God is supreme and almighty and can create anything.
If this is the case then can He/She can create things that even God himself/herself can’t control afterwards? doesn’t that mean that God has limits as well?
Re: Limits of God..
Suroor, this philosophical question is actually thus:
"Can god create something so heavy that he himself cannot lift?"
If a believer replies yes, he can create something like that, to which the philosopher will raise his index finger and raising his eyebrows will reply, "Aha! So god is not all-powerful as he claims because he can't lift the stone..."
If a believer replies no, he can't create something like that, to which the philosopher will again raise his index finger and raising his eyebrows will reply, "Aha! So god is not omniscient as he claims because he can't create something like that..."
So in confusion, some in the ranks of the believers will start doubting their faith, while others will smile and sleep in peace...
The whole question revolves around making god a figue that is easily digestible and understandable by their own limited thinking...They wish to put God inside the limited confines of their own brain (Of which they use only 11 or 12 percent anyway)...
The answer is simple...God is not limited to human logic...
For the past 25 years they have just now begun to understand the subsurface working of their own brains, and they wish to get an answer that will dissolve god into their tiny consciousness...
And if the truth be told, we were never told...And since we were never told about it, why worry about it?
Re: Limits of God..
yep, just came up in a conversation i had with someone in uni. thought i post it here as well and get different views.
then God shudn't have given us minds to think about it either and humans wudnt worry about it either.
Re: Limits of God..
He gave you other things to worry about and make the best of your times…He’s drawn the line on a couple of things…Him and after death and a few others…
Use that inquisitive mind for something else…That same mind has lead people to very wrong things too…
Don’t trust your mind only, trust your heart too…
Re: Limits of God..
what may be wrong for u may not be wrong for others. who/what defines that "line" drawn by God? doesnt it vary from religion to religion.
Re: Limits of God..
Forget other religions’ lines…Who are you? What is your belief?
Where does your faith draw the line? Find that out first, then seek to limit god to your thinking…
Re: Limits of God..
my question wasn't referred to any specific belief or religion. it was in regards to all the beliefs and religions in general.
i have yet to find out who i am and what i believe in. hence all the questions.
Re: Limits of God..
Words cannot define Gods attributes or sud I say, God’s attributes cannot be described by human language.
Human beings have a limited life, God is eternal. Similarly, our experiences, intellectual capabilities and achievements are time constrained, while that cannot be said for the creator and sustainer of this universe.
Human beings do have their limits, for they are mortal (who wud like to be immortalized), Same cannot be said for God, the creator and sustainer. Therefore, any efforts to conceptualize God’s attributes will always be subject to time and condition.
Re: Limits of God..
God can create a stone so heavy even he can’t lift it?
interesting series of responses to this question here…
Re: Limits of God..
can God create square circle? just because we can play around with words which seem to have no logical answer doesnt mean that we are smarter than Allah. we should avoid using our minds in these kinds of talk, because our minds will cause us to enter in hell....
The Mujrimûn (polytheists, criminals, sinners, etc.) will be known by their marks (black faces), and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet. (Ar-Rahman 55:41)
Re: Limits of God..
^ heaven and hell is another discussion. its adopted from zorastrian religion, to motivate humans to do things which comes under morally approved by the boundaries of a particular religion. again which varies from religion to religion.
Re: Limits of God..
All comes down to faith little one. There are no answers. Reasoning leads you brick walls. Is it your preogative wheither to believe something lies beyond it. Or not. Sometimes the greater bravery is in taking this leap. Rather than sticking to reaffirmed truths (ie nothing else is there).
I am Bsing. Belive what cha will. Its all gravy baby.
Re: Limits of God..
why in the first place god create polytheist then ask them exlculisively pray to him
cant he proggramme everyone to think same way pray to same god .
Re: Limits of God..
Simply put : NO.
God is all powerful . He can create anything but He will always be able to control it . Because he is the Supreme Being .
I think we base God’s attributes from what we know of humans. That is not the case of course. If God had limits or was not able to control his creations - that would not be God. Thats what we humans are.
Re: Limits of God..
How can God exert control if God cannot change? How can God CREATE..because that would require a CHANGE!
State A = God is.
State B = God and a bunch of idiot humans along with a universe.
See..religion likes to have it both ways. God is perfect, immutable and unrepresentable, timeless, spaceless, nowhere, everywhere, conscious without a brain, knowledge without a storage for memory…yet God can DO things…God is not a “vegetable”..he is active, invovled, thinking, talking, creating.
Static yet Dynamic
A Being that is not a Being
Yup..so we cannot put a limit on God as that would be inconsistent with the definition of God. Hence, any attribute we give to God is incorrect…because ATTRIBUTES are strictly defined to entities within the scheme of this universe. Therefore, we can never know anything about God, if we assert that the definition of God is that he is or is like nothing/nothingness. As soon as we say God is _____ then that word would naturally be a human constructed adjective or attribute. Even words like Eternal, All-Powerful..they put a constraint on God in terms of God having humanizing qualities. I am not saying God is not eternal or all-powerful..because claiming the negative ALSO asserts an attribute on God. Simply put..what I’m saying is that if we go with the definition of God given by the most religions, then we usually hit some inconsistancy or contradiction because we cannot separate what is knowable from what is religious speculation. God’s attributes are not *knowable *from reading a holy book. That is not knowledge but secondary information that can only be believed..not known. Attributes have to be experienced..and if God’s attributes are not within the realm of the universe we can never experience them. Experience leads to knowledge. Also, there are implicit non-experienced concepts (elementary math, logical structures) that lead to some form of knowledge..but even here we cannot grasp a hold of God’s attributes if we claim that God is not expressable by any part of this universe.
Let’s put it another way. Start off by saying there is this human being X. Then more information is received that states this person is not in this universe, but not outside it either. Then person X also has no shape or size… nor consists of matter. To compound this the person X does not change! Ofcourse, change from what? We don’t know what the person X consists of. Apparently..since we stated in the first sentence that X is a human being..we already attribute to this person: consciousness, morality, imperfection etc. However, X is in a state of no-state and no time. On part of this entity being human, we can say that X has some level of honesty, integrity, some skills, love, hate, knowledge etc. But…we are looking at our current definition of humans to describe this other “human”. But X is nothing like a human! How are we to INTEGRATE human qualities and attributes with person X! What needs to be done is to realize that our original information is not complete..we only know what person X is NOT…but we don’t know what person X IS. Therefore, person X, logically, must have some form that is not a form from this universe..that allows it to not change and not take up space…and is not in or outside of the universe. This is really weird and confusing.
Indeed..the confusion stems from us trying to retain TWO somewhat contrary assertions:
- X is not like anything in this universe. X is practically inconceivable.
- X has all the attributes of a regular human.
Now if we extend this analogy to God..the confusion becomes:
- God is inconceivable. God is a changeless, formless, timeless..something that is not a thing.
- God has perfect human attributes. God also has consciousness even though God cannot change (i dont know how this works). God has emotions (as is shown thru religious texts) even though God has no form.
Does God have a form thats not a form? Is that blasphemous…are we to state uniequivocally that God has no form..cannot change…cannot exist anywhere or everywhere (as either will limit God and give shape and form)..and is not affected or limited by time (is God static?)
Essentially we start by saying GOD IS NOTHING. And then we start attaching things to Him. We are attaching humanistic attributes on nothing. And then claim that we KNOW this being and it is TRUTH. No we dont..we don’t know anything.
It is true when they say we shouldn’t ask such questions..because they lead to disbelief and whatnot. But, why doesn’t it work the other way..why should religious “truths” be asserted as perfect, unchangeable KNOWLEDGE..when it is not knowledge but simply information..that can never be verified. And if they cannot be verified..cannot be known…cannot be questioned..what is the purpose? It gives us something to relate to…something to conceptualize even thought God is not conceptualizable. That is why polytheism developed in the first place. Its not an evil thing…its a very natural expression of human needs…and monotheism is an evolution of it. The next step (after Islam) has been to realize the unity of everything. That there is no separation.
It seems that monotheistic religion promotes such a concept of God that forces people to basically not worship anything within this universe. It seems to be a preventative model..so that everything in this universe becomes equal…egalitarianism. So this is what we’re worshipping: not-in-universe. Logically a God cannot be anything in the universe..however..apart from that..we really should not and cannot say anything about God..because it becomes conjecture…or ppl believe THEIR holy book is describing God(and how many interpetations of those are there anyways!)
The moment we ascribe God qualities..we run the risk of creating our own idol…infact..the moment we gave God a name…we distinguish an entity that is simply an idea in our mind.
Re: Limits of God..
5:101 O ye who believe!** Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble**. But if ye ask about things when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)]
Re: Limits of God..
What do you mean?
God can “create” and he can change “it”. It requires a change, but that does not mean God will lose control of it. He can create it and he can “AlWAYS” conrol it. That is why he is God, because he is not like us humans.
As for the rest of what you say, I agree. God is not like humans, but the only way we can understand God, is from what we know and what we have experienced . Thus we have no other choice or way to understand God, then to use the attributes that we know of. All merciful, all powerful etc . They help us to understand what or how God is, yet they also help us to learn that he is not like any human being.
Re: Limits of God..
But, its not quite fair that we don’t get the opportunity to “ask about things”..and they won’t get “made plain” to us.
My whole issue comes down to the double standards that Muslims hold against people of other religions/ideologies. Our religon (according to majority interpetation) claims that people of other religions and idealogies must convert their belief system to ours for salvation. Now..how are they supposed to do that exactly? The starting point is to question their belief system, find loopholes, and then say..come to us cause it makes more sense. However, we ourselves won’t tell them “don’t question you belief system..because it may cause u trouble”. How can we complain against Chrisitianity’s trinity doctrine? We say that its not logical, its not possible yadda yadda…but then…why not??? If we cannot question..and we cannot know…then it might actually be true…because its just belief. So why do we expect them to find the contradiction in their beliefs when we reject ourselves from seeing our contradictions.
When muslims are faced with such pressing questions they quote verses like the above one..and then say..its all about belief…we have limited knowledge. But this can similarly be applied to hinduism, christianity, buddhism…everything!! If belief is not based on knowledge or logic but on an unquestioning feeling..then no one could or should be held responsible for what they believe..because its an intrinsic part of them. You cannot hold someone responsible for something they cannot think about!
Re: Limits of God..
You only believe he can create, change and control it. Can you tell me how? Do you have knowledge of this..or just speculative belief? I don’t have proof that he doesn’t…but neither that he does. We don’t know what God IS..so how can we say God does this..he does that…blah blah. The only way we “know” God’s attribute are through holy books..that for all we know have been transmitted through men…and on their testimony that an angel came..and us believing this said angel came from a being called God that we don’t have any idea about because it was written in the book.
We LIKE to believe that God is All-Merciful and All-Powerful..because we would not want to accept anything less. We ourselves do not have any experience of either attribute. We feel mercy in our fellow human beings..and sometimes give it outselves. We sometimes feel the power of others..and sometimes exert it our selves. God ..if exerting such.. is very subtle..and we are oblivious to it. It is as if its not there at all. I don’t know why God is keeping himself so hidden. He says he controls every movement of even every leaf…yet..we don’t feel that he’s controlling us…we feel we are free and believe it might be an illusion. We are confused..at least i am. Some of God’s attributes even seem contradictory..and have been attacked by athiests and agnostics alike. Contradiction in logic doesn’t seem to hurt Islamic belief..but ofcourse..we’re the first to point at Christians and make fun of them.
Now..its either that all these noble attributes have been GIVEN to God by man. That is..we projecting our image onto God. Or…that we believe that these attributes are noble BECAUSE God has them even if the universe didn’t exist.
Re: Limits of God..
Well said 828.
If u beleive in God then u should beleive that there are different interpretation of what God is. There is no logic saying that God is HIndu , Muslim or Christian.U cannot prove that there is one god, 3 god or million god. How can u justify that. It all comes down to belief. If u believe that there is only one god.. believe that.. but u dont have to impose it on others.. Its the same case with those who believe in multiple gods.