Khansahib,
The only person I know who is elder than her father is her father's elder brother.
His elder brother had raised him after the early death of their father, so his elder brother is like a father to him, but he does'nt listen to him either, although his elder brother did claim that he'll be able to convince him.
Pendu Power
I do need all the prayers so that things get sorted out in the right way.
But as far as the two of us thinking together on our future plans is concerned, the clock is ticking real fast, its not easy for us to get in touch now, we know what we want and we've tried all legitimate ways possible. We have not been able to beat the influence of Society and family traditions on the many people around us.
Unfortunately you are faced with a Pakistani problem and not an Islamic problem. The cultural aspect is just another Hindu adopted disease tagging along in to the society.
The simplest solution would be to get your witnesses and do the Nikah and then live your own lives. However, this does come with a price! You will become outcasts and your families in Pakistan or wherever, will most probably be punished. Then the whole revenge cycle will begin! I'm sure you've seen the films.
It's unfortunate that the father doesn't understand the following ayats:
- This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
004.019 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
Maybe you should quote them to him.
I know that this is a Cultural Problem, but it becomes Islamic when certain people quote verses from the Quran, and they tell you
That Allah wants us to obey our parents, no matter what they want you to do.
How will your parents forgive you if you marry some one against their wishes?
How will you lead a good life if your parents blessings are not there for you?
And the list goes on.
This is very common in our Society, people misguide innocent people without knowing the facts, or sometimes by hiding the facts.
They basically choose verses and hadith from the Quran and Sunnat that suits them and disregard those which are against them.
In the name of Allah, most gracious and most merciful
When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed" they say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?.2:170
The parable of those who reject faith is as if one were to shout like a goat-herd to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries; deaf dumb and blind they are void of wisdom. 2:171
O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135
We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to Me and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did. 29:8
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
**I know that this is a Cultural Problem, but it becomes Islamic when certain people quote verses from the Quran, and they tell you
That Allah wants us to obey our parents, no matter what they want you to do.
How will your parents forgive you if you marry some one against their wishes?
How will you lead a good life if your parents blessings are not there for you?
And the list goes on.
This is very common in our Society, people misguide innocent people without knowing the facts, or sometimes by hiding the facts.
They basically choose verses and hadith from the Quran and Sunnat that suits them and disregard those which are against them.
In the name of Allah, most gracious and most merciful
When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed" they say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?.2:170
The parable of those who reject faith is as if one were to shout like a goat-herd to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries; deaf dumb and blind they are void of wisdom. 2:171
O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135
We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to Me and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did. 29:8
**
[/quote]
Different, this is so....I dont even have the words for it!!
I have been through that emotional blackmailing from family, ke Allah kabhi maaf nahin karre ga etc.
But then again, will Allah ever forgive those who manipulates youngsters, who are paying respect to their elder.
It is not difficult as such to marry someone you love, but then one is aware of the fatal consequenses and wants to act properly.
Man made rules are only to be broken.
Only Allahs's rules are to be followed!
I wish you good luck!
Make sure, that the moments wont fly away from you!
All this happens in our society and we know that its not right, but we want to wait for miracles to happen without getting ourselves involved!
Today its me, and tomorrow it'll be someone else, and its going to continue.... unless and until WE do something about it, rather than supporting our unjust elders when they misuse their authority. The young always respect their elders but the elders take advantage of this!!
In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful
After this it is ye the same people who slay among yourselves and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (their enemies) against them in guilt and rancor; and if they come to you as captives ye ransom them though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.Sura: 2. Baqarah Verse:85
Revealed in: Madinah
Verily Man is in loss 103:2
Except such as have Faith and do righteous deeds and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth and of Patience and Constancy. 103:3
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Unfortunately you are faced with a Pakistani problem and not an Islamic problem. The cultural aspect is just another Hindu adopted disease tagging along in to the society.
The simplest solution would be to get your witnesses and do the Nikah and then live your own lives. However, this does come with a price! You will become outcasts and your families in Pakistan or wherever, will most probably be punished. Then the whole revenge cycle will begin! I'm sure you've seen the films.
**
[/quote]
About getting the witnesses, well technically speaking, my whole family and her whole family are aware that we intend to marry each other, and we have been together in front of our family members together after we had informed them about our intention and those people present did belong to both families. Aren't they witnesses too? They didn't have any problems with us getting married except that they wanted to include her father...
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
They basically choose verses and hadith from the Quran and Sunnat that suits them and disregard those which are against them.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Good point brother , actually I was wondering how was it that you managed to have a relationship with an unwed Muslim girl for 4 years without understanding the fact that all things works according to Allah’s absolute will and Allah (swt) had explicitly warned against contact with unwed girls?
Read!
Surah An Nur – ( LIGHT)
27 O ye who believe! ** enter not houses other than your own until ye have asked permission ** and saluted those in them: that is best for you in order that ye may heed (what is seemly).
28 If ye find no one in the house enter not until permission is given to you: if ye are asked to go back go back: ** that makes for greater purity for yourselves: and Allah knows well all that ye do. **
29 It is no fault on your part to enter houses not used for living in which serve some (other) use for you: and ** Allah has knowledge of what ye reveal and what ye conceal. **
30 ** Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.**
31 And say to ** the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;** that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty ** except to their husbands their fathers their husbands' fathers their sons their husbands' sons their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or the slaves whom their right hands possess or male servants free of physical needs or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; ** and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss.
32 Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves male or female:** if they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things. **
33 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage ** keep themselves chaste until Allah gives them means out of His grace. ** And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them).
34 ** We have already sent down to you verses making things clear an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you and an admonition for those who fear (Allah). **
Because I intended to marry her and I sent a proposal and because I had assurances from members of her family that they will be able to convince her dad, even after they knew that we had a relationship they did not ask us to stop communicating.
I approached her mother and she met my mother and when my mother asked her when we could meet the girl's father, her mother assured us that she will arrange a meeting soon. Which she didn't till yet, but during all this time my mother and I have met many other member's of her family.
I do not want to get into details about how it all started, because if you knew, you wouldn't have had that sort of an opinion about this relationship. But since you've mentioned I need to ask you something
Isn't it the father's responsibility to know what his daughter is upto? Isn't he supposed to know what's going on in his house?
Isn't the wife supposed to discuss about a proposal for their daughter with her husband?
When there's a problem, there's a cause, a point where the problem originates. Right?
Where do you think that point is? in this scenario?
My friend Alhamdolellah I do try my best to implement Islam in my life as much as I can, and I have read Surat Al-Noor several times.
The truth is that you cannot change the past, I did things which were inappropriate but should I keep on doing them? or should I rectify? Isn't it better to suffer here than to suffer after death? For certain issues there is no repentance only punishment, So I am not left with an option here, I have to rectify what we've done wrong in order to avoid so many people get punished, just because they had a strong influence of man made rules over them.
There are things which are being hidden from the father, by many members of her family, commitment's made by many members on behalf of her father to my family, all this and even more, should I wait till its too late or should I try to get the facts known to her dad (which eventually will), before he does something that can mess things up?
Her father is worried about his insult right? Isn't that in Allah's control? He might try to avoid that insult by forcing her daughter to marry someone else (may Allah forbid this to happen) other than me, but since he doesn't know the facts, what will happen if those facts unveil after the marriage? Can he then avoid the insult? That he hid facts about her daughter from her in-laws?
This is not out of my wierd imaginations, but this is based on the facts, that are in the dark, but since so many people within my family and her family are aware, this is what is most likely to happen.
I do not want other people to suffer because of my involvement in an issue.
I have had a relationship with an un-wed girl for four years and it was wrong, but what is the solution from here?
I hate to imagine that a person is marrying a boy/girl and one fine day he/she finds out that that boy/girl actually has someone else on his/her mind and was married to him/her only because his/her parents forced him/her to.
It may not make any difference to many people but to me, it does matter, I have a conscience which is not in a state of Coma, Alhamdolellah. I don't want that to happen in someone's life and that too because of me!
[quote]
Because I intended to marry her and I sent a proposal and because I had assurances from members of her family that they will be able to convince her dad, even after they knew that we had a relationship they did not ask us to stop communicating.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; In other words, your proposal NEVER reached the father and you knew from the start that the father was a “difficult person” and he being the head of that family will have to be “convinced” by their family or else you will be having serious problems. Thus it has taken you 4 years to realize this. Do not blame the women they are indeed weak in such matters and once a girl set her mind a mother might be able to do little about it, that is why fathers are around. But when mothers start hiding things cannot blame the father either.
Brother , Islam teaches us to “prevent” an act that will harm us , that is why we try to follow the teachings the Qur’an and do our best to practice the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) . Here clearly as a knowledgeable Muslim, you knew what you were getting into and from what I know Allah (swt) does put his creation into trials when they knowingly rebel against his commands.
What I am saying is that you need to turn to Allah (swt) in prayer, patience and penitence and correct your mistakes and make a firm oath to your Creator that you will not fail to comply and he may well make your road easy for you.
[quote]
I approached her mother and she met my mother and when my mother asked her when we could meet the girl's father, her mother assured us that she will arrange a meeting soon. Which she didn't till yet, but during all this time my mother and I have met many other member's of her family.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: My brother, this does not mean you have been given a certificate to have an intimate relationship with an unwed girl or even take her out without the consent of the father nor is that a valid pre marriage contract/arrangement . Since both the mothers are well aware of this, get them to resolve the issues, I am sure from the number of posts that you have been making on this thread, you would have already tried that. Yet being impatient on your own is not going to help anyone.
Maybe you can bring this matter to an Imam that the father of the bride is familiar with to negotiate on your behalf ( this is where a wali/ marriage broker is most useful) or to the jamath leaders if any.
[quote]
Isn't it the father's responsibility to know what his daughter is upto?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; The responsibility to look after daughters belongs to both parents yet daughters in particular are best looked after by the mother and IF the mother had hidden this affair than the father cannot be blamed can he?
[quote]
Isn't he supposed to know what's going on in his house?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : when you become a father and depending on your income you may well learn how difficult it can be to manage a home where a wife and daughter has decided to keep things secret. Please do not find someone to blame , the blame has to born by those who have been hiding the matter, that would include you.
[quote]
Isn't the wife supposed to discuss about a proposal for their daughter with her husband?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Yes, that is why proposals are done by your parents visiting their parents and openly declaring your intent to marry their daughter and than hoping a favorable reply is received from their parents. Not by having relationships which could well lead into serious problems or by just seeking the permission from one of the parent.
[quote]
When there's a problem, there's a cause, a point where the problem originates. Right? Where do you think that point is? in this scenario?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: The problem is you had a verbal understanding with one parent and her daughter and you knew the other parent would be objecting to it but yet went on with an affair for 4 years, that was against your own conscience and against your own faith.
Meaning instead of preventing it you are now left to look for a cure after 4 years.
[quote]
My friend Alhamdolellah I do try my best to implement Islam in my life as much as I can, and I have read Surat Al-Noor several times. The truth is that you cannot change the past, I did things which were inappropriate but should I keep on doing them? or should I rectify?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Brother, if life was just a piece of cake, why would we need to have guidance and Prophets ? So If you did wrong, the solutions are provided for you depending on the wrong you had done . The rectification of such wrongs is why you still have been given life on this planet. So rectify them within the precepts of right conduct. Remember, to understand a person you need to place yourself in their shoes .
So now try to imagine you had a daughter and you had certain intentions and suddenly you find your daughter and wife opposing you or have been keeping secrets from you. what would you do?
Now imagine , As a father
1) you may have intended to marry your daughter to someone you knew was best for her
2) you may feel that the proposal made by so and so is not worthy for various reasons that are best known to you.
Can anyone now pass judgment on you, without knowing what the problem is all about . ( your notion that is has to do with castes, could be just one of the problem or could be an excuse that he is using to refuse the proposal. )
[quote]
Isn't it better to suffer here than to suffer after death?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; My brother, If you feel that you should suffer for what you have done, then do ahead and suffer for it or do you fail to realize that you are already suffering?
Repentance is available for all human beings who seek with earnestness and rectify their conduct.
Seeking forgiveness for committing an offence involves the following
a) Remembrance of the offence
b) Hastening to Stop committing that offence
c) Cessation from such conduct forever
d) Correction If any
e) Feeling sorrow and remorse about it
f) To be done before death.
This is how one seeks and Insha Allah, Allah (swt) entertains all who are sincere in the seeking.
[quote]
For certain issues there is no repentance only punishment, So I am not left with an option here,
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: what ? If that was the case you would have died the moment you committed it. Allah (swt) says he is the most merciful, so have faith in him . the Only offence that Allah (swt) has openly declared He may not forgive is shirk ( associating partners with him) , even that is Allah (swt) absolute will and not for me or you to judge.
[quote]
I have to rectify what we've done wrong in order to avoid so many people get punished, just because they had a strong influence of man made rules over them.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; you lost me here.
[quote]
There are things which are being hidden from the father, by many members of her family, commitment's made by many members on behalf of her father to my family, all this and even more,
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; hence you cannot blame the father altogether can you?
[quote]
should I wait till its too late or should I try to get the facts known to her dad (which eventually will), before he does something that can mess things up?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; why not advice your father to talk to him or assign a representative to negotiate with the father and explain the seriousness of the problem.
[quote]
Her father is worried about his insult right?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; I do not know this and IF you have not been in contact with him directly, you may well be wrong altogether. Even if you are right , Islam does not have such barriers, hence it is now a matter of getting such fears to the side and putting the cards on the table. For that to happen, you need to get some elders to represent you .
[quote]
Isn't that in Allah's control?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Yes! All matters work according to Allah (swt) will but you rebelled against Him and you knowingly took the risk and He created you to test you on this planet . How then can you blame him for what you have done?
[quote]
He might try to avoid that insult by forcing her daughter to marry someone else (may Allah forbid this to happen) other than me,
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; marriage is by consent only If the girl did not consent then they can be No marriage in Islamic terms, so try and get this across to her family in a respectful manner by using some elders to represent your family.
[quote]
but since he doesn't know the facts, what will happen if those facts unveil after the marriage? Can he then avoid the insult?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; which means only the two of you are aware of what took place and it is now for the two of you to owe up and save yourselves and your families from disgrace in the future. The two of you are guilty and by saying that it may cause problem later on is not the issue , the issue is getting the matter resolved amicably, Such that everyone understands their mistakes and make amends for them.
[quote]
That he hid facts about her daughter from her in-laws?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; why are you worried about his sins when you should be worried about yours.
[quote]
This is not out of my wierd imaginations, but this is based on the facts, that are in the dark, but since so many people within my family and her family are aware, this is what is most likely to happen.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; since you know this , it is time all of you owed up and presented that man the details of what has been going on behind his back.
[quote]
I do not want other people to suffer because of my involvement in an issue.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Allah (swt) says……… on No one does He place a burden greater then they can bear! Do you believe in Him?
[quote]
I have had a relationship with an un-wed girl for four years and it was wrong, but what is the solution from here?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Either work out the deal amicably by confessing to her parents of the feelings you two have for each other or make it public and accept your fate. That is the only Islamic way in such matters and what I might do , if I am in your shoes.
The issue here is not about love for one another , it is about what may have taken place in your relationship.
[quote]
I hate to imagine that a person is marrying a boy/girl and one fine day he/she finds out that that boy/girl actually has someone else on his/her mind and was married to him/her only because his/her parents forced him/her to.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Nothing new, millions are going throw such things, nowadays, even in western societies ( which is one of the reason for high divorce rate) all because they chose to follow their hearts and venture into things which had been forbidden and failed to acknowledge their own conscience and warnings from their Creator.
[quote]
It may not make any difference to many people but to me, it does matter, I have a conscience which is not in a state of Coma, Alhamdolellah. I don't want that to happen in someone's life and that too because of me!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; sadly I have to say you had failed your own conscience and your only option should be to bring out the truth of the matter to her father by both of you and face the music before the hammer drops. Running away with the girl without putting the cards on the table, would mean you have made yourself a fugitive too. May Allah (swt) guide you.
** Never idealize or overanalyze your relationship. A growing relationship can only be nurtured by sincerity, honesty and genuineness **
Ibrahim
I thank you for all the time you've put in. Thank you very much.
I've just read the post and I feel that I should disclose some facts only to clarify certain misunderstandings of the issue. I have to be careful so that I don't add up sins to myself.
I posted my post, so that I could discuss how and why there is so much corruption in our society because of the influence of family traditions on us. And now all those things have come up, about how parenting should be, and how a marriage life should be, how the society should be, what are the duties of the Imams in our locality, the Islamic Courts, the government, how the children should treat their parents, how we should not assume about things we are not fully aware of, how can a small lie damage many things, how wrong it is to give someone the benefit of the doubt (in this case to the father), what are the rights of a (father, mother, daughter, son, brother, sister), what should our priorities be, the list is a very long one.
I have 2 ways to respond, to generalize and/or to discuss my problem in particular, and I'll try to do both. You have tried to mix both together and I think that it is not wise to do so, I prefer we should discuss them seperately.
Thank you once again for your time, I sincerely have very high regards for you.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says; In other words, your proposal NEVER reached the father and you knew from the start that the father was a “difficult person” and he being the head of that family will have to be “convinced” by their family or else you will be having serious problems. Thus it has taken you 4 years to realize this. Do not blame the women they are indeed weak in such matters and once a girl set her mind a mother might be able to do little about it, that is why fathers are around. But when mothers start hiding things cannot blame the father either.
My FIRST proposal did not reach the father… True!
But proposals DID reach her father afterwards!
My family did trust her mother when she assured us that she would arrange a meeting with the girl’s father soon as she talks with him. What do you think my family should have done otherwise? We certainly didn’t expect her to lie to us? Or should we have known about what was inside of her? Based on what? She is a Woman? She is weak and doesn’t have a proper mindset? Male Dominance…!
**Brother , Islam teaches us to “prevent” an act that will harm us , that is why we try to follow the teachings the Qur’an and do our best to practice the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) . Here clearly as a knowledgeable Muslim, you knew what you were getting into and from what I know Allah (swt) does put his creation into trials when they knowingly rebel against his commands.
What I am saying is that you need to turn to Allah (swt) in prayer, patience and penitence and correct your mistakes and make a firm oath to your Creator that you will not fail to comply and he may well make your road easy for you.
Yes Islam teaches us to prevent an act that will harm us, and what am I doing here? Getting us close to hell fire? I am trying to do my best to follow and practice Islam in a Society that is heavily influenced by man made rules and assumptions.
I clearly knew that I had to marry the girl in order to prevent corruption, and that is why I did try to sort out things in a respectable way, by including my family.
Allah (SWT) does put each of his creations into trials but its not narrowed down to people who knowingly rebel against his commands, instead he wants each of us to prove that we deserve to go to Heaven and that He has reasons to put us in Hell!
We are not alone in this trial, all those people involved directly or indirectly are too, it is all based on how we tackle a situation, ignoring means another severe test, like adaptive tests. There’s a compulsory question you have to answer to pass!
quote:
Ibrahim says: My brother, this does not mean you have been given a certificate to have an intimate relationship with an unwed girl or even take her out without the consent of the father nor is that a valid pre marriage contract/arrangement . Since both the mothers are well aware of this, get them to resolve the issues, I am sure from the number of posts that you have been making on this thread, you would have already tried that. Yet being impatient on your own is not going to help anyone.
Maybe you can bring this matter to an Imam that the father of the bride is familiar with to negotiate on your behalf ( this is where a wali/ marriage broker is most useful) or to the jamath leaders if any.
Please explain me how does an engagement work in our Society? Its similar here, her mother, her uncle, her aunt, her sister’s, her brother, they all gave us the green signal, to stay in contact. I had the permission to do so. However, I do not want to justify that it was the right thing to do on my part, it wasn’t, I admit. But I intended to marry her and I was capable to do it at that time, but it’s her family that needed time to convince the dad. I knew not of the real intention of her mother though.
Imam, well, let’s be honest here, would you listen to an Imam if you were her father? What is the status of an Imam in our Society? What are the duties the Imam is obliged to fulfill? How many Imams are fulfilling theirs? I need to know!
quote:
Isn't it the father's responsibility to know what his daughter is upto?
Ibrahim says; The responsibility to look after daughters belongs to both parents yet daughters in particular are best looked after by the mother and IF the mother had hidden this affair than the father cannot be blamed can he?
Is this a valid excuse? Be honest please. 27 years of marriage and this guy doesn’t know what her wife and children are hiding from him since 4 years? And there’s nothing the father should be blamed for! You can say that for self-satisfaction! Yet you also believe that this father knows who is Mr. Best for her daughter! Nice try!
quote:
Isn't he supposed to know what's going on in his house?
Ibrahim says : when you become a father and depending on your income you may well learn how difficult it can be to manage a home where a wife and daughter has decided to keep things secret. Please do not find someone to blame , the blame has to born by those who have been hiding the matter, that would include you.
Lets not presume or predict about how I may be as a father, it won’t help us now, it’s a general issue you are referring to, let’s stay with this issue in particular. I am not finding someone to blame, I agree that the blame has to be borne by those who have been hiding the matter, it doesn’t include me because I have always intended to make it known to him, but her mother has always created obstacles for us. I want her dad to know the hidden truth before he makes his worst mistake.
quote:
Isn't the wife supposed to discuss about a proposal for their daughter with her husband?
Ibrahim says; Yes, that is why proposals are done by your parents visiting their parents and openly declaring your intent to marry their daughter and than hoping a favorable reply is received from their parents. Not by having relationships which could well lead into serious problems or by just seeking the permission from one of the parent.
My father expired 6 years ago, for me my mother represents both parents and she did want to meet her father, but her mother did not let that happen. I never intended of having a relationship that would have me in this situation in which I am.
*continued.. * **
[/quote]
continuation..
ibrahim quote:
When there's a problem, there's a cause, a point where the problem originates. Right? Where do you think that point is? in this scenario?
Ibrahim says: The problem is you had a verbal understanding with one parent and her daughter and you knew the other parent would be objecting to it but yet went on with an affair for 4 years, that was against your own conscience and against your own faith.
Meaning instead of preventing it you are now left to look for a cure after 4 years.
Yes my family had a verbal commitment with one parent, but how would have my family known about the real intentions of that parent? From an Islamic point of view the other parent had objections which were incorrect, Islam does not support those objections at all. My family was assured that this objection would not become an obstacle and that they will be able to convince the other parent. We did keep in contact after having such assurances from other members in the family. I do not know what you think that I should have prevented and why? Many people within her family knew it, it was never a secret. I’ve been looking for a cure since the beginning, just because I’ve posted this issue here now, doesn’t mean that I was sitting back and watching the show quietly. I never have.
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My friend Alhamdolellah I do try my best to implement Islam in my life as much as I can, and I have read Surat Al-Noor several times. The truth is that you cannot change the past, I did things which were inappropriate but should I keep on doing them? or should I rectify?
Ibrahim says; Brother, if life was just a piece of cake, why would we need to have guidance and Prophets ? So If you did wrong, the solutions are provided for you depending on the wrong you had done . The rectification of such wrongs is why you still have been given life on this planet. So rectify them within the precepts of right conduct. Remember, to understand a person you need to place yourself in their shoes .
So now try to imagine you had a daughter and you had certain intentions and suddenly you find your daughter and wife opposing you or have been keeping secrets from you. what would you do?
Now imagine , As a father
1) you may have intended to marry your daughter to someone you knew was best for her
2) you may feel that the proposal made by so and so is not worthy for various reasons that are best known to you.
Can anyone now pass judgment on you, without knowing what the problem is all about . ( your notion that is has to do with castes, could be just one of the problem or could be an excuse that he is using to refuse the proposal. )
Surely life isn’t a piece of cake, never has been, we have to go through all that testing and trials and have to work out for the solutions by following our textbook; Quran and Sunnat. That is the sole intention of our creator to know how faithful we are and do we have the courage to resist those who make us do what is wrong. Specially when we have to choose between our loved ones and Allah, its been made clear in the Quran that Children and fortune are nothing but mean’s of testing you.
I do agree with you that to understand a person you need to place yourself in their shoes.
I’ve been trying to do that, I have taken extra care in not playing it dirty unlike her mother. I’ve always worked out in a way so that the father doesn’t feel that members of his family will insult him if his daughter gets married to someone who doesn’t belong to their caste. I wanted all members to tell her father that it was fine with them if any such thing happens.
Imagine being the father
1) Best for her, when the father isn’t even aware of what’s going on in her life for the past 4 years. He surely knows what is best right? Based on what? He’s not been a good parent, and he knows what’s best for her daughter whom he threatens to kill if she disobeys. His intentions would be what? The same Caste, the best family, a guy who’s famous so that he can boast about him within his social circle. Where’s the concern of character?
Hazrat Abu Huraira (RA) reported that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) advised: 'When a man whose devotion to religion and good morals appeal to you, conveys to you a proposal for marriage, give the girl (who is your ward) in marriage to him. If you did not do so, a great mischief and big strife will spread in the earth.'
(mishkaat ul masabih)
2) My Proposal not worthy because of what? I do not have any reason that is in conflict with the points made clear to us. How can he make assumptions about someone without even seeing the person? Without having known the facts?
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Isn't it better to suffer here than to suffer after death?
Ibrahim says; My brother, If you feel that you should suffer for what you have done, then do ahead and suffer for it or do you fail to realize that you are already suffering?
Repentance is available for all human beings who seek with earnestness and rectify their conduct.
Seeking forgiveness for committing an offence involves the following
a) Remembrance of the offence
b) Hastening to Stop committing that offence
c) Cessation from such conduct forever
d) Correction If any
e) Feeling sorrow and remorse about it
f) To be done before death.
This is how one seeks and Insha Allah, Allah (swt) entertains all who are sincere in the seeking.
I was referring to the suffering of the other people involved in this issue. Why should other’s suffer because of those who lie and take advantage of their position, their authority. People who take serious issues lightly because it was their mistake. I wouldn’t let her mother get away with what she did, I will ask Allah for justice and I make sure that she gets punished for her lies. But at the same time I don’t think that other’s should suffer for their lives in this world just because we didn’t have the courage to stop her.
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For certain issues there is no repentance only punishment, So I am not left with an option here,
Ibrahim says: what ? If that was the case you would have died the moment you committed it. Allah (swt) says he is the most merciful, so have faith in him . the Only offence that Allah (swt) has openly declared He may not forgive is shirk ( associating partners with him) , even that is Allah (swt) absolute will and not for me or you to judge.
I would have died the moment I committed it? What are you assuming now? Please be specific, Please do not assume anything out of your weird imagination. Shirk, well following man made rules instead of Sharia is what? Aren’t we worshipping man instead of Allah? Isn’t this shirk too? It’s the same thing my friend, you may satisfy yourself by imagining what you think is right, but does that change anything? We all will face Allah(SWT) and surely he’ll judge us accordingly.
continued....
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There are things which are being hidden from the father, by many members of her family, commitment's made by many members on behalf of her father to my family, all this and even more,
Ibrahim says; hence you cannot blame the father altogether can you?
If the father does not want to listen to the truth, he is to be blamed, he’s more concerned about his ego and his own feelings rather than the people who’ll have to live a miserable life because of his attitude.
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should I wait till its too late or should I try to get the facts known to her dad (which eventually will), before he does something that can mess things up?
Ibrahim says; why not advice your father to talk to him or assign a representative to negotiate with the father and explain the seriousness of the problem.
I’ve mentioned about my father’s death. Because her father is not in Pakistan and is in a country where I do not have relatives and Visa is not easy, I asked my friend’s father to go and talk to her father. At that point we were under the impression that her mother would support us and I had mentioned this to my friend’s father and to our surprise, her mother was the first person to say that it was impossible. Her mother never took this matter seriously, she has had other intentions and from there on things have been very different. Her mother has since then made it even hard for us to approach the father, instead she even started playing dirty, I hope you know what I am saying here.
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Her father is worried about his insult right?
Ibrahim says; I do not know this and IF you have not been in contact with him directly, you may well be wrong altogether. Even if you are right , Islam does not have such barriers, hence it is now a matter of getting such fears to the side and putting the cards on the table. For that to happen, you need to get some elders to represent you .
Well I guess the previous answer will answer this too. But when my friend’s dad went and met her father, her father did mention this that “how do you think I can face my family members when they ask me why have I married my daughter to an Urdu Speaking boy? Is there a shortage of Jatt boys?”
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Isn't that in Allah's control?
Ibrahim says; Yes! All matters work according to Allah (swt) will but you rebelled against Him and you knowingly took the risk and He created you to test you on this planet . How then can you blame him for what you have done?
I rebelled against Allah (SWT)? Is it only me? My friend you are allegations are based on your assumptions and your imagination, and although you have doubts, but her parents are getting the benefit of the doubt here. May I know why?
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He might try to avoid that insult by forcing her daughter to marry someone else (may Allah forbid this to happen) other than me,
Ibrahim says; marriage is by consent only If the girl did not consent then they can be No marriage in Islamic terms, so try and get this across to her family in a respectful manner by using some elders to represent your family.
I did get this message across to them in a respectful manner, but they don’t pay heed to it. They think that because they are the parents, their daughter belongs to them and they can do whatever they like. We all know how parents put pressure on their children, they black mail you and threaten you, force you to obey them!
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but since he doesn't know the facts, what will happen if those facts unveil after the marriage? Can he then avoid the insult?
Ibrahim says; which means only the two of you are aware of what took place and it is now for the two of you to owe up and save yourselves and your families from disgrace in the future. The two of you are guilty and by saying that it may cause problem later on is not the issue, the issue is getting the matter resolved amicably, Such that everyone understands their mistakes and make amends for them.
This certainly doesn’t mean that only the two of us are aware of what took place. Her mother knows things better, her sister is aware, her aunts, her uncle, her cousin’s, her brothers, her friends, my family, there are too many people who know what’s been going on and its not just that me or her alone. The truth is that everyone is scared to admit their role in this situation. They all are scared because her mother has manipulated things in such a way that to other’s it seems that the mother is doing the right thing. But its the other way round, and I am not the only one who have this opinion about her mother, but there are other people within her family too, but no body wants to mess with her mother, because she is good in playing dirty. She’ll do anything to save herself, and I mean anything.
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That he hid facts about her daughter from her in-laws?
Ibrahim says; why are you worried about his sins when you should be worried about yours.
Well, what makes you think that I am not worried about mine? But many lives are going to get affected by this, not just her or me!
We don’t want to suffer because her dad has a problem raising her daughter in the way he should have.
We don’t want to suffer because her father has an attitude problem.
We don’t want to suffer because her mother thinks that this matter is all about winning and loosing and that she doesn’t want to loose.
We don’t want to suffer because they are heavily influenced by their culture.
We don’t want to suffer because her parents never cared about her properly.
We don’t want to suffer because her parents want to avoid their insult.
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This is not out of my wierd imaginations, but this is based on the facts, that are in the dark, but since so many people within my family and her family are aware, this is what is most likely to happen.
Ibrahim says; since you know this , it is time all of you owed up and presented that man the details of what has been going on behind his back.
I am trying to contact him through all the means that are available to me but, it seems that he doesn’t want to listen, her dad doesn’t have the courage to face the facts, he’s not been able assimilate all this. The last time I talked to him he threatened to kill me and cause harm to my family that we would never forget and then while I was speaking he slammed down the phone.
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I do not want other people to suffer because of my involvement in an issue.
Ibrahim says; Allah (swt) says……… on No one does He place a burden greater then they can bear! Do you believe in Him?
Can I deny? I don’t think so, I believe in him, but please tell me how do you apply it on me here, because I couldn’t think of a way it does.
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I have had a relationship with an un-wed girl for four years and it was wrong, but what is the solution from here?
Ibrahim says: Either work out the deal amicably by confessing to her parents of the feelings you two have for each other or make it public and accept your fate. That is the only Islamic way in such matters and what I might do , if I am in your shoes.
The issue here is not about love for one another , it is about what may have taken place in your relationship.
You have a misunderstanding on this one my friend, I know what you have hidden behind those words, but its not that. We do want to get married period. I don’t need to explain anything to her parents, they probably should be aware of this by now, her mother knows this extremely well and so do many others, but I know its hard for them to accept this, because they themselves might have never loved each other sincerely. I don’t want to satisfy myself with assumptions but her mother admits that we do have a sincere relationship. But she has to do what she has to do. She cannot let me win. Once they’ve said impossible, that means its impossible. This is the way it is, sadly people fear facing truth in this world and are not least concerned that Allah knows exactly what is going on, and I make sure that her family gets to know about what her mother did in order to avoid this marriage.
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I hate to imagine that a person is marrying a boy/girl and one fine day he/she finds out that that boy/girl actually has someone else on his/her mind and was married to him/her only because his/her parents forced him/her to.
Ibrahim says; Nothing new, millions are going throw such things, nowadays, even in western societies ( which is one of the reason for high divorce rate) all because they chose to follow their hearts and venture into things which had been forbidden and failed to acknowledge their own conscience and warnings from their Creator.
What a justification, millions are going through this, so I should go through it too! My friend this is not an excuse a true believer should have. You think that I should say this to Allah (SWT) when I’m questioned? Millions are doing other things too, should I do the same?
High divorce rate, what about high rate of honor killings in our societies? What about the rate of domestic violence in our society? Many people prefer to remain single even in our societies because of the sole reason that the new generation have lost the hope of finding a pure mind and heart, its nothing like what it used to be.
It is difficult for the young generation to get married soon because of the unjust demands of our parents. How can you save such a society from getting corrupted?
The same germ has infected our society too, the only difference being is that we got the disease later. And we are trying to hide ours, but we all know the truth.
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It may not make any difference to many people but to me, it does matter, I have a conscience which is not in a state of Coma, Alhamdolellah. I don't want that to happen in someone's life and that too because of me!
Ibrahim says; sadly I have to say you had failed your own conscience and your only option should be to bring out the truth of the matter to her father by both of you and face the music before the hammer drops. Running away with the girl without putting the cards on the table, would mean you have made yourself a fugitive too. May Allah (swt) guide you.
I have failed my own conscience, well, you have a judgement based on false assumptions already. This implies that either you yourself believe in a caste system and its rules, or you are a father of a son or daughter who has been involved in a similar relationship and you found it hard to assimilate the facts and instead you enforced your decisions on her/him. Here you are trying to satisfy yourself by blaming the other people who were your victims for your mistakes.
Never idealize or overanalyze your relationship. A growing relationship can only be nurtured by sincerity, honesty and genuineness
I believe in facts rather, I know my relationship better than anyone else in this world. How honest we are and how sincere we are and how genuine it is.
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My FIRST proposal did not reach the father… True! But proposals DID reach her father afterwards!
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Ibrahim says : so you knew you will have problems from the beginning….stretching it (uncertainty) for another 4 years would have only made it worse. don’t you think so?
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My family did trust her mother when she assured us that she would arrange a meeting with the girl’s father soon as she talks with him. What do you think my family should have done otherwise?
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Ibrahim says: You should have not gone against your own conscience , no matter what was on the table. Such are the trials man ( all human beings ) have to endure in order to affirm their worth.
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We certainly didn’t expect her to lie to us? Or should we have known about what was inside of her? Based on what? She is a Woman? She is weak and doesn’t have a proper mindset? Male Dominance…!
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Ibrahim says; It works this way…you entered their house through the back door and have been doing so for the past 4 years , you knew full well there was a front door and being a man who had faith in Allah (swt) and his commandments you should have made this clear to your own mother even. You seem to wholly place the problem on the parents when it is you and the girl in your immaturity who had gone against established Islamic norms and followed the immoral western norms
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Yes Islam teaches us to prevent an act that will harm us, and what am I doing here? Getting us close to hell fire? I am trying to do my best to follow and practice Islam in a Society that is heavily influenced by man made rules and assumptions.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; My brother, you are now diluting the issue, as far as I can understand you are claiming that you want to marry a girl and the father is objecting to it because he believes such and such…that was the issue. When you had an affair/relationship with a girl for 4 years ( that is not Islamic) and has nothing to do with why the father is objecting, does it?
[quote]
I clearly knew that I had to marry the girl in order to prevent corruption, and that is why I did try to sort out things in a respectable way, by including my family.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: here is where you have misunderstood your religion , we clearly know nothing except that we will all die sooner or later , all other things and matters in our life are “Insha Allah” only. We must do our best to achieve our desires through lawful means only. You might better understand this when you become a parent and your children start doing the things you had done on their own without consulting the person Allah (swt) appointed as their guardian.
[quote]
Allah (SWT) does put each of his creations into trials but its not narrowed down to people who knowingly rebel against his commands, instead he wants each of us to prove that we deserve to go to Heaven and that He has reasons to put us in Hell!
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Ibrahim says; exactly, that is why you are facing what ever will befall you likewise me and every other tom , dick and harry.
[quote]
We are not alone in this trial, all those people involved directly or indirectly are too, it is all based on how we tackle a situation, ignoring means another severe test, like adaptive tests. There’s a compulsory question you have to answer to pass!
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Ibrahim says; in other words you knowingly rebelled against your Lord, hence he placed you in this environment which you need to assess and do what is right.
[quote]
Please explain me how does an engagement work in our Society?
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Ibrahim says; Different societies may do this in a different manner but basically you send your reps to visit the family of the girls parents and reveal your intent. Once an intent is accepted, you may make a formal gathering to announce an intended marriage date and whatever agreements that both parties of the marriage contract want to agree to.
But if the first proposal is Not entertained by the head of the family, then the very thought of having a private association or any sort of communication with the girl is down right folly where one will only end up hurting themselves.
[quote]
Its similar here, her mother, her uncle, her aunt, her sister’s, her brother, they all gave us the green signal, to stay in contact. I had the permission to do so. However, I do not want to justify that it was the right thing to do on my part, it wasn’t, I admit. But I intended to marry her and I was capable to do it at that time, but it’s her family that needed time to convince the dad. I knew not of the real intention of her mother though.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Like I said you mistook the back door for the front door and man must always try to enter by the front door. At the same time since you claim so many people had given you the “green light” , get them to solve the problem and conduct the marriage ceremony as they agreed to.
[quote]
Imam, well, let’s be honest here, would you listen to an Imam if you were her father? What is the status of an Imam in our Society? What are the duties the Imam is obliged to fulfill? How many Imams are fulfilling theirs? I need to know!
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Ibrahim says; are you claiming you have knowledge of what the father will do and will not do? when I mentioned Imam, I trust that he was a respectable person in that society and he does not have to be a saint nor the judge. Are you claiming that all imams have gone astray and do not know what is their responsibility?
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Is this a valid excuse? Be honest please. 27 years of marriage and this guy doesn’t know what her wife and children are hiding from him since 4 years?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; If someone you trust and live with for 27 years had decided to hide certain things from you , you don’t expect that person to be aware of them do you? It looks as though your hate for this man is clouding your sense of judgment.
You mentioned earlier, the father was informed later and he had refused ( he may or may not have consulted his daughter and wife, I won’t be able assume such things) , than why would he be concerned about the problem when it could be that he has already decided on the issue . Don’t tell me you went to his house and picked up his daughter in his presence for the past 4 years ?
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And there’s nothing the father should be blamed for! You can say that for self-satisfaction! Yet you also believe that this father knows who is Mr. Best for her daughter! Nice try!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says. Brother, I am not for or against you. I am being impartial and trying to show you what you may not have seen. I cannot judge a person based on what you or any others may convey in public forums. I know that only Allah (swt) knows best and IF Allah (swt) has seen it fit to place you in this problem, who can remove it?
As I advised earlier prayer, patience and penitence can help like no others can.
But blaming the father when it was you who had wronged him ( in his view) , is not the right thing, is it?
[quote]
I am not finding someone to blame, I agree that the blame has to be borne by those who have been hiding the matter, ** it doesn’t include me because ** I have always intended to make it known to him, but her mother has always created obstacles for us. I want her dad to know the hidden truth before he makes his worst mistake.
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Ibrahim says; my brother, If you consider yourself blameless because you had intention to reveal the truth, is rather naïve. When you become a party to an offence, you are an accomplice in that offence. Here you are now placing that fault squarely on the father and also on her mother ( when you say “her mother has always created obstacles for us” )
This does not make sense.
** Whoever can protest and does not is an accomplice in that act **
[quote]
My father expired 6 years ago, for me my mother represents both parents and she did want to meet her father, but her mother did not let that happen. I never intended of having a relationship that would have me in this situation in which I am.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; So it was Allah’s will and you being the head of your family had to select a few reps to present your proposal to the father who is the head of that family not delay it for 4 years only to put yourself in this mess. .
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Yes my family had a verbal commitment with one parent, but how would have my family known about the real intentions of that parent?
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Ibrahim says; How would have anyone known the real intentions of anyone? Are you now saying that the mother plotted against you and her daughter from the start?
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My family was assured that this objection would not become an obstacle and that they will be able to convince the other parent. We did keep in contact after having such assurances from other members in the family. I do not know what you think that I should have prevented and why?
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Ibrahim says; This is simple to understand, you went to the secretary of the president and got a verbal approval for your illegal occupation of state property. And the secretary assured you that he will get a written consent from the president, failing which you will get evicted and it was your duty to make sure this was approved by the president before you start constructing you million dollar villa on it and since the president failed to approve it , how can you complain?
[quote]
Many people within her family knew it, it was never a secret. I’ve been looking for a cure since the beginning, just because I’ve posted this issue here now, doesn’t mean that I was sitting back and watching the show quietly. I never have.
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Ibrahim says; Now I am not telling you have failed and a loser in life, I am merely telling you to look at the other side of the coin and also how you can resolve the issue by approaching the father and laying the cards on the table and letting his own daughter and mother reveal how they were indeed a party to this whole affair.
[quote]
Surely life isn’t a piece of cake, never has been, we have to go through all that testing and trials and have to work out for the solutions by following our textbook; Quran and Sunnat. That is the sole intention of our creator to know how faithful we are and do we have the courage to resist those who make us do what is wrong. Specially when we have to choose between our loved ones and Allah, its been made clear in the Quran that Children and fortune are nothing but mean’s of testing you.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; exactly.
[quote]
I do agree with you that to understand a person you need to place yourself in their shoes. I’ve been trying to do that, I have taken extra care in not playing it dirty unlike her mother. I’ve always worked out in a way so that the father doesn’t feel that members of his family will insult him if his daughter gets married to someone who doesn’t belong to their caste. I wanted all members to tell her father that it was fine with them if any such thing happens.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; I cannot understand why the mother would play dirty? Mothers by nature are more caring towards their daughters (Birds of feather kind of thing) and children mostly care for mothers first than only fathers. (personal case studies and observation)
[quote]
1) Best for her, when the father isn’t even aware of what’s going on in her life for the past 4 years. He surely knows what is best right? Based on what? He’s not been a good parent, and he knows what’s best for her daughter whom he threatens to kill if she disobeys. His intentions would be what? The same Caste, the best family, a guy who’s famous so that he can boast about him within his social circle. Where’s the concern of character?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; No two persons are alike and what you may agree with today can be rejected by you tomorrow, it all has to do with circumstances. Now as I have said there is NO caste in Islam so the problem you are facing is to do with culture and tradition. Some people follow traditions and that is why they can be creating problems for Islam.
** The key to resolving this is to establish the fact that Islam does not have such traditions nor encourage such traditions. **
[quote]
2) My Proposal not worthy because of what? I do not have any reason that is in conflict with the points made clear to us. How can he make assumptions about someone without even seeing the person? Without having known the facts?
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Ibrahim says; So why have you not shown yourself to him in person and why have you not revealed the facts to him in person would be the thing you need to answer to yourself?
[quote]
I was referring to the suffering of the other people involved in this issue. Why should other’s suffer because of those who lie and take advantage of their position, their authority. People who take serious issues lightly because it was their mistake. I wouldn’t let her mother get away with what she did, I will ask Allah for justice and I make sure that she gets punished for her lies. But at the same time I don’t think that other’s should suffer for their lives in this world just because we didn’t have the courage to stop her.
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Ibrahim sorry…you are drifting away from your original stance, that being the father was the cause of the problem , now it seems the mother was also a cause…I am amazed at the problem you seem to be having.
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I would have died the moment I committed it? What are you assuming now? Please be specific, Please do not assume anything out of your weird imagination.
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Ibrahim says; My answer was based on your assertion that there was No forgiveness for you.
What I am saying is that, If Allah (swt) had not intended forgiveness to his creations He would have punished them immediately the moment they commit an error and be done with.
[quote]
Shirk, well following man made rules instead of Sharia is what?
[/quote]
Each category of sins has its own appropriate punishments and as I wrote earlier, only shirk is considered unforgivable by the Creator in many scriptures.
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Aren’t we worshipping man instead of Allah? Isn’t this shirk too?
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Ibrahim says: why would a Muslim be worshipping a man? Have you been worshipping a man?
[quote]
It’s the same thing my friend, you may satisfy yourself by imagining what you think is right, but does that change anything? We all will face Allah(SWT) and surely he’ll judge us accordingly.
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Ibrahim says; You lost me here.
** Avoid what is forbidden and do what is permitted. It was only their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with the prophets that destroyed those who were before you **
[quote]
If the father does not want to listen to the truth, he is to be blamed, he’s more concerned about his ego and his own feelings rather than the people who’ll have to live a miserable life because of his attitude.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Agreed ! as stubborn as his views may be, how have you helped by not presenting that facts to him directly ? People may have adopted traditions as their way of life, it is not going to go away just because others may object to it, it will only be destroyed by an information drive that objectively reveals the truth about it and that will take quite some time. Take the hindu caste system for example even after many thousands of years and government regulations concerning it, it is still practiced because it is part of their religion but in the case of Islam, Islam does not enjoin such practices , hence what certain tribes may practice will be rectified as we progress insha Allah.
[quote]
I’ve mentioned about my father’s death. Because her father is not in Pakistan and is in a country where I do not have relatives and Visa is not easy, I asked my friend’s father to go and talk to her father. At that point we were under the impression that her mother would support us and I had mentioned this to my friend’s father and to our surprise, her mother was the first person to say that it was impossible.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; well, very complicated indeed. So how do you assume this marriage is going to take place if both parents are not in favor of your proposal ?
[quote]
Her mother never took this matter seriously, she has had other intentions and from there on things have been very different. Her mother has since then made it even hard for us to approach the father, instead she even started playing dirty, I hope you know what I am saying here.
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Ibrahim says; I don’t get this , first you claimed the mother and her relatives gave the green light and later the mother had been playing dirty . If that was the case you had ample time to be cautious and fear for the worse and NOT get involved with the girl . After all when you get married they become your in laws. You cannot have in law who are out to harm you, can you?
[quote]
Well I guess the previous answer will answer this too. But when my friend’s dad went and met her father, her father did mention this that “how do you think I can face my family members when they ask me why have I married my daughter to an Urdu Speaking boy? Is there a shortage of Jatt boys?”
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Ibrahim says; This is a point of view that he is giving , but if many of his relations , family members ( as you said earlier) had no opposition to it ( they giving the green light in the first place as you mentioned earlier) , than there is no such problem , is there?
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I rebelled against Allah (SWT)? Is it only me? My friend you are allegations are based on your assumptions and your imagination, and although you have doubts, but her parents are getting the benefit of the doubt here. May I know why?
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Ibrahim says; My Brother when you say you have done wrong , when you knew full well it was wrong, it amounts to rebelling against Allah (swt) sorry I was unable to explain this earlier. Now, in this scenario, it is you alone giving the info on who done what , If I took that as “the whole truth” I would have wronged my own soul. Islam enjoins that all matters be verified where there is room for doubts , than that should be clarified, hence I am trying to be impartial by trying to present to you the other end of possibilities not siding with you or anyone else for you to assess the situation and act accordingly.
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I did get this message across to them in a respectful manner, but they don’t pay heed to it. They think that because they are the parents, their daughter belongs to them and they can do whatever they like. We all know how parents put pressure on their children, they black mail you and threaten you, force you to obey them!
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Ibrahim says; This is natural in one sense since the parent does this because they have lived their lives and have endured what they do not want their children to endure. It is more a safety mechanism but for current generation it has become an obstacle to their freedom. It may not always be ideal or good but the responsibility for the children entrusted to parents will be questioned by Allah (swt) .
Children must consult their parents and value their point of view which would normally be in their best interest but in this case, it has to do with tradition and that is where the problem becomes deadly. I believe a number of verses from the Qur’an have already by quoted with this regards for to understand clearly what Islam teaches and what Islam forbids. .
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This certainly doesn’t mean that only the two of us are aware of what took place. Her mother knows things better, her sister is aware, her aunts, her uncle, her cousin’s, her brothers, her friends, my family, there are too many people who know what’s been going on and its not just that me or her alone. The truth is that everyone is scared to admit their role in this situation. They all are scared because her mother has manipulated things in such a way that to other’s it seems that the mother is doing the right thing. But its the other way round, and I am not the only one who have this opinion about her mother, but there are other people within her family too, but no body wants to mess with her mother, because she is good in playing dirty. She’ll do anything to save herself, and I mean anything.
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Ibrahim says; well leave the mother aside and approach the father with the facts and let him now decide as to what he wants…do this directly if possible accompanied with some elders so that all of them stand as witness for you.
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Well, what makes you think that I am not worried about mine? But many lives are going to get affected by this, not just her or me! We don’t want to suffer because her dad has a problem raising her daughter in the way he should have.
We don’t want to suffer because her father has an attitude problem.
We don’t want to suffer because her mother thinks that this matter is all about winning and loosing and that she doesn’t want to loose.
We don’t want to suffer because they are heavily influenced by their culture.
We don’t want to suffer because her parents never cared about her properly.
We don’t want to suffer because her parents want to avoid their insult.
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Ibrahim says: My brother…Are you in doubt as to how Allah (swt) will judge? Or do you suppose that anyone will escape from his judgment? So resolve the problem that you are facing by doing what is possible that can rectify your current problem.
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I am trying to contact him through all the means that are available to me but, it seems that he doesn’t want to listen, her dad doesn’t have the courage to face the facts, he’s not been able assimilate all this. The last time I talked to him he threatened to kill me and cause harm to my family that we would never forget and then while I was speaking he slammed down the phone.
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Ibrahim says; well, that says its all or do you think, the problem will seize to exist if you eloped ? My point being get some others to expose the facts to him or give up altogether, if you felt his threat against your family was real. No one can change a man who has become so engulfed in his pride, such that he will kill others.
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Can I deny? I don’t think so, I believe in him, but please tell me how do you apply it on me here, because I couldn’t think of a way it does.
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Ibrahim says; it mean you will survive immaterial of the circumstances that you have placed yourself in, when you acted within the precepts of acceptable norms and prevailing conditions .
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You have a misunderstanding on this one my friend, I know what you have hidden behind those words, but its not that. We do want to get married period. I don’t need to explain anything to her parents, they probably should be aware of this by now, her mother knows this extremely well and so do many others, but I know its hard for them to accept this, because they themselves might have never loved each other sincerely. I don’t want to satisfy myself with assumptions but her mother admits that we do have a sincere relationship. But she has to do what she has to do. She cannot let me win. Once they’ve said impossible, that means its impossible. This is the way it is, sadly people fear facing truth in this world and are not least concerned that Allah knows exactly what is going on, and I make sure that her family gets to know about what her mother did in order to avoid this marriage.
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Ibrahim says; I don’t know if I read you correctly but are you saying vengeance is the way?
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What a justification, millions are going through this, so I should go through it too!
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Ibrahim says; I am saying that this is a reality and cannot be changed for by it, many are being tested by Allah (swt) . If all parties agreed with each what trails will there be for mankind?
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My friend this is not an excuse a true believer should have. You think that I should say this to Allah (SWT) when I’m questioned? Millions are doing other things too, should I do the same?
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Ibrahim says; You seem to be missing the essence of life on this planet, all this are meant to be your trials and you have to face it just like others have been facing it , if you learnt to be forgiving and kind you may have achieved a greater strength but if you seek for vengeance that would be to your loss if it was not appropriate, in any case Allah (swt) does not place a burden on mankind that they cannot bear.
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High divorce rate, what about high rate of honor killings in our societies?
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Ibrahim says; are you going to become apart of it? Or will you be able to correct the problem ?
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What about the rate of domestic violence in our society?
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Ibrahim says; I keep getting the feeling you are more concerned about many other issues rather than what seems to have plagued you. Just consider this….if all people on this planet were in complete agreement with each other, what sort of trial can this planet be?
I am not condoning any evil, hate or violence , but trying to assure you we are only here be tested in this planet.
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I have failed my own conscience, well, you have a judgement based on false assumptions already. This implies that either you yourself believe in a caste system and its rules, or you are a father of a son or daughter who has been involved in a similar relationship and you found it hard to assimilate the facts and instead you enforced your decisions on her/him. Here you are trying to satisfy yourself by blaming the other people who were your victims for your mistakes.
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Ibrahim says; my my, hope you got it all out of your chest. What I am conveying to you is based on what you have been trying to convey but at no time am I judging you or for that matter anyone else. I am providing another perspective for you to consider and evaluate your situation. but don’t make baseless assertions out of this exchanges.
** Actions will be judged by their intentions and every action will be judged accordingly. **
Ibrahim
Thank you for your time, I think that you have to read all my previous posts in order to know the other things that you find amazing about mother and daughter relationship.
I had approached the main gate and I did go inside and had a meeting with members of her family, but I was not allowed to meet the father.
First proposal was sent within ONE year, stop repeating that "stretching it (uncertainty) for another 4 years". None of us can predict the future? Ofcourse we are UNCERTAIN about what's coming up! We can't just give up hope? What are you trying to prove?
I have clearly explained the events that happened but it seems to me that you do understand the issue, but you yourself have a strong ego, and its hard for you to accept the actual events, the facts.
You keep giving the benefit of each doubt to the parents, I am not surprised, an average person would react the same way you have.
But the truth is that IF her father and mother had brought her up in the way they should have, this might not have happened.
You may satisfy yourself by blaming me and her for everything, but its the parents responsibility, to know about what their children are doing. Don't give lame excuses about the work load and burden of responsibilities, you had mentioned the verse about the burden put on an individual by Allah (swt). Her father and mother both have failed in their trials and now that they know, they want to force their daughter to marry someone else so that they can quench the thirst of their thirsty ego. Its very hard for parents to accept their mistakes in front of their children, but they made mistakes and it is them who should suffer, not the children.
You quoted verses from Sura Al Nur (Light) remember? Its the parents responsibility to tell this to their children, the parents are obliged to educate their children about how life should be lived according to Islam, but when they fail to do so, their children are confused, and it is this confusion that causes problems. Problem in our society is that we are so heavily influenced by our Culture that we hardly have time to learn and practice Islam.
Where were the parents when all of this was happening? What were they doing?
It might be easy for her parents to ignore everything... but it sure isn't easy for us.
Anyways you please carry on being impartial.
Ibrahim says. Brother, I am not for or against you. I am being impartial and trying to show you what you may not have seen. I cannot judge a person based on what you or any others may convey in public forums.
Ibrahim says. But blaming the father when it was you who had wronged him ( in his view) , is not the right thing, is it?
aren't both of this written by you?
Ibrahim says: here is where you have misunderstood your religion , we clearly know nothing except that we will all die sooner or later , all other things and matters in our life are “Insha Allah” only. We must do our best to achieve our desires through lawful means only. You might better understand this when you become a parent and your children start doing the things you had done on their own without consulting the person Allah (swt) appointed as their guardian.
The do's and don'ts are clearly defined by Allah (swt)! Parents have limits too, they can't make rules of their own! Its transgression! and for your information it is forbidden too!
You shouldn't Oppress, neither should you be Oppressed!
ONLY IF her PARENTS had not rebelled against their Lord! Do you think that this problem would have existed? Be honest!
Lets get to the bottom of this! If she had been brought up by her parents like how Allah wanted them to. The way that Islam teaches us. Would we have known each other like we know now?
Shirk, well following man made rules instead of Sharia is what?
Each category of sins has its own appropriate punishments and as I wrote earlier, only shirk is considered unforgivable by the Creator in many scriptures.
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Aren’t we worshipping man instead of Allah? Isn’t this shirk too?
Ibrahim says: why would a Muslim be worshipping a man? Have you been worshipping a man?
let me put this in easy English for you.
If someone is following a family tradition (man-made rules) when Islam (ALLAH's message) has clearly defined that, that thing is not right; even still that person continues to follow that family tradition (which is a man's message ofcourse), when he knows that Islam (Allah's message) clearly considers it illegal; ISN'T THIS SHIRK??