I am not against you nor blaming you but it takes two hands to clap and even though you claim you know Islam better then them, makes it most difficult to understand your assertion that her parents failed to bring her up properly . And in trying to understand you, I feel sad that you have first claimed it was the fathers fault ( his caste affiliations) then it was the mother who was dirty ( plotted against you two) and now it was also the lack of Islamic knowledge on the part of the girl too ( parents failed to educate her)
I am indeed sorry for you , But What I have been trying to convey to you in principal is that parents have to be respected and even when they are in error , we cannot start to rebel against them in such ways that will destroy the harmony of that home or teach others to become rebellious against their parents .
Marriage is the foundation for society anything that undermines it can only lead to ruin ( check out the western society) and cannot be encouraged in Islam. I hope you will be able to learn patience and be able to remove this feelings that you seem to be having against those who may have rejected you unjustly.
I hope you will also forgive me, for being very direct and I have not accused you or judged you but given another perspective for your consideration and benefit.
[quote]
If someone is following a family tradition (man-made rules) when Islam (ALLAH's message) has clearly defined that, that thing is not right; even still that person continues to follow that family tradition (which is a man's message ofcourse), when he knows that Islam (Allah's message) clearly considers it illegal; ISN'T THIS SHIRK??
[/quote]
** Shirk means associating partners with Allah. Shirk can also encompase any object that a person may hold in regard higher than Allah. It is the most severe of sins and will not be forgiven..**
As I have repeatedly said, there is no such traditions or cultural practices that talk about castes in Islam, If you believe so and so is following a “man made rules” or “harbor cultural prejudices against others” , that has nothing to do with shirk as it would be defined in Islam. Those practices are merely that persons desires/customs based on ignorance . Here you have not fully understood Islam. And neither has those people who are following such traditions.
What I am concerned about is what this can lead to, as you have already stated a threat to harm you and your family has already been issued by the father, so If you test that ignorant person’s resolve the consequences of such actions can be deadly for all of you . Are you ready to allow harm to come to yourself and your family ? that is what you should consider very carefully in these matters. This is not a question on who is right and who is wrong but a question on what can be achieved and what cannot be achieved . I have already conveyed we will all be judged by our intentions, hence if your/our intention was good, you/we have nothing to fear.
Most people who have become accustomed to certain norms will not be willing to change overnight, it takes time and older people will be most difficult to handle when that is what they have known for most parts of their life . The only solution for such societies is educating the children and hoping they will be able to remove such traditions and prejudices from their societies in the long run.
** Never let the things we can’t, don’t or shouldn’t have spoil our judgment of the things we do have and can have **
You seem to be blaming everyone and anyone except yourself. True clarity stems from seeing one's own mistakes and taking action to rectify those mistakes. Br. Ibrahim has given you many suggestions on how to rectify your situation and has tried to show you that there is another point of view of looking at your situation. To rectify your past mistakes may not be the answer you were hoping to get from others. Perhaps you had hoped everyone would jump on your bandwagon for eloping.
Start with this: Do you honestly, unwaveringly, believe in Allah? Do you trust in him and do you believe that if you follow what he says you will get your just reward? If you do then you would be looking to Allah for guidance. Remember this is a test.
If Allah meant for you and the girl to be together, you will be. No man or woman can stand in the way. If it is meant to be, it will BE. Allah has moved mountains, parted seas, and changed many people's hearts. Man is not standing in your way... If it is Allah's Will, this man and his wife will change their hearts.
"I am not against you nor blaming you but it takes two hands to clap and even though you claim you know Islam better then them, makes it most difficult to understand your assertion that her parents failed to bring her up properly . And in trying to understand you, I feel sad that you have first claimed it was the fathers fault ( his caste affiliations) then it was the mother who was dirty ( plotted against you two) and now it was also the lack of Islamic knowledge on the part of the girl too ( parents failed to educate her)"
I do not claim that I know Islam better than them or anyone else.
Didn't I admit that I made a mistake too?
Blaming the parents for not bringing her up properly, well I mentioned this only after your repeated assertion that I shouldn't have done this and that.. and its supposed to be completely my fault!
Regarding my claims about the father (caste) and mother (playing dirty), well it seems to me that you have vowed to misunderstand me!
What is it that you are finding difficulty in understanding my friend? please be specific! The main problem is the influence of family tradition on the father (caste). I didn't want to discuss about the mother's (playing dirty) part, and I only mentioned this after someone suggested that I should talk to the mother. I don't like playing dirty. And I do not need you to feel sorry for me either. There is much more than what I've discussed here, and I never wanted to discuss so much, its only because your attitude was similar to those whom I've known that choose verses and hadith from the Quran and Sunnat that suits their claim and disregard those that are against them.
I know what has been going on in the past 4 years in this situation, and you don't. Yet you've been believing about how things are, who's right and who's not, based on your assumptions which are inclined to a negative attitude. Your post was sending a different message, which was based on personal worldly experience.
I had to give a brief summary of the whole event so that atleast you could stop believing in your false assumptions.
"I am indeed sorry for you , But What I have been trying to convey to you in principal is that parents have to be respected and even when they are in error , we cannot start to rebel against them in such ways that will destroy the harmony of that home or teach others to become rebellious against their parents"
O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135
We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to Me and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did. 29:8
I'll explain if you still have doubts!
I am not against respecting parents ok? I believe that one should not support their parents if their parents are doing something which is in conflict with Islam. I believe In Allah, whole heartedly Alhamdolellah. I also believe that it is our decisions we make in life that are responsible for us being in heaven or hell-fire. I also believe that when we are tested, we have to make decisions based on the guidance of Allah. Islam educates us on being JUST, so if one has a test/trial and he/she has to make a decision, her/his decision should be JUST, even if it is against her/his PARENTS! I hope you understand this, because after reading your posts, I can feel that this is what you are finding hard to believe. YOU think that I am teaching others to rebel against their parents? Well if one is right, he is right and when one is wrong he is wrong! Just like you say that when your intention is right then you have nothing to fear! The children should inform their parents about the mistake, because if their parents make that mistake, Allah shall punish them right? and I don't think any child would like to see his/her parents being punished, or can they? SO I suggest that if the parents are wrong and the children know that they are then it is the children's responsibility to inform their parents about the mistake their parents are making. Its not rebelling!! Its rebelling against Allah if you don't stop your parents when they are doing something wrong, because a Muslim is obliged to spread the message of Islam and I don't think that it is only to be spread to non-Muslims alone, or someone who's younger to you.
"Marriage is the foundation for society anything that undermines it can only lead to ruin ( check out the western society) and cannot be encouraged in Islam. I hope you will be able to learn patience and be able to remove this feelings that you seem to be having against those who may have rejected you unjustly."
I agree that it is the foundation for society, but if the foundation is based on a lie, how do you expect the building to last?
When there is no sincerity, honesty, trust, genuinity (your words) in this marriage, how do you think it will nurture? Its like taking it for granted. Do you think the relationship would grow? Have you ever thought about the effects it will have on the children?
Compare this with what happened in the days of ignorance! What's the difference?
"What I am concerned about is what this can lead to, as you have already stated a threat to harm you and your family has already been issued by the father, so If you test that ignorant person’s resolve the consequences of such actions can be deadly for all of you . Are you ready to allow harm to come to yourself and your family ? that is what you should consider very carefully in these matters. This is not a question on who is right and who is wrong but a question on what can be achieved and what cannot be achieved . I have already conveyed we will all be judged by our intentions, hence if your/our intention was good, you/we have nothing to fear."
Are you really concerned with what this could lead to? your observation in this matter is not favorable in the long run.
I am not afraid of death, it'll come when its due, not before nor after. I would rather test this person, rather than watch him do wrong.
"Most people who have become accustomed to certain norms will not be willing to change overnight, it takes time and older people will be most difficult to handle when that is what they have known for most parts of their life . The only solution for such societies is educating the children and hoping they will be able to remove such traditions and prejudices from their societies in the long run."
So they'll not change overnight, but will they ever change if those who know that they are doing wrong keep on supporting them? Are we waiting for miracles here or what? We know that what they're doing is incorrect, then why are we so helpless in correcting them? WHY? Aren't the Muslim's obliged to do that?
Educate children, is a solution true, but when the husband and wife have interest in life, when they are happy with their marriage life, when they trust their spouses, and are sincere to them and when they are honest, and when the relationship is genuine. When the marriage has taken place how Allah has guided, the chosen bride/groom were chosen based on their CHARACTER, not, because of FAMILY STATUS, FORTUNE, BEAUTY! NOT when its the opposite.
It can never happen, we'll continue having problems like this! I hope you don't have a problem in understanding this! I'll be more than glad to make it easy for you to do so.
I am not sure why do you think that I am not blaming myself? If you are referring to that part when I said that the blame must be borne by all who have hidden this issue, then its ok. Because I said that after my friend Ibrahim mentioned about who has to be blamed for hiding this issue.
I am aware of what I have done wrong and I am taking action to rectify those mistakes.
I thank my friend Ibrahim for taking time and suggesting me on what I should do, but the fact is that my friend doesn’t know me nor does he know the girl and her family, and therefore his suggestions are not based on facts. His suggestions are based on false assumptions, his experience and view of the world. My friend Ibrahim is disregarding facts here, his suggestions are supposed to be impartial, as claimed, but has he ever even mentioned about how my mother feels? How my family feels about this and how all this can disturb the harmony in our house? No he hasn’t! He claims that he wants to show me the other side of the coin, while he himself doesn’t want to even assume that there is another side in the coin. I don’t expect other’s to jump into my band-wagon just because it is mine and it is the right one, all I expect from the others is that they should be JUST in choosing the band wagon they should jump in! For help in choosing the band wagon I would like them to read Quran and Hadith, and get the facts before making their decision.
In all the hadith that I have read I’ve always understood that Islam suggests that we should choose our spouse, and for that we have been given the criteria too, that we should choose based on the character of the person. So I hope you understand what I’m referring to. It is in conflict with your last suggestion!
“And in trying to understand you, I feel sad that you have first claimed it was the fathers fault ( his caste affiliations) then it was the mother who was dirty ( plotted against you two) and now it was also the lack of Islamic knowledge on the part of the girl too ( parents failed to educate her)”
Compare…. Its all related to Lack of Islamic knowledge!
Lack of Islamic knowledge {the fathers fault ( his caste affiliations)}
Lack of Islamic knowledge {mother who was dirty ( plotted against you two)}
Lack of Islamic knowledge ( parents failed to educate her)
“The only solution for such societies is educating the children and hoping they will be able to remove such traditions and prejudices from their societies in the long run. “
VERSUS
“But What I have been trying to convey to you in principal is that parents have to be respected and even when they are in error”
“Marriage is the foundation for society anything that undermines it can only lead to ruin ( check out the western society) and cannot be encouraged in Islam.”
“I hope you will also forgive me, for being very direct and I have not accused you or judged you but given another perspective for your consideration and benefit.”
VERSUS
“Here you have not fully understood Islam.”
Ibrahim says; Brother my point being you took a risk knowingly and from what you have been conveying so far , you have more knowledge in Islam then they may have (by your own assertions) ., hence you should have known better and showed them the correct path instead of ending up being part of the problem.
Ibrahim says; Let me ask you something brother! Lets imagine instead of you, the father was on this forum and he was accusing you of abusing his daughter and cheating her , even though he believed you were a good Muslim and he had trusted you as a Muslim and your parents had failed to educate you , thus you have brought shame to his family and Islam. Blah blah blah …..
Brother ** Just imagine this scenario ** …(I am not saying you did this)
What will the people on this forum think of you? Some will immediately jump to the conclusion that you must be punished and You will surely cry that you have been unjustly slandered without your presence, right? Meaning it amounts to back biting.
My point being when you do this here without that parents having knowledge of it or having the means to defend themselves. it amounts to slander. Those who hears such things have two options, one to act in defense against such slander and give the benefit of doubt to the accused since he is not being represented here. whereas the accuser can defend himself or the second option being , to close the ears and move away and not hear anything concerning this.
Now consider this ………..
Al-Muwatta Hadith Hadith 41.18
** The Hadd for Slander, Denial and Insinuation **
Malik related to me from Zurayq ibn Hakim al-Ayli that a man called Misbah asked his son for help and he thought him unnecessarily slow. When the son came, ** his father said to him, “O fornicator.” ** Zurayq said, “So the son asked me to help him against the father. ** When I wanted to flog him, his son said, ‘By Allah, if you flog him, I will acknowledge that I have committed fornication.’ ** When he said that, the situation was confused for me, so I wrote about it to Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz who was the governor at that time, and I mentioned it to him. Umar wrote me to permit his pardon.”
Zurayq said, "I wrote to Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz also, ** ‘What do you think about a man who is slandered or his parents are slandered and both or only one of them are dead?’ ** He said, Umar wrote to me, ‘If he forgives, his pardon is permitted for himself. If his parents are slandered and one or both of them are dead, ** take the judgment of the Book of Allah for it unless he wants to veil it.’ " **
Yahya said, “I heard Malik say, ** 'That is because the slandered man might fear that if that is unveiled about him, a clear proof might be established. If it is according to what we have described, his pardon is permitted.” **
Ibrahim says: Which is what I did, but when you went on to say Muslims are using the Qur’an for their benefit only ( which you repeat down below also) . It was time I showed you the ropes or else I will become guilty of negating my responsibilities towards ensuring Islam is not misunderstood.
Ibrahim says; brother do not jump to conclusions , Justice demands that the accused has a say and must be represented ( must be present when an accusation is being made against him/her or else the accuser is backbiting ) or else they can be no justice ONLY injustice.
Ibrahim says; I made this clear in my earlier post. I will say it again, you were looking for advice in a particular scenario and you went one step further to accuse most Muslims who used the Qur’an and sunnah to assert their point…which is when I stepped in and showed you how you too have ended up doing the same ( read my first post)
Ibrahim says; My response was based on the fact that you were accusing everyone in that family whilst not fully accepting your part in that affair . I was conveying to you what are your options is such scenarios.
I was trying to prevent a cycle of violence such affairs can lead to, showing you that the parents can claim innocence too. Such problems are not based on religion or race but has to do with “PRIDE” . This problem exist in all societies. I personally know of a Filipino Muslim, who having had a loved affair finally ended up eloping and marrying the girl and today living or more or less hiding with his family and children. His problem being if he was found by his wife’s tribe he will be killed but his wife and children have no problem in being entertained by the parents but a death sentence is on his head as long as he lives.
He is quite lucky but many others have tried this and whole families have been killed or their lives ruined on account of their pride.
Ibrahim says: this verse was revealed concerning the emigrants and is to be cross referenced to this ayat.
4: 33 To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion: for truly Allah is Witness to all things
Ibrahim says in other words When the emigration took place from Makkah to Madinah, bonds and links of brotherhood were established between the Emigrants and the Helpers, and they shared in each other’s inheritance. Later, when the Community was solidly established, and relations with those left behind in Makkah were resumed, the rights of blood-relations in Makkah, and the Helper-brethren in Madinah were both safeguarded. This is the particular meaning. The more general meaning is similar; respect your ties of blood, of neighbourhood, and of friendly compacts and understandings. ** Be just to all. **
The general commentary for the verse you are quoting is Some people may be inclined to favor the rich, because they expect something from them. Some people may be inclined to favour the poor because they are generally helpless. Partiality in either case is wrong. Be just, without fear of favour. Both the rich and the poor are under Allah’s protection as far as their legitimate interests are concerned, but they cannot expect to be favoured at the expense of others. And He can protect their interests far better than any man.
Ibrahim says; Good that you quoted this verse now think as to what is being stressed here.
Commentary for above verse.
That is, no certainty. ** In matters of faith and worship, even parents have no right to force their children. ** They cannot and must not hold up before them any worship but that of the One True God.
Children and parents must all remember that they have all to go before Allah’s tribunal, and answer, each for his own deeds. ** In cases where one set of people have lawful authority over another set of people (as in the case of parents and children), and the two differ in important matters like that of Faith, the latter are justified in rejecting authority:** the apparent conflict will be solved when the whole truth is revealed to all eyes in the final Judgment
Ibrahim says; This specifically applies to matters of faith, meaning if any of your parents told you, you must worship Christ or an idol than you have the right to reject them but in other matters you must show kindness to them.
Now read!
31: 14 And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him and in years twain was his weaning:** (hear the command) "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal. **
17: 23 Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life ** say not to them a word of contempt nor repel them but address them in terms of honor. **
6: 151 Say: ** “Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from”: join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: ** kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom
** Meaning Allah (swt) had ranked honoring , being good to ones parents the second most important thing to do in life **
Ibrahim says; Agreed…now consider….how sure are you that you have been just in your actions , you have gone against norms and followed what was or is being practiced by the unbelievers , (I have already made it clear to you that , there is no caste system in Islam and your problem has to do with that tribes pride) . It is not you who will have to go against those parents but their own daughter and in so doing that whole family is going to end up a bad taste . Do you think that is just?
Now find out the kind of example the Prophet showed Muslims
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 6.309 Narrated by Aisha
(the wife of the Prophet) when Allah’s Apostle was ordered to give option to his wives, he started with me, saying, “I am going to mention to you something, but you shall not hasten (to give your reply) ** unless you consult your parents.” ** The Prophet knew that my parents would not order me to leave him. Then he said, “Allah says: 'O Prophet (Muhammad)! Say to your wives: If you desire the life of this world and its glitter…a great reward.” (33.28-29) ** I said, “Then why I consult my parents? Verily, I seek Allah, His Apostle and the Home of the Hereafter.” Then all the other wives of the Prophet did the same as I did. **
Ibrahim says; Notice how a married woman ( Prophet’s own wives) are advised to consult their parents on matters that may have serious implications in the woman’s life.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 8.4
Narrated by Abdullah bin Amr
Allah’s Apostle said. ** “It is one of the greatest sins that a man should curse his parents.”** It was asked (by the people), “O Allah’s Apostle! How does a man curse his parents?” The Prophet said, ** “The man abuses the father of another man and the latter abuses the father of the former and abuses his mother.” **
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.9 Narrated by Abdullah bin Amr
The Prophet said, ** “Al-Kaba’ir (the biggest sins) are: ** To join others (as partners) in worship with Allah,** to be undutiful to one’s parents,” ** or said, “to take a false oath.” (The sub-narrator, Shu’ba is not sure) Mu’adh said: Shu’ba said, “Al-kaba’ir (the biggest sins) are: (1) Joining others as partners in worship with Allah, (2) to take a false oath (3) and to be undutiful to one’s parents,” or said, “to murder (someone unlawfully).”
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 1.505 Narrated by Abdullah
I asked the Prophet ** “Which deed is the dearest to Allah?”** He replied, “To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times.” I asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” He replied, ** “To be good and dutiful to your parents.” ** I again asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” He replied, “To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah’s cause.” 'Abdullah added, “I asked only that much and if I had asked more, the Prophet would have told me more.”
Ibrahim says: Now assuming you consider it just that you elope with their daughter and that person consider it just to accuse you of kidnapping their daughter and their tribe consider it just to declare war on your tribe and hunting you down and killing you, your parents and your tribe…how much justice or injustice can all this lead to?
Ibrahim says; Hold on a minute , you are saying all this things and you are declaring yourself right, so far as the participants of this forum are concerned they only know what little they heard form you, From what I have presented earlier, there is considerable room for doubt, so If you feel you have won your case, by all means I cannot do anything to stop you from believing as such but no court will grant you a verdict just based on what you had to say about it.
Ibrahim says; Brother, that man had been married for 27 years and lived his life and brought up his children , his experiences and trails are more then you on this planet. Sure he is wrong in his desire to chose a good husband for his daughter which is against his daughter’s will but you nor her will be able to preach to him, just because you have some needs/desires. ** The procedure here is to approach the problem in a manner that can be accepted by him. Force is not the solution and never is. The “approach” to solving the problem had been dealt with by me and others on this forum ** BUT you seem to be looking for vengeance ( I hope I am wrong) and you, due to your youth as well as to his rejection of you should not be the person to approach him on such matters.
Consider this……….
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2524 Narrated by AbuSa’id al-Khudri
** A man emigrated ** to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) from the Yemen. He asked (him): Have you anyone (of your relatives) in the Yemen? He replied: My parents. ** He asked: Did they permit you? He replied: No. ** He said: Go back to them and ask for their permission. If they permit you, then fight (in the path of Allah), ** otherwise be devoted to them. **
Second informing, pleading, advising is one thing and telling, demanding is another but you sound very much like demanding ( in this forum) and that is why I say it amounts to rebellion. now read what Allah (swt) said. ** say not to them ( parents) a word of contempt nor repel them but address them in terms of honor. **
So the warning is clear…it has to with how it is to be approached…and that is why I suggested you get some elders or imam or the jamath to handle this. Not people whom he may consider are still in their youth, especially someone who is against his judgment.
Consider this…………
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 4933 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “He who casts up the favours he has done, ** he who is disobedient to parents, and he who is addicted to wine will not enter Paradise.” **
Nasa’i and Darimi transmitted it.
Ibrahim says; Are you claiming all marriages are based on lies or you believe , if who ever you love ended up marrying any other ( forced or otherwise) it becomes a lie?
Ibrahim says; All these are the ingredients to nurture relationships ( any relationship) But Do you know there are societies on this planet which still practice kidnapping a bride for themselves ? now this is similar to eloping but in such societies vengeance is not practiced and because it is their custom it is tolerated but that is not the case for you. I am not saying it is alright but you just do not seem to understand even love marriages can end up in divorces and many people are living together because they have no other choice.
(meaning they are enduring their trials with patience and nurturing it as they know best)
Ibrahim says; So, all people must agree with you? This is like saying “you are with us or you are with the terrorists”
Ibrahim says; am I stopping you? Testing a person is Allah (swt) absolute will and prerogative ours is only to convey what is right and forbid what is wrong. We do such things by making the right “approach”.
Ibrahim says: Simple! because Not everyone will be having this problem and people who may have come across such problems go about doing the things (like eloping/rebelling/inciting feuds ) not realizing that such problems can only be solved in the manner it is addressed/approached, not by accusing the person but by doing dawah in a respectful manner. Hence when I suggested you bring this matter to an imam that person is familiar to or their jamath leaders, you don’t seem to understand too well. What else you expect others to do? If he is in this forum, maybe some of us can talk with him, but am sure that is not the case , right?
Ibrahim says; If you honesty want to believe what you want to believe, so be it. But Allah (swt) conveyed to all of mankind the following
Read!
22: 14 Verily Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: ** for Allah carries out all that He plans. **
15 ** If any think that Allah will not help him (His Apostle) in this world ** and the Hereafter let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and cut (himself) off: ** then let him see whether his plan will remove that which enrages (him)! **
And the Prophet (pbuh) conveyed
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 4941 Narrated by Abu Umamah
A man said, “Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) ** what rights can parents demand from their children?” ** He replied, ** “They are your Paradise and your Hell.” **
My friend, you prefer running in Circles, well to be very honest, I don't.
You are having a difficulty in accepting that your suggestions, accusations, allegations are based on YOUR FALSE ASSUMPTIONS!
WOULD YOU PLEASE STOP ASSUMING?
I can feel your EGO here!
"Ibrahim says; Let me ask you something brother! Lets imagine instead of you, the father was on this forum and he was accusing you of abusing his daughter and cheating her , even though he believed you were a good Muslim and he had trusted you as a Muslim and your parents had failed to educate you , thus you have brought shame to his family and Islam. Blah blah blah ….. "
the blah blah blah is your ASSUMPTION!
I came to this board because of this problem of Caste System and its influence on the Society, which is supposed to be Islamic.
I have involved members of her family elder male members and my family members are involved too, yet you are adamant that I want to solve this issue by force? or by other means eloping/rebelling/inciting feuds. Why do you keep having such assumptions my friend why?
I'll write in detail soon, but I don't like running in circles, please cut it off. Don't assume please. You don't know her mother her father or the whole scenario, so, please act in a responsible way.
6: 151 Say: "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom
good that you mentioned this verse... kill not your children on a plea of want... do you get the picture?
I heard you story and admire your genuine affection for this girl.
I havent read all the posts so my apologies if this has been mentioned before.
What if you took with you some respected Islamic Scholars, not some average moulvi, but a hightly respected and educated moulvi to her father. Maybe that will open up the knot. And do convince his father with greate respect, after all you dont want this marriage to be a turbulent one dividing his family. That surely wont help you at all.
inDifferent you are pathetic looser, what you are babbling in front of world is just plain bull$hit, trying to gather sympathies to coverup your ugly face.
[quote]
Originally posted by raaj-dulara:
inDifferent you are pathetic looser, what you are babbling in front of world is just plain bull$hit, trying to gather sympathies to coverup your ugly face.
Step further and you are good for organ donation.
[/quote]
Brother/Sister kindly mind your manners
** GOOD SPEECH **
"Say to My servants that they should (only) say those things that are best: for Satan doth sow dissensions among them." (17:53)
"[The believers] have been guided... *to the purest of speeches." * (22:24)
"Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and backbiter." (104:1)
RESPECT
"Say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: 'Do ye (also) submit yourselves?' If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, *thy duty is to convey the Message." * (3:20)
"Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on each other, *nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother?" * (49:12)
** Any way, call it caste system or tribalism , it has NO place in Islam **
Such practices which existed from ancient times were frowned upon and the prophet (pbuh), himself had to marry into different tribes to demonstrate what Islam teaches, even though Allah (swt) revealed the following.
49: 13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female ** and made you into nations and tribes that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). ** Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)
2) This nature of man having strong in-group loyalty within members of their own tribes exist amongst every race, ethnic groups and tribe including Europeans and westerners on this planet.
3) NO one including me on this forum had supported it, we are all for you in this matter but as conveyed to you from the beginning by most members in this forum, you have to approach the problem in a sound manner and you cannot expect the tribes to give up their group loyalty overnight. If you have the grace and desore to do something about it, start doing dawah to those people and concentrate on their children, for the elders may be beyond salvage in my experience.
4) Any un-Islamic methods must be rooted out , hence If you have observed Islamic methods , you won’t be having the problem in the first place.
5) Muslims cannot encourage values that would destabilize the family unit, hence children must be taught that respect and obedience to parents are fundamental values that are not only taught but have to be practiced. Children are our future hence they must be taught and shown that they will have to look after their parents as their parents had looked after them. Any breach in this cycle of events will mean the collapse of humanity.
6) Marriage being the foundation for the Islamic society cannot be undermined by hasty decisions that children may make without the consent of the parent or guardian. The parent being given the responsibility to look after the children entrusted to them by Allah (swt) have lawful authority over their decisions and have to be consulted and respected in an Islamic society.
Read the earlier hadith I quoted concerning a “man” wishing to do jihad in the cause of Allah (swt) was sent back by the Prophet (pbuh) because his parents had not given him permission and his parent shaving legal authority over his decision to do jihad.
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* 6: 151 Say: "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom *
good that you mentioned this verse... kill not your children on a plea of want... do you get the picture?
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Ibrahim says; Brother various verses were revealed for various purposes and have specific meaning and general meanings.
The specific meaning of what “kill not your children on a plea of want” refers to, is the Pagan custom of sacrificing children to “Moloch” and general meaning will be to infanticide in those days by Arabs and pagans (hindus) ( infanticide still practiced by Hindus even today. )