Marriage Issue

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Marriage Issue

Right THEY are the ones being conned.. Because there is nothing inconsistent or misleading about the "mainstream" ummah. All those people swarming to Syria, the suicide bombers, ISIS, AL QAEDA, are all following Islam in its most pristine.

Honestly, the irony of any religious person pointing fingers at others as being the "conned" ones is laughable.

Do you know that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is actually death, not ex communication.. Perhaps if the Ahmadis would execute members who left the sect, you would find that more acceptable.

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PCG, when the members of the mainstream are enslaving other human beings, throwing homosexuals of tall buildings, and turning children into suicide bombers, your still convinced that its they (the Ahmadis) who do the brainwashing ?

For god sakes. There have beeen COUNTLESS new age "prophets." There have always been and always will be people claiming to be guided by God to create new religion or reform existing ones. When Guru Nanak for example introduced his faith, it wasnt at the behest of the British. Today there are many people in the world claiming to be new age prophets, Jesus etc.

Its not about the British, its about the nature of belief... It changes. People reinterpret things. If its not the Ahmadis, it will be some other group.

How about focusing on the commonalities instead of focusing on the differences. Is Islam nothing more then a faith based on "titles" and credentials? Is there no love compassion or understanding in your faith ?

This really turns me of from Muslims generally. Its no longer about God, its no longer about humanity. Its all about this obssesive need to define others and exclude. Islam has been turned into a country club by you people.

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It absurd that any govt should take it upon themselves to define the identity of Millions of the nations own citizens. I mean to understand how insane that is, simply put yourself in the place of Ahmadis. Imagine the govt tomorrow decided that YOU were no linger a Muslim. Now the govt takes upon itself the role of God in defining your religion. Its mental! Only in this antiquated pseudo "islamic" state as Pakistan could such lunacy be validated.

The notion that the British were so threatened by the Muslims of India that they needed to try to start a whole new religion is laughable. I mean is there any evidence for this? How conceited does one have to be, how much can one inflate their self importance, that such nut job conspiracy theories are now accepted as being fact! If anything it was the Hindus who were a bigger threat. Muslims were lining up to join the British army. If anything, the Muslims were an asset. And it wasn't as if the Muslims were a unified force to begin with, that they would feel the need to create some disunity among them.

Besides, so many other religions have started without British influence, and yet people single out Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as being the one propped up by the British.

This whole thing is intellectually dishonest. They are misled for believing in something they take on faith, but you are accurate and your beliefs wholesome even though everything you believe is also taken on faith ? And yet you see no inherent flaw in your thinking ? Come on now...

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^Thats because British have a history of "divide and conquer". Even now they are openly funding the new cult in UK...The Quilium Foundation.

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As always, if we dig a little deeper we find some nuance to the issue.
Where is the cult asspect of this?
Just a moment…
Quilliam is the world’s first counter-extremism think tank set up to address the unique challenges of citizenship, identity, and belonging in a globalised world. Quilliam stands for religious freedom, equality, human rights and democracy.

Challenging extremism is the duty of all responsible members of society. Not least because cultural insularity and extremism are products of the failures of wider society to foster a shared sense of belonging and to advance liberal democratic values. With Islamist extremism in particular, we believe a more self-critical approach must be adopted by Muslims. Westophobic ideological influences and social insularity needs to be challenged within Muslim communities by Muslims themselves whilst simultaneously, an active drive towards creating an inclusive civic identity must be pursued by all members of society.
Quilliam seeks to challenge what we think, and the way we think. It aims to generate creative, informed and inclusive discussions to counter the ideological underpinnings of terrorism, whilst simultaneously
providing evidence-based recommendations to governments for related policy measures.

In January 2009, The Times published an article claiming that Quilliam had received almost £1 million from the government. The article also said that some “members of the Government and the Opposition” had questioned the wisdom of “relying too heavily on a relatively unknown organisation … to counter extremism.”[SUP][35]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Quilliam openly acknowledges the funding that it receives from the public sector, and has made its financial records publicly available.[SUP][36]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][37]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
Since 2011 Quilliam has not received government (“public”) funding.[SUP][38]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP] In the BBC programme HARDtalk Nawaz explained: "the reason it was cut was because we disagreed at the time with the direction the government was headed. Now that the strategy has changed, and the policy of government has changed, what we haven’t done is revitalize those funding relationships; but rather now we’re 100% privately funded, which I’m happy with because of course it allows me to do the work without having to face the questions about which government is funding you and whether we’re pursuing a government line or not."[SUP][39]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

With the sudden cut in 2011, Quilliam operated at a loss that year; but after cutting half of its staff (including Ed Husain, who left when he secured a job with the Council on Foreign Relations in New York[SUP][10]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP]) and cutting back on its expenses, the Guardian reported, “it was just about able to make it into the red again in the following year”.[SUP][40]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

According to its political liaison officer, Jonathan Russell, the removal of public funding has been to Quilliam’s advantage as "it can remain ideas-focused, non-partisan and continue its own pursuits. Quilliam’s ideas, projects and output are all made possible by the support of private donations from Muslim and non-Muslim individuals and foundations based in the United Kingdom and all around the world."[SUP][38]](Quilliam (think tank) - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

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[SUP]dupe[/SUP]

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What an absolutely interesting (slightly off topic) thread.
Learned something new.

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The UK govt funds Religious NGO's and organizations such as "Islamic Relief," which received 3.2 Million in 2013, despite being accused by the likes of Israel, of funding Hamas.

The purpose of such funding is not to promote one ideology over another, but to support those organizations which are perceived to offer a benefit to the wider community.

Regardless, there is nothing that indicates that the purpose of such funding is to promote a religious group or belief at the expense of any other. Nor is there any evidence to indicate that the UK govt created a new religion or simply created a new religious figure for people to follow as per the accusation against Ahmadis... And why would it ? Why would it need to create division among Muslims of India ? Were all those Muslims who joined the British army in India perceived as a threat?

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What did you learn that you didnt already know ?

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^lol...no one trusts the ex gangster and ex jihadist Majid Nawaz. Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about.

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Im sorry. I am ignorant, thats why I went back and actually looked up this Quillium foundation. I havent found anything that proves they are a cult or have any ill intent toward the wider Muslim community. The opposition toward them all sounds like paranoia. Believe what you like, but without evidence, its just that, your belief. Has this organization gotten public funds? Yes. But the UK govt funds many such groups, both Muslim and non-muslim. Islamic relief being one of them. Or Islamic relief also a conspiracy against muslims ?

Your assertion seems to imply that the UK is somehow actively trying to undermine Islam and Muslims. I dont see how.

And the fact that the Quillium Foundation (you still have to explain to me how its a cult) received Public funding, does not prove that Ahmadis are the creation of the British govt. There is no logical reason why they would do so. I know Muslims like to believe otherwise, but I chalk that up to Muslims with an over inflated sense of self-importance needing such conspiracies to justify their beliefs about themselves. The notion goes, that the British must have created The Ahmadis because we Muslims were such a HUGE force that they had to control us somehow !

The more logical rational for the rise of Ahmadi's can be found in the history of Islam itself, which is replete with such divisions, starting from the very first between Sunnis and Shia. Historically speaking, Ahmadis arent an anomaly, they are just another in a long line of such divisions.
Just think about that. Why would the British need to divide muslims when muslims were hardly a threat to them. So why go to that trouble? And isnt it more reasonable to assume that such groups can arise independently, when we have had multiple precedences of such groups arising independently prior within Islamic history ?

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Referring to your bolded statement, it is baffling to me that a person who considers themselves muslim and considers Ahmadis muslim would be calling folks who are ISIS-followers, Taliban-followers as muslim, and would FURTHER paint all mainstream muslims as being associated with these animals.

I as a sunni, have never lynched a homosexual. I have not done any of the things in fact that you've mentioned above, and YES, that is me as a muslim - a MAINSTREAM muslim - saying that these actions are unIslamic and followers of these groups are anything but muslim.

The fact that the Ahmedis are associated mainstream muslims with ISIS and pointing to them saying "Look this is what non-ahmedis do" speaks to the fact that the Ahmedi jamat has a political purpose to serve British interests historically.

This is a sad line you guys are treading. It's pretty much treason against the rest of the Ummah, to be calling mainstream Islam a murderous religion. Then why do you call yourselves muslim? Go ahead and call yourselves non-muslim, then.

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Actually, apostasy is not punishable by death Islamically, and neither is homosexuality. Read the Quran. It's all there. We aren't allowed to touch people if they chose to not believe in Islam, or have different ideas about the faith. Everyone has a choice. Clear verses in the Quran that tell us that if someone chooses to not believe in God, or Islam, then leave them alone.

And don't bring in historical "jihad" by Muhammad SAW into this, because 1) you as an Ahmedi believe in Prophet Muhammad, so you automatically believe in his form of jihad, and 2) his jihad wasn't against people who didn't believe in God, it was against people who were OPPRESSIVE and were not allowing for freedom of religion, and were preventing muslims from practicing and engaging in a GENOCIDE against muslims. And it was only after a migration away from the problem crew that failed, did a command come down to engage in Jihad.

There are reasons for this. These rules of Jihad are no longer being followed today, evidence these are not real Jihad movements but rather, anarchy and war motivated by selfishness, and psychotic people who are under the influence of Shaitan.

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Med911
Actually, Majid Nawaz and you have the same belief regarding ISIS being part of Islam and Sunni Islam. The repute of Majid and his movement is unpopular among mainstream muslims as well as left wingers. But sitting in US googling away you wouldn't get to the bottom of it. Better googling The Guardian articles on Majid Nawaz. He's accused a lot of peaceful muslim orgs and individuals of extremism. He himself was a gangster, then became extreme HT and MBH...and now totally took u-turn as a far-right "liberal".

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I'm referring to SUNNI Muslims as a group, not you individually. Whether you agree or not, you ascribe to a group that are often brainwashed. ISIS, Taliban, etc are all Sunni. Many of the fools who run off to join ISIS ARE Sunni, and probably no different from you. That you havent joined a Terrorist group doesn't change the fact that many people just like you have... Brainwashing is very active process among the mainstream Muslims. Hell, all this hate you people spew against Ahmadis is also the product off years of brainwashing. And now your claiming THEY are the ones brainwashed. I would laugh if it werent so pathetic.
Instead of pretending to be so progressive and tolerant, why don't you actually meet Ahmadis directly to see what they believe, and if indeed they r misinformed then you correct them. I trust you understand how hypocritical it is to accuse others they are ivnorant off you, when you know nothing of them yourself....

Spare me your treason accusation. Im essentially agnostic. And I do believe that mainstream muslim community are corrupt, intolerant and ignorant. Your not helping to change that perception. Your line is not one one I want to be in. Ajd I say that after having known you people all my life.

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ISIS is a muslim terrorist organization. Its composed entirely of muslims. You mayand I may not like it, but that's a fact. Disown them all u like. Majid at least accepts an uncomfortable truth, while the rest seem to be in denial. How do you expect to solve the issue when you refuse to own the problem???

And I only mentioned his group because u mentioned his organization. As of now I haven't found any reason to suspect the organization itself. Google is a valid means of research. I would suggest you do some Googling yourself.

U cant willy nilly deny someone is a Muslim... It doesnt work that way. They will use the same koran and same hadeeth to show u are wrong and they r in the right.

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Actually it depends on who you ask. Really depends on you ethical leaning. Its a matter of interpretation. Read the Koran its all there.
“But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.”

"Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” " Sahih Al Bukhari Book 9:83:17

Now people have reinterpreted this… But again, you cant give yourself permission to reinterpet somthing while denying the same right to others.

Secondly im not Ahmadi. I just support their rights as Human beings. That you would assume I must be because I look upon them with empathy speaks volume for how brainwashed you yourself must be. Ignorant much ?

I dont give a rats rear end about historical jihad or any other jihad. you can mold your beliefs to conform to whatever ideological leaning you prefer.

My issue is a general one. only with whether or not you acknowledge that where you have a right to believe what you like and where you demand others respect your identity, you show the same respect to them. Its simple. We all have an identity. We all have a god given right to that identity. Its not your place to deny others that identity. Its nice that you dont throw homosexuals of tall buildings, thanks for that… But to be a good person means you acknowledge that just as you have a right to your identity as a Muslim, others to including Ahmadis, have a right to that same identity. I doubt you would agree. But I suppose you understand why I must find your accusation of they being the ones brainwashed as so laughable. :slight_smile: