Major differences between British and French Muslims

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he Integration Of Muslims In Europe

  Oxford Analytica, 02.24.09, 06:00 AM EST **France and the U.K. have varying success with economic, political and social integration.**

                                  As Muslims are the fastest-growing group in Europe (by 2025, Muslims will make up 10% of Europe's population, from 4% today), it is important that they are socially, politically and economically integrated. If not, the result will be the human and economic waste of unemployment, bitterness and possibly further radicalization and violence.

Principled approach. The U.K. approach to its Muslims has been accommodationist, bringing senior Muslims into policymaking and passing anti-hate laws on religion. France has been integrationist, maintaining secularism as a principle, banning religious symbols in schools and adopting state-driven consultations with Muslims.
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In both countries, these approaches had long histories, being essentially the extension of old policies and practices for migrants or ethnic minorities:
–France has the longest experience of migration in Europe and accordingly the most-developed framework for incorporation. French integration theory and policy are based on a strong definition of ‘Frenchness’ as a political not an ethnic concept. Becoming French requires accepting French values (notably secularism) and wherever possible relegating expressions of difference to the private sphere.
–The United Kingdom was taken by surprise by postwar immigration. The framework that policymakers developed in effect replicated colonial practices of indirect rule: negotiations with their official representatives governed relations with ethnic minority communities. Without a strong conception of Britishness, integration was left to local councils, which manage most U.K. integration policy; national policy was limited to tackling race-based discrimination.
Integration results. There are two standards against which the incorporation of Muslims in Europe can be judged: economic (how people are doing in terms of earnings and employment); and attitudinal (how people feel).
In both France and the United Kingdom, Muslims’ economic integration has been poor. In both, unemployment is high (above 20% and sometimes approaching 40%) among Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and North Africans. Earnings are also weak: According to 2000 data, male Bangladeshis were earning about three-quarters the average wage.
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As regards public attitudes, a more complex picture emerges, according to Pew data gathered in 2006, depending on the group examined:

    --Non-Muslim French. Most French people were particularly positive toward French Muslims, viewing them as generous and honest; a large minority saw them as tolerant.

–Non-Muslim Britons. Attitudes toward U.K. Muslims were less positive, but better than among many other Europeans: most Britons viewed Muslims as honest, although only a minority saw them as generous and tolerant.
–French Muslims. Most French Muslims viewed non-Muslims in France as respectful of women, generous, tolerant and honest (but not devout); only a minority viewed them as arrogant, violent, greedy, immoral or fanatical. Equally importantly, almost 80% of French Muslims support secularism, one of the Republic’s intellectual cornerstones.
–U.K. Muslims. Attitudes toward non-Muslim Britons were thoroughly negative: Clear majorities viewed them as selfish, arrogant, violent, greedy and immoral, and a substantial minority as fanatical. Only a minority of U.K. Muslims viewed their fellow citizens as respectful of women, tolerant, honest or devout. However, a majority thought non-Muslim Britons were generous.
–Islam and modernity. Finally, U.K. Muslims were the most likely in Europe to see a basic conflict between Islam and modernity–47%. The figure for French Muslims was 28%.

Where a common, non-religious identity unites Muslims and non-Muslims, the result is better public attitudes and a shared sense of a national project. Where religious divisions are emphasized, the result is mistrust. However, cultural integration is only one part of the equation. Economic integration, whereby Muslims enter work, earn wages and pay taxes just like their fellow citizens, is equally important; in this, both the United Kingdom and France have failed.

Notice how the negative perceptions of UK Muslims is fed off by their own prejudices. :rolleyes:

The Integration Of Muslims In Europe - Forbes.com

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Re: Major differences between British and French Muslims

uk muslims and especially pakistanis (who are probably the majority muslims there) are an embarrassment to me, personally. The country uk itself has a very backwards culture when it comes to race relations, from what I've felt.

question is, why are they so backwards? if pakistani muslims can do well in a state like texas, why not the uk?

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Re: Major differences between British and French Muslims

^the feeling is mutual.

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are all pakistani immigrants created equal?
comparing urban, educated, professional pakistanis of educated backgrounds with rural, illiterate, unskilled labour is the issue. Its a politically incorrect yet accurate issue. This was seen in middle east as well when the initial expats who were professionals were outnumbered by unskilled labour , and those were the people who then drove the image of Pakistanis in middle east. It was very evident in KSA where the image of Pakisanis from the 70's to the 80's went down the crapper.

UK is actually doing very well in terms of race relations based on what it hs to deal with, is it perfect, no, but is it better than other places yep. As far as france goes, majority of immigrants there are not rural pakistanis, but algerians, moroccans, tunisians and in general are more progressive than the rural pakistanis. But even then whatever people's perceptions may be, the stats about unemployment and wage levels show that when the rubber meets the road, those perception differences really did not do much.

Kabhi Kabhi....
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Interesting. Are you implying that most of the Pakistanis in the UK are pretty much from rural or uneducated backgrounds? If that is so, then that is why I probably feel they do not like to assimilate as well as Pakistanis have done in the US, or even Canada for that matter (although I've never stayed in Canada that long to observe).

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I am not just implying that, I am stating that as a fact that a very large percentage of pakistanis in UK are from such a background, when you go to cities like bradford, by some estimates over 70% of the pakistani origin ppl there are from a rural/uneducated background. That demographic has a the much higher percentage incidence of poor performance in academics etc. crimes, gangs and what nots (remember bradford riots). Birmingham which has about 10% of its total population from Pakistan also has majority of them from a rural background.

The unfortunate part of this is that the next generations of many of these people really did not get out of that mentality and have become desi ghettos, without teh family support for education, focus on doing whatever odd jobs they know. and I dont mean to knock either bluecollar stuff or corner shops and butchers etc, but then the viuew is you dont need a college degree to do that, education takes a back seat.

look at desi community issues, vast majority will be seen in that denmographic and its next generations, forced marriages, honor killing, included

Canada has seen some of that in the last 10-15 years, teh ratio within pakistani population demographic has been altered, what the impact of that will be is unknown but still most of the people came on skilled labour and have some concern for education, the assyleees, many fake bring a diff anglr though.

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Re: Major differences between British and French Muslims

^That's true ....

Pakistan's own 70% population is in rural areas, isn't it?

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something like that, and its not just a rural/urban divide.

its that rural are more likely to be uneducated, more conservative/orthodox in their mindset.

I mean there are people in London who would have a challenge integrating with city life in islamabad and Karachi, because

it does not mean all people from rural uneducated backgrounds do poorly or are not well integrated or city folks from pakistan with some education are always the bright spots.

and then parrhay likhay jaahil is a category entirely on its own

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Re: Major differences between British and French Muslims

Perhaps people living in England have more frequent travel back to Pakistani village areas than those living in north America..?

Perhaps people living in north America are more accepted/respected as just another foreigner than in UK.

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Re: Major differences between British and French Muslims

its not frequent travel, its the inability or unwillingness to adapt and integrate, (note I did not say assimilate).

pakistanis in UK are like mexicans in US, there is a sizable group of successful ones, they are in politics, academia, industrry, entertainment..and leaders in every branch of society you can imagine.Yet there are large mexican ghetto areas, kids in bilingual programs without much support at home or focus to move to english instruction, gangs, crimes etc etc.

US by its virtue is a more open society because it is a land of immigrants, but then realize there are pakistani lord mayors, MPs and what nots in UK. No so in US.

Timepass- December 2012
Timepass- December 2012
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Re: Major differences between British and French Muslims

I am not well versed on the French Muslim side of the equation, however I can say that with British Muslims particular Pakistani or Bengali, there is a strong underclass that skews the representation/opinion polls. If we drill down further we will see that the Mirpuri and the Sylheti communities are probably the mist economically deprived and prone violent tendencies. As I write this, I am very conscious of the fact that you can not make such claims easily. I have had tea with a Bradford based millionaire whose family came from Mirpur in 1970s well after the major waves migration. Similarly there are shining stars in the Sylheti community. However returning to my original point, it is easier to identify the areas of concern or concentation dissatified individuals, than to take a balanced view of things.

While the Pakistani community in Britain is evenly distributed, the community in London is on par with the Indians who tend to exceed whote britains in the major economic, educational opportunities. Of course it is easy to sideline their views because Rasheed theaccountant living surrey with two boys at Cambridge does not exactly mesh with the Abdul living up in Bradford, not finishing school and struggling to run his fathers takeaway. Theseare great exaggerations but they exemplify a point - you cannot judge an entire community.

PS: Didn't the French Muslims riot as well? Aren't the inner suburbs essentially ghettos? Some have argued that French policies promote the sensestructural racism. Again a few things to think about.

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failure of integration of an ethnic group has a lot to do with the host nation and communitys respective baggage. If the pakistani community has it's problems in Britain so does the latino in the US, the Arabs in France and Turks in germany. X2 is right though the socio-economic background of the migrant communities does play a role..but both wealth and poverty don't correlate with integration..it goes either way rich communities like the Greeks in turkey, Jews in Germany were rejected by their hosts.

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I agree and we have to keep in mind that its not absolute acceptance or rejection..

The socio economic background plays a role but in this case the socio economic background had a common theme of a desire against integrating, and unfortunately the socio economic group they had to deal with ..the blue collared types, they were not as accepting anyways.

The opportunities were there and whether a case can be made that they were sytametiocally prevented from or discouraged from taking advantage of these opportunities by others, or that it was simply not a high enough priority in the families and community, or some mix of both is where teh bulk of the debate then resides.

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you have a point..however I'd like to add ..that example may not apply to French or other Euro Muslims as such because of a difference in the French approach to ethnic and religious groups. The French approach is to not acknowledge any difference in culture or ethnicity..the British approach was to create sub cultures for people to work in..so the BBC does not have programmes catering to people from south Asia ..it has an "Asian network". The end result French Arabs are often more fluent in French then in Arabic, while British Pakistani's literacy in English even in communities that have been settled for 30-40 years is comparatively quite low..and yet both will often have the same grievences.

Again one size does not fit all, some members of the black community in Britain have commented about how they felt far more prejudice in parts of the US than in Britain, while conversely some members of the Pakistani american community look at attitudes in England with shock.

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Re: Major differences between British and French Muslims

majority of french arabs come from morocco, tunisia and algeria where french is a second language and spoken by huge percentage.

english never became as pervasive in the subcontinent as that.

and you see we actually have some rather interesting contradictions among observations posted on this forum.

on one hand we say that bbcds have forgotten their culture or language, one the other hand we are also saying they are not literate in english.

and the example does apply because language fluency is one thing, but when we look ata cademic and professionao achievement, it does not look too rosy for french arabs.