frame, but it explains the disparity:

This is from here:
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439

Notice anything?

This study looks at the age breakdowns of the casualties. It shows a huge bulge in the deaths of adolescent kids. Why? We all know why. These kids love to go riot in the streets and screw around with the Israeli soldiers. Many of them are recruited at very young ages to assist even if they are not carrying weapons.

but what you can clearly see is that kids from ages 0-9 have a **very **small death rate, as they are presumably kept safe and near there mothers.

So how about the men? Well, your Wiki is so stupid that *it does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.

*Here is another graph from the same source that attempts to parse out Palestinian combatants from non-combatants. Presumably most combatants are men right?

Get it? Most of the men killed are combatants. This makes sense in two ways. First if Israel were just killing people willy-nilly, the ratio of men killed to women should be about 50/50, by the Wiki statistics, it is 10:1. Second, we all know that Israel has superior military capability, so they should indeed be able to kill more legitimate targets. Arguably the majority of 3000 men could be legitimate fighters.

Lastly, we should all be able to concede that the elderly are generally innocent non-combatants. Here is a final graph that shows that during the period of this study a much larger number of the Israeli dead were older people, and thus probably not combatants.

So, The Palestinians kill more women. The Palestinians kill more old people. The Israelis kill more children, but the children are seldom under the age of nine. Over 75% of the total Palestinians killed are men, and the vast majority of these may well be combatants. Israel kills more children age 12-18, but guess what? When you look at a graph of age groups of non-combatant deaths versus non-combatant deaths, they look remarkably similar.

Lets not play victim until you understand that the Palestinians are just as culpable.

[picoico]

Re: Massacre at Qana

So heavily armed Israeli soldiers have every right to kill rock throwing kids on land the soldiers are occupying...oh what a sweathheart this Ohioguy is...

Of course, it's the Palestinains fault for not locking up their kids in the basement...of having them out in the streets attempting to find some semblance of normalcy. No, obviously all 800 kids were militants...caught in the act...not just kids playing in the streets caught in the cross fire, or even gasp, shock, horror chanting slogans...

Nothing is more revealing of the absolute contempt and cheapness Americans and Israelis have for Palestinians by white wshing the killing of Arab children, and then having the gaul to blame their parents for allowing the kids to be...well, kids...how easy is it to live in a fantasy land where every kid killed is a gun carrying militant?

Spare me the above, please...

[Ohioguy]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@picoico

So heavily armed Israeli soldiers have every right to kill rock throwing kids on land the soldiers are occupying...oh what a sweathheart this Ohioguy is...

Or the Palestinians are using teenagers as fighters(gosh, is that hard to believe), and it is difficult to distinguish who is a gun carrying teen from an innocent teen, so they both get killed at about the same rate.

[mawarid]

Re: Massacre at Qana

^ Still trying to justify the murders committed by Israelis. Remember what you have posted here when you are denouncing the suicide bombers. if you can justify one lot of terrorist than you have no right to condemn the other lot. In fact IDF terrorists are far worse than the suicide bombers. a few days ago you did justify the first lot of massacares carried out at Qana so no one should be surprised by you justifying this one as well.

[Prince_Abbas]

Re: Massacre at Qana

Ohioguy:

[quote]
and it is difficult to distinguish who is a gun carrying teen from an innocent teen
[/quote]

This Nazi is saying it as if his fellow Nazis really care about civilians!
Distinguish between gun-carrying and innocent teen? Nazis should first AT LEAST be able to read "UN" on a BUILDING before making excuses about what color clothes were people wearing.

Surely, nothing ashames Nazis. Not even murder.

[antiobl]

Re: Massacre at Qana

Funny how anti-Semites of today love to use the term Nazi. No wonder they are slaves of Nazi philosophy.

[Ohioguy]

Re: Massacre at Qana

@Prince Abbas

Ohioguy:

This Nazi is saying it as if his fellow Nazis really care about civilians! Distinguish between gun-carrying and innocent teen? Nazis should first AT LEAST be able to read "UN" on a BUILDING before making excuses about what color clothes were people wearing.

Surely, nothing ashames Nazis. Not even murder.

Surely there is a brain in there somewhere.

Simply repeating "Nazi" over and over is really getting to be boring. Perhaps you could discuss the topic of civilian casualties without all the emotional hype. Because the facts really do not fit the Nazi profile at all if you look at them rationally. But then again, the emotional frenzy is in and of itself a weapon isn't it?

Go burn a flag or a KFC somewhere. Make yourself useful.