I read in other posts, several peoples ask for a logical proof of Hazart Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claim.
I need to find out what is a logical proof? we need to set the ground first. Now, if you look back and see and try to proof the prophethood of Hazart Muhammad SAW. Or may be try to proof the Hazart Issa or Hazart Moses or any other prophet. How would you do it.
The Hindu answer:
"You experience it yourself. Yoga, baby!"
The Muslim answer:
"Look for the signs. The scientific truths. The mathematical miracle. The Quran is not just a simple book of words - it reveals things that we are only recently affirming through non-religious means"
good answer astro!
yes read Quran and you will find out in a lot of suras it says "and he was a rightious prophet" for alot of them eg. Mohammed(pbuh),
Isa(pbuh),Musa(Pbuh) and Hud(pbuh)!
Guys Guys Guys, what happened if person does not believe in Quran, like he is non-muslim. Now, how would you proof the prophethood of Hazur SAW or any other prophet.
Well, seeing as how I'm a non-Muslim, and I don't particularly believe in the truths of the Quran, you would have to do some real heavy arguments of logic to prove to me that the Quran is the only source of spiritual truth.
And from what I've seen, that isn't gonna happen.
For every explanation of how peacefully Muhammed carried himself, there is an equally compelling explanation of how he conquered and destroyed to serve his own purposes. Therefore, history is not on the Muslim's side. The Quran must then be able to stand on its own as a spiritual treastise, while being able to refute any claims counter to it. And I don't believe that it does that.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited October 04, 2000).]
You said
** As for as we muslims are concerned, we don't need it to be proven **
Waaaaoooooo, and you have all rights to challenge anybody's believes and call him whatever you feel like to. Go back check history and you will know who use to do these things.
so what is logic? define logic, anybody?
I am still waiting....
Astrofan..
You would be surprised to find out that Quran does hold its own when you try to prove its authenticity.
A couple examples i can give you on top of my head are
1. it explains in detail the process of reproduction of human being, e.g., the child being formed by mixing of sperm and ova... and this is 1400 years ago.
2. it has explained the boold circulatory system.
I would recommend that you read a book called
'Bible, Science and Quran' by Dr. Maurice Bucalle. The book is written by a professor who tried to disprove the authenticity of Quran.. but in turn converted to Islam.
This is indeed one of the most difficult questions I have come across (and that is to say something
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
) Initially I decided not to respond, as I don’t think I have sufficient knowledge to justify any answer I give. But lets give it a try.
In Islam, as in any other divine religion, the acid test of followers is not logic but faith. Whenever a messanger came to guide the people, in most cases the nation had deviated from the path of God. Every messanger had to guide the people back to the right path, which meant that the people were asked to leave the path followed by their forefathers. In some cases, to help the deviated people see the truth of the message, God provided miracles:
- Abraham RA: The fire alighted around him could not harm him.
- Noah RA: He was given foresight and guidance to build a ship and rescue his followers from the storm.
- Sulyman (or Solomen) RA: He had authority over living beings in addition to man.
- Moses RA: Probably the maximum number of miracles, including, his stick, his creating a path from between the sea, and the holy book (“Taurat”) containing the commandments.
- Christ RA: His ability to cure the ill. His crucifixion is also a miracle.
Now when we see the life of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), the biggest miracle is the Holy Book “Quran”, itself. No other messanger was provided divine text with so much detail. Please remember that Muhammad (PBUH) came approximately 500-600 years after Christ. But, as per Quran and as per accepted muslim beliefs there is to be no further messangers till the Day of Judgement, who will bring any fresh set of instructions from God or Allah or the Almighty.
When you ask for logic to show the divinity of Islam, I have only one answer. Read Quran. Read Quran as it should be read. Read and ponder over its message. These are not the words of a mortal or a human being. These are divine words. Reading Quran will clear you of all misgivings or confusions, which you may harbor.
If you are online, there are many islamic sites. For english translation of Quran you can use http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
Many people in the west, America and Europe embrace Islam every day. Not because they are influenced by an Islamic scholar, but just because they read Quran, tried to understand its meanings and then realized that this is indeed the truth. Once you reach that stage, logic becomes unimportant, because then you start believing in God’s word. This is only possible if God provides you with the insipration to search for the truth. This is the time for faith to takeover. And what we muslims refer to as “Eeman”.
Adios!
Pristine, with all respect, one could as easily start believing in other faiths? Couldn’t one?
What you are saying, as I understand it, that “blind faith” is a pre-requisite in becoming a Muslim, and one must never “challenge (for lack of a better word)” any divine (or spiritual) words?
If I read you right, why would one subject others to different set of rules?
This is what I was expecting, Read Quran, but problem is that Quran says
It's Guidence for Mutakian.
Thing are getting more and more complex, now in order to get a guidence you have to be a Mutaki and you have to explain Mutaki and Tukwa. How would a muslim explains a Takwa to a non-muslim. You have to make a Mutaki out him before he can get any guidence from Quran.
Now same logic applys to you, would you want to read some other books to investigate the truth about the claims they made. or you will just blindly say whatever you see around you.
Anybody please.....
Waaaaoooooo, and you have all rights to challenge anybody's believes and call him whatever you feel like to. Go back check history and you will know who use to do these things.>>>>>>>
johnd
It is the duty of every muslim to do his utmost to fulfil the will of Allah (swt) and spread HIS message. It is the will of Allah (swt) that Islam should be the religion of every human being on this planet.
Pristine, you said in your last para "....But, as per Quran and as per accepted muslim beliefs there is to be no further messangers till the Day of Judgement, who will bring any fresh set of instructions from God or Allah or the Almighty. "
Just wanted to clarify that there will be no more "new" instructions, i.e., new religions, and that Imam Mehdi and Jesus in the end will come to re-emphasize the message our beloved Prophet(PBUH) and will InshaAllah die as muslims.
You did a fine job in explaining it.
** that Imam Mehdi and Jesus in the end will come to re-emphasize the message our
beloved Prophet(PBUH) and will InshaAllah die as muslims. **
Well, I thought you don't need anybody since you have Quran and Hadis. Even with Mehdi and Messaih comming, they will not convert anybody, they will kill all the non-muslims.
johnd:
The way I see it, I do not agree with you at all. Quran is not for mutaqeen alone. Quran is for all mankind. Infact, there are many verses in Quran, which are explicitly addressed to the non-believers.
Quran actually endorses the scriptures which were revealed earlier, including Bible and Taurat. My only reservation, is that the present day form of Bible is probably not the same as the one revealed to Jesus. Infact, some sects of christians may have their own versions of bible (my knowledge is a bit limited, so excuse me). If you show me a bible in its original form (probably King James version is closest), then as it is endorsed in Quran, so I will accept it as containing divine words.
It is my understanding that Islam doesn't stop us from reading other divine texts, however it clarifies that Islam is the most mature and most perfect form of all divine religions. Hence even though we can study those, and must believe them to be the truth and divine, it is Quran which provides a complete set of divine revelations.
As all divine books have one source, so none of them differs in the commandements. In fact the gist of all the 10 commandments of Moses can be found in Quran.
NYAhmadi
We believe in all other divine religions, which came before Islam. As for your first statement, while I have no problems in admitting that this is within the realm of "possible", however, for someone who is provided guidance by Allah, I don't believe this will hold true, in what you are trying to say. But that is something which is entirely prone subjective statements.
If your question partain to the Ahmadiyya sect, I am sorry but I can not provide any answer to you in this forum, or atleast in this thread. My knowledge about Ahmadiyya sect is quite limited, however, in simplest terms, I can say that I think the Lahori group led by Maulana Mohammad Ali was probably closer to truth then the Qadiyan group led by (at one time) Dr Bashiruddin Ahmed Mahmud. Though both groups claim to follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadiyan and both of them call themselves Ahmadiyya, so, its best if I stay out of this discussion.
Adios!
[quote]
Originally posted by johnd:
**
** that Imam Mehdi and Jesus in the end will come to re-emphasize the message our
beloved Prophet(PBUH) and will InshaAllah die as muslims. **
Well, I thought you don't need anybody since you have Quran and Hadis. Even with Mehdi and Messaih comming, they will not convert anybody, they will kill all the non-muslims. **
[/quote]
johnd, I must understand where you are coming from and what are your beliefs before I can discuss this particular subject. As these matters relate to a future period, so any misinterpretation is easy, and it largely depends on what you believe as the authentic religious text.
Even different schools of thought within muslims can offer you different versions of these events which we presume will happen in future.
As for your last statement, I can safely disagree. Not only that they will not kill all non-muslims, on the contrary, it is a belief for majority of muslims, that just before the Day of Judgement there won't be any living muslims on Earth. The sound which will announce the end of this world will instantly kill all living beings, but there won't be any muslims left at that time. However, it is also a belief amongst a majority of muslims that there will be fierce battles between the forces of muslims and non-muslims. The muslim forces will triumph in the end (doesn't mean all non-muslims will be killed).
Also to note that it is the belief of a majority of muslims that Jesus Christ will endorse Islam as his religion and that he will also be one of the followers of Mahdi, who will revive Islam. Reviving Islam does not mean that there will be a new book or fresh ahadith, rather to me it means that as the muslims have themselves deviated from the prescribed path, and have forgotten most of Quran and Sunnah, so, Mahdi, will infact, reinforce the same Islamic principles which were conveyed to us by Quran and our Prophet (PBUH).
I must warn you, however, that all statements above relate to a period in future, are based on religious text, but not all muslims subscribe to these statements as truth. So no conclusions may be drawn, as there can not be logical reasonings to prove something which will happen in future.
Adios!
I am sorry my friend, I am an Ahmadi and it's look like you had a little exposure of Lohari group. I'll not discuss that here but It was nice talking to you.
I always stayed away from these kind of discussion because they always endes in Gali Glooch. That was the reason I opened this post, it is impossible for us to approve or reject a somebody's claim without proper investigation. The only and only way to find the right path is way Allah told us and thats to seek help from him and seek guidence from him. He is the only one knows who is right and who is wrong.
As far as you saying that whatever is happening against Ahmadis in Pakistan is individual problem, that's wrong. Whatever happened and whatever is happening is happening under the supervision of higher Authorities. Even if I tell you what happened to me and my Family that will be enough for me to prove my point. I am not begging for anybody's sympathy, I know what I believe in and I'll walk thru any fire if I have to. This is my Jehad, I am doing it and I'll keep on doing it.
God Bless You.