Can guppies share their views as to what religion says about the boundaries of the universe and what science says.
In other words,
Where does the universe ends and does it end and if it ends what is beyond that?
From eligious point of view it is avery difficult concept, i have asked so many ppl but with no clear cut answer.I like Ghalib’s verse very much
Na tha kuch to khuda tha, kuch na hota to khuda hota
Daboya mujh ko honey ney na hota mein to kiya hota.
Surah 65. At-Talaq, Verse 12.
"Allah it is who has created seven heavens, and of the earth similarly. The commandment comes down among them slowly, that you may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surrounds all things in knowledge."
Surah 41. Fussilat, Verse 12.
"Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower."
Levels of existence may be explained as follows: The Universe contains Clusters containing galaxies, these contain Solar Systems, some of which contain planets. All these form different levels of organization. The lowest heaven is the Solar system, the center of which is the sun. The sun should be regarded as a nucleus that controls events in the Solar system through its gravity and radiation. It is a transforming agent which uses hydrogen as fuel, absorbed from the surroundings, produces the other elements and energy and radiates these out into the rest of the Solar system and outer space. There are many Solar Systems, but they all collectively form one level. The Solar system belongs to a Galaxy of many Solar systems. It too has a center, probably a Black Hole. Not only has this a strong gravitational force that absorbs materials, but it also transforms and radiates into the rest of the galaxy. The Galaxy may be regarded as the second heaven and all galaxies collectively may be regarded as another level. And so on to seven heavens and levels. That which we call the Universe may only be third heaven or level. Beyond the seventh heaven is Allah.
From another point of view: We have material objects, these may be composed of crystals or cells, which are composed of molecules, which are composed of atoms. These contain sub-atomic particles which may be composed of electromagnetic substance, photons, and so on. The whole of the Universe, or any object in it could be looked at from the point of view of any of these levels. The Universe could be regarded as a field of forces rather than consisting of material objects. A material object, including man, does not exist only in the macro-material world, but also as an entity composed of, and living in the world of cells, molecules, atoms, nuclear particles, and the electromagnetic field. Interactions at these different levels are quite different. The cause is not so much prior to the effect in time, but lies at a higher level. The events on this earth, for instance, depend on causes in the Solar System, particularly the sun. It is likely that in the same way as iron filings take up the shape of a magnetic field, so also are the materials on earth controlled to create things.
The objects at the lower level appear separate with gaps between them. But they are less separate when seen from the higher or deeper levels. The various stars seen as material objects seem separate from each other, but they are all connected by gases, gravity, electrical fields and so on.
According to another classification we have a material, an emotional, a mental, a conscious and other higher levels of existence - a total of 7 corresponding to the number of heavens. These levels are distinguished by the fact that they are accessible to corresponding human faculties e.g. sensation, feeling, thought, consciousness and the other levels are represented by experiences such as insight, inspiration and revelation. When we discuss human culture, sociology, law, art or psychology we are not, in fact, dealing with gross matter. The world we inhabit is one of culture not accessible to animals. Access to higher levels requires the cultivation of faculties still dormant in man.
It may be assumed that the original single Impulse, or general force, divides into several particular or Special Forces at the next level. And these again sub-divide into further forces. The result of the operation of the increasing number of these forces and their laws is ever-greater rigidity as we proceed downwards. Existence may, therefore, be represented a series of levels, a ladder, or a pyramid, or by concentric circles, from the subtlest to the coarsest. Increasing freedom and power are found the higher one goes. However, we must not think of these as existing in space and time. They are levels in Qualitative Space and coexist in our own space. This may be compared to the student who has to learn mathematics by learning how to add each sum separately at first. Then, having understood the principle of addition, he can add together any sum he has not seen before. Later, he also understands the principle of multiplication. Still later, he understands the principles of manipulating numbers. He can now use symbols instead of numbers; he understands Algebra. And so on. There is increasing flexibility and power and greater capacity for self-fulfillment. It is not inconceivable that human consciousness can penetrate into still deeper levels. The reason why they are also called higher levels is not difficult to see. We are connected with the rest of the Universe, the heavens above, through the sub-atomic and radiant levels, which also exist within us.
Conversely, we may fall to denser levels and suffer from increasing restrictions and limitations. This produces suffering and the condition is called Hell.
And Allah (SWT) is all knowledgeable and HU know every thing.
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 30, 2001).]
The following essay by Ahmed Baki was published in October 1994 issue of a Turkish Science And Tech Magazine named ULTRA and in July 1995 issue of Turkish Popular Science Magazine. Very interesting!
‘Time’ is never something as we consider it, for we understand ‘time’ depending on our way of observation and perception capability. ‘Time’ is shaped (sculpted) in our minds based on a way we, the humans observe the universe, and it is a product of our five senses perception.
However in fact, it is only the eternal, undivided, ‘universal one whole moment’ that exists, and that ‘one moment’ is considered as ‘time (passages)’ in the presence of an observer, the humans, from a perspective associated with the restricted area of perception.
The discovery of ‘hologram principle’ has made it easy for us to understand that the entire information possessed by one limitless and eternal being that is the origin of universe and has a WHOLENESS, is contained holographically in every atom of existence as a whole. It is that every piece of the universe contains (enfolds) all the information possessed by the whole, for the universe is structured like a hologram.
Despite our five senses tell that the universe is composed of independently existing units, and despite the apparent separateness of all things in our physical level of existence, the hologram principle shows that everything that comes into sight in the universe stems from a wholeness and the entire universe is made up by that basic undivided, unbroken ONENESS.
In like manner, every event and every formation that we have observed in the past or will observe in future, that is the entire past and entire future are contained within the holographic structure of the universe nontimely and nonlocally as an undivided ‘information’.
Accordingly, each individual observer taking part in the universe can reach that holographically-designed-information at the extent its perceptive capability allows to access. Because of the reason that there is neither a limit and thus nor a center determined for the ‘wholeness of information,’ the whole information that appears as universe to our senses, is nonlocally open and presented as a whole to any point where an observer stands.
This means that each smallest region of space and time is open to an information in which the entire past and entire future is undividedly complete one and whole.
However, an observer can only access that information at the level its capacity allows to access, which determines one's space and time conception. It is therefore that, the information observed in the world of our senses is a product of our perception and is there from only one perspective. The observer himself is also nothing other than the unfoldment of nonlocal information from within its standpoint.
For the fact that all happenings and formations in our world wholly existed as a holographic information within ‘one undivided cosmic moment,’ all our experiences are in a state of ‘completion’ at such a dimension. They have entirely been accomplished, and all is nothing more than a complete information... This means the whole universe is destined already and our RELATIVE future is foregone at some other conception of time.
It is that, everything that happens in the world of our senses (in our universe) has totally taken place and already been accomplished at the sight of ‘one universal moment’. There is a dimension where everything has already finished up and it is self-contained as a whole information.
Yet, the individual observers limited by their perception, can only access into and be aware of that nonlocal ‘information’ at the level of their perspectives. Therefore, we, as humans are able to observe only one level of that holographically-designed-information, and it is that information that makes up ‘our world’ totally we live in.
All of the existence that we have been perceiving at our present state is simply one panorama of information received from within a limitless being and it is there in front of our eyes (is real from our perspective) as ‘our universe’ as a product of limited capability of our sensory means. As a result of that, we comprehend the unique ‘cosmic moment’ shaped and represented in terms of years, months and days fully based on our way of conception.
If we were to perceive the holographic universe from a different perspective of a higher level, our conception of time would completely alter and our ‘actual lifetimes’ in this world would most likely represent not longer than a few seconds of such a dimension. Because, ‘our worldly lifetimes’ cover just a particular domain of the holographic structure of universe, and such a domain is maybe nothing more than a drop of water in an ocean if compared to the ‘cosmic moment’.
So, we live in time passages as established on a conception as we sculpted the cosmic moment in our minds according to our way of perception. Another conception of time from a different perspective will never liken our current conception of time from our actual state.
As a matter of fact, if compared to the theoretic ‘cosmic year’ that persists since the birth of ‘our physical universe’ with a big-bang, a human lifetime in our actual dimension do not scale more than a few seconds experienced in the whole history year of time...
If we realize a leap in our consciousness to a higher realm, that is, if our consciousness comes to interact with an information from a perspective of a higher level, in other words, if an information from such a dimension is revealed through ourselves, our current life dimension in this world will represent nothing more than an ILLUSION to us. Reckoned in terms of a galactic time dimension even, our lifetimes with all our memories in this world will be remembered like a DREAM of a sleep.
And we may have a leap in consciousness only if we become aware of our essential role at the sight of the basic Essence of universe, that is, at the sight of the universal ONENESS, to be NOTHING more than nothing in Its dream, we might then suddenly experience the awareness that it is all an ILLUSION experienced.
Everything that took place in an observational process are understood only in terms of the interaction of information with the observer, and they are simply signs and samples drawn out at a perspective of a limitless holographic universe. We have been viewing a realm of total information interacted with ourselves as our actual lifetimes and looking at the rest in accordance with that.
With respect to the ‘One Cosmic Moment’ and at Its sight, everything dwells in a holographically-designed-information within ITSELF and all times are foregone. That means all times have already been KNOWN undividedly within Oneness Itself. Because, the universe and everything without exception dwells in His knowledge. We, too, are nothing more than individual images made from and formed within His knowledge. Yet, considering the ‘consciousness’ we have, the entire information is undividedly open to us as a whole.
Through a leap in our consciousness toward the essence of being, our essence can attain the wholeness of information enclosed in the Universal Oneness. It is that, the ONE will be revealing and observing Its own knowledge, by means of ourselves in Its presence. This is the ultimate case even now at all states and is the truth. Because, it is just one ‘Whole Being’ and one ‘Undivided Moment’ alone that is under consideration at that dimension. In addition, the holographic universe is nothing other than the qualities that the ‘Eternal Moment’, or in other words the ‘Holder of Information’ possessed within Itself, and the expression of those qualities exhibited to Itself from within Itself...
This fact has been mentioned in Sufism as ‘all the universes are originally illusion and everything has taken place and already been completed within the knowledge of Allah.’ These universes mentioned are nothing other than the realms of information designed holographically...
Everything, every answer and every experience are actually available in an unfragmented universal holographic information, but it is the TIME that will SHOW them all to us when due...
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 30, 2001).]
Mm10, what you meant to say was:
SitarooN say aagay JahaN aur bhi haiN
Abhi Ishk kay ImtahaN aur bi hiaN
Muslaman:
Thanks for sharing an intersting discussion. Unfortunately it does not address the original question i.e. boudaries of Universe and what is beyond. I agree that human being does not have enough intelligence to answer that. It is analogous to asking question about oceans to a fish who lived all her life in a pond.If you feel that your reference did address the question please refer.
I think my first post shed some light onto this subject; But it is a tricky question, Why? Because from Quran Surah Az-Zariyat, Verse 47 we know:
"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."
'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant. 'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to extend, to expand'
From the scientific point of view the expansion of the Universe is one of the most imposing discoveries of modern day. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate centers around the way this is taking place.
It was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is backed up by physics in the examination of the galactic spectrum; the regular movement towards the red section of their spectrum may be explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus the size of the Universe is probably constantly increasing and this increase will become bigger the further away the galaxies are from us. The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of light to speeds faster than this.
Let’s go back to parts of my first post:
Surah 65. At-Talaq, Verse 12.
"Allah it is who has created seven heavens, and of the earth similarly. The commandment comes down among them slowly, that you may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surrounds all things in knowledge."
If we take the first point of view which advocates that the Universe contains Clusters containing galaxies, these contain Solar Systems, some of which contain planets. All these form different levels of organization. The lowest heaven is the Solar system, the center of which is the sun. The sun should be regarded as a nucleus that controls events in the Solar system through its gravity and radiation. It is a transforming agent which uses hydrogen as fuel, absorbed from the surroundings, produces the other elements and energy and radiates these out into the rest of the Solar system and outer space. There are many Solar Systems, but they all collectively form one level. The Solar system belongs to a Galaxy of many Solar systems. It too has a center, probably a Black Hole. Not only has this a strong gravitational force that absorbs materials, but it also transforms and radiates into the rest of the galaxy. The Galaxy may be regarded as the second heaven and all galaxies collectively may be regarded as another level. And so on to seven heavens and levels. That which we call the Universe may only be third heaven or level. Beyond the seventh heaven is Allah.
Read also the other point of view in my first post. In any case if we take the first point of view then we can only talk about ** Visible Universe ** (which is also a scientific term) is still expanding (Quran confirms it) therefore no physical boundary can be described. What ever is beyond that is beyond mankind’s visible range through any sensory means, therefore science fail at this point.
Therefore what is beyond visible universe or physical universe cannot be explained at present. Further research by Muslims on Quran and on this subject may reveal new concepts in future.
And Allah (SWT) is all knowledgeable and HU know every thing!
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 30, 2001).]