Marriage dilemmas

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Okay, I wanted to post this topic, so I especially came back online, otherwise I wanna sleep. Anyway, its itching me, so I’ll post it.

In Islam, you need 4 witnesses to convict a person for adultery and deliver their punishment.

Now, 4 witnesses is a lot and one of the logical claims made in defense of this requirement, is that Allah does not want people to start witch-hunts for political reasons. So He has made it harder for muslims to figure out on who is cheating who. Plus with the legal examples of the sharia practiced in the caliphs’ times was that if one of the witnesses has a history of lying, then their testimony will not hold up so well in court. The argument I’ve understood is that adultery is something seriously criminal and the punishment for it in the afterlife is intense, but that God would rather deal with the issues Himself on judgement day than take the risk of starting up unnecessary witchhunts. If it was 1 witness or no witnesses, then people would start pointing fingers at each other just to get their enemies executed, and the law is not as effective that way.

Enough with my ramblings.

What I want to know, is that if a woman has reason to believe that her husband might be cheating on her, or if she’s caught him speaking romantically or flirting with another girl, or if she’s seeing signs, like you know, ladies garments across his office (whatever, there are plenty of such little signs that ladies look for when trying to figure out if their hubby is cheating on them)…and if all that is accompanied with emotional abandonment - like she feels her husband doesn’t care for her, or he is paying more attention to outside women than her, etc,

does she have a right to ask for a khula (or divorce or whatever)? And can she actually be granted one?

The same goes vice versa, if a husband felt his wife was cheating on him.

Mind you, there are just some signs to go on, but not a full 4 witnessses witnessing a sexual love-making scene.

2

Re: Marriage dilemmas

^ whoever thinks that Islam needs 4 witnesses watching a love-making session to be able to stand as witness against a crime is definitely out of his/her brains....

watching such a thing silently (and/or letting it to complete) without making an effort to stop it is a crime in itself....

i repeat for the hundredth time, the witnesses r not required for having seen the man and woman indulge in the activity....
otherwise no man/woman on this planet cud ever be tried for adultery/rape....
except for the rare idiots who forget to hide themselves while doing it....

3

Re: Marriage dilemmas

I believe there was one case, where 4 witnesses testified against this one guy they thought was cheating on his wife. They saw hints of him hanging out with other women, etc, but it wasn't enough to the court. They even saw the lovemaking scene out of a window looking into the window of this guy's place. Although they saw the act taking place, there was one of the 4 witnesses who was not sure if he saw another woman's face and could not say that he was not having sex with his own wife (the other 3 men had testified that they did see the lady's face, and it was not the man's own wife, it was another woman). The judge dismissed the case, since it didn't meet the 4 witnesses requirement.

This is a story, that I've heard numerous times and at different masjids as well. Which hadith its in, etc, I really don't know, but it was after the Prophet's time and during one of the caliph's times (I think). Maaf karna, but I don't have the exact source of this story. However, its one that is a common one that is told. I'm surprised you haven't heard of this?

Rishta Philosophies
4

Re: Marriage dilemmas

^ never even heard something like that....

but think over it logically, how many ppl do u think wud actually be seen by four witnesses while doing it????
maybe in a place like europe and america it cud be possible, but in conservative islamic societies, i dont think many ppl wud leave any possibility of anyone sneaking upon them....

5

Re: Marriage dilemmas

Armughal, I have definitely heard of that story, and I doubt people in masjids are making it up, because I've heard it quoted by more than one Imam. They usually don't start reciting textbook citations when they do sermons, so its hard for me to track it down. I think that one of the men who claimed, in that story, that this man was cheating, was actually Abu Hurraira. I remember reading an anti-Abu Hurraira article, and I think they mentioned that story in it. Or maybe that's a different story. Not sure.

Regardless, can you pull a Quranic verse that says if you have 4 witnesses that have seen a guy talk to another girl, that this is enough to accuse them of adultery?

6

Re: Marriage dilemmas

^ u jump to illogical conclusions too quick....
unless u dont cure that in u, i dont think u'd be able to understand such sensitive issues....

7

Re: Marriage dilemmas

Armughal, there has to be clear cut requirements. Islam needs 4 witnesses. If its not to see the actual sex scene, then WHAT actions between an unwedded couple is enough to land them punishments?

I might see a piece of ladies underwear in my husband's office. But maybe someone put it there to frame him. Is it fair for him to be beheaded or hung by the government for adultery, when he never committed it?

The punishment for adultery is heavy, and therefore, there needs to be lots of proof that adultery took place.

Personally, I think if you can catch them on videotape these days, that's enough. You don't need 4 witnesses standing in the room when it happened. You can just have 4 people watch the tape, and there you have 4 witnesses. So its much easier to convict these days, armughal. Its not like no one out there will get convicted for adultery.

Don't bring in rape, its a separate issue which does not require 4 witnesses. For that, you go on the girl's reputation, in the event there is no medical evidence. Or you go on medical evidence, if you have it. Simple DNA test can tell you that a girl is not lying when she's accused her rapist.

y do good girls always go for bad boys?
8

Re: Marriage dilemmas

Ok this a little off topic but it also relate to the topic some what.

Last time when I visited my village (some where in Pakistan). I was riding bike with my cousin and we passed a movie rental shop. There was a girls college about half a mile down from that shop. My cousin told me that the guy who used to work at that movie rental shop got hooked with one of the girl who used to go to that college and she used to pass by that movie rental shop while on her way to college and somehow this guy got hooked with her.

They started dating (chup chupa kay...keep reading). There was a room above the shop which this guy used for resting or sleeping or what ever after work. So the girl started missing her classes from college. She would miss her classes and go to the room above that shop, than the guy would close the shop or call his friend to look after and he would go upstairs and join her. They would have sex (yes sex for sure...keep reading) and all the fun.

The people around started suspecting and they thought something is going on (daal mai kuch kaala hai...well it was something white not kaala ;) ). Of course there were other shops around, that was not the only shop. So people suspected something is wrong and they reported to the local police (which I think was a wise thing instead of taking the matter in their hand or punchait).

Here comes our cleaver "hawaldaar", it was quite interesting how he "caught them rungay hathooN". By the way the guy (who was dating this college girl) used to play xxx movie on vcr while doing her.

So one fine afternoon "hawaldaar sahib" hide himself along with his other police men in one of the shop and started waiting for the right time so he can catch them "rungay hathooN". Finally the girl showed up and she went to the room upstairs. After few minutes the guy came out, closing the shop and went upstair. Hawaldaar sahib waited for a while so the "couple" could have enough time to undress and start "hala gula". Finally hawaldaar sahib raided the room, they broke the door and went right into the room. What the hawaldaar saw was that the xxx movie was on and the guy was on top of the girl "scr*wing".

They took the guy to jail and handed the girl to her parents. I asked my cousin what happened after that. He said he's not sure about the girl but the guy came out of jail after spending few years (not sure how many).

Now this is a true story I am not making up or anything. Now going by PCG post shouldn't that guy be hanged or something? I was really surprised at the END RESULT.

P.S. I am sorry if I have used any words that may have offended some people. Sorry!!!

9

Re: Marriage dilemmas

^ :smack:

10

Re: Marriage dilemmas

that's not adultery, it's fornication which is punishable by i think 80 ? lashes for both the girl and the man.

11

Re: Marriage dilemmas

why not have the simple criminal standard of proof that is applied throughout the world to all crimes? i.e. beyond reasonable doubt. it doesn't matter whether they've got a videotape or 4 witnesses or DNA evidence. if the jury/judge is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt, then that's all that is required.
i've never understood the need to have exactly four male witnesses. In Ancient Arabia, they probably didn't have DNA evidence or other sophisticated forms of proof.
I've also never understood why the evidence of a man has greater weight than a woman's.

12

Re: Marriage dilemmas

:CareBear: *teaser. *

My GS crushes
13

Re: Marriage dilemmas

DNA can be used as a supporting evidence in Islam/islamic court however, it cannot be considered a witness because DNA does not have the ability to tell us if the persons committing adultury did it willingly or unwillingly!

14

Re: Marriage dilemmas

ak47: There is no such thing as unwilling adultery. If the sexual act is unwilling from one party, then that is now A RAPE. Doesn't matter if the victim is married or unmarried, or if the criminal is married or not. And how can you say DNA is supporting evidence, when its the most CERTAIN technique there is? Even more so than 4 men?

wunderkind: I have the same thoughts, but that's not this topic. I just want to know whether if a female is just unhappy in her marriage because she feels like her husband doesn't love her or care for her anymore and is exhibiting this regularly in her behavior (as I've described), then does she have a right to get out of the marriage, and not be emotionally abused in her own home?

As to the story given in this thread, about the video shop wala...if both were unmarried people, then that's fornication, not adultery. If the shop wala was married, then the punishment should have been more severe.

AQ
15

Re: Marriage dilemmas

I think you should read what i said and try again.

16

Re: Marriage dilemmas

"if the persons committing adultury did it willingly or unwillingly!"

You wrote this. I repeat again, you can't have unwilling adultery. Its not adultery anymore, its rape.

Give me an example of where you think a DNA test would fall short. Like a detailed example, so I see what you mean.

17

Re: Marriage dilemmas

DNA cannot tell you if the woman or man was raped or had sex with both parties agreeing to it, it is simple don't make it look more difficult than it is.

It is nothing more than a supporting evidence.

18

Re: Marriage dilemmas

Or those who admit to it. Is there precedence in the hadith for a punishment w/o four witnesses or without a confession?

The Oath of Lian is another complexity that used to be factored in...

19

Re: Marriage dilemmas

What is Oath of Lian?

ak47, to test for rape, there is a medical procedure done. I don't know it in detail, because I'm sure trained doctors know it better, but I do know they look for semen samples, and they look for bruises or signs of struggle. Rape is a very vigorous act, and there are usually characteristic bruises, that you wont see in an act of willing adultery. I think that's enough evidence for rape, and usually, there will be further evidence, like the girl never knew the guy or she didn't like the guy and want to have anything to do with him, or witnesses admitting that she was not in love with him, etc. And of course, in a rape, the victim usually says she's been raped.

Its not hard to diffrentiate a rape and willing adultery in a court of law. The tricky situations are only in Koby-type cases, where a woman lured a guy in and then said no last minute once she gets herself into a compromising situation. Then its hard to prove if it was really forced sex or if it was the girl trying to trick a guy and then make money off him by pulling a lawsuit. Those cases are rare, and of course, can be treated on a case by case basis.

Otherwise, I don't see how DNA and a medical checkup will give you a less certain answer. You can have 4 witnesses, but each may have their own bias, and they may each think the girl is enjoying it while it may actually be a rape taking place. Bruises would tell you otherwise.

20

Re: Marriage dilemmas

bruises, enjoying? now you putting assumptions into the equation it is a good thing your not a judge is'nt it!