May be it is according to your point of view..but i completely disagree with it.Abaya is usually worn on top of other outfits,its not the only thing a woman wears right on top of her skin.
Yep. My wife also wears that kind of Abaya. I am not sure what kind of abaya MatineeSiren is talking about. I have asked my wife and she is saying people even wear abaya over jeans and other clothes like shalwar kameez, but never has she heard of an abaya wore over skin.
The victim was wearing revealing dress that seduced them.
No matter how many times you move the bee away, it would always come back to the flower that is more "colorful" and "sweet smelling" because it is in its nature to be attracted by it.
Do an experiment. Pass by a street full of beggars while having a colorful and delicious looking cake in you hand. You would see those beggars looking at the cake with their eyes wide open and tongue hanging outside. Some of them might even try to snatch the cake from your hands by request or by force.
Now pass by the same street with the same cake but this time completely covered. Very few of the beggars would bother to even have a second look at it. It is part of human psychology.
I agree with your analogy. The common notion of rape that they've tried to teach us is that it isn't about sexual desire (that it's about power and what not). They tried to tell us that in school, and I didn't buy it back then and I'm not buying it now. While I was in school, there had been incidents where girls were sexually harassed (touched, spoken to innapropriately). Definitely the attraction toward the victims of the perpetrators was the first step. I could easily see that had the perpetrators been bold enough, they would have gone as far to rape their victims.
While I do understand that rape could be a means of domination, humiliation etc. I do believe that the sexual attraction factor is downplayed a lot.
Modesty is 100% subjective. There are several tribal cultures where women do not cover their breasts, and wear loin cloths. Those women are in no more danger of being sexually harassed than women who cover themselves. It is all based on the society and current culture, which is always changing. Do not confuse biology with socialization, and do not equate subjectivity with objectivity.
We may have our own perceptions of what we find modest or not, but this is also something defined by Allah. If His order to women is that they have to cover up so much of their body, then it's not for believing men and women to question that should a woman wear something that covers so much of her body or not.
Women are not CAKE. They are human beings. Even your mentality is one shared by rapists, equating women to objects of property. Stop spreading this crap, it only leads to more violence. The more you objectify a woman (which you are doing), the less rights and respect she incurs from you. You may think you respect women, but you only do when they fall into the neat little package you have established for what a woman of worth is. It's EXACTLY the same mentality as rapists.
He is not saying women are cake or that they are not human beings or that they deserve to be raped etc. He is just making the point that everyone has to take their own precautions. In other areas, victims would also be told that they should do something differently.
Let's say if I'm walking on a street somewhere, then I take out my wallet and start counting my $100 bills right in the open, then if I happend to get mugged a few minutes later, even my own family and friends will call me stupid for having done such a thing. Even though ideally I should be able to walk around freely with all the money I want in my hands and nobody should be bothering me but if I tried to do this practically and something happens, I'll be blamed for not having taken my precautions.
Very well said dear Terrible Guy:k:
Re: Liberation by Veil
I came to know about a sister who was born in USA and spent her whole life there. She was brought up in a family where there was no concept of Abaya, but she decided on her own that she should wear abaya. Following is what she shared on an online forum.
[QUOTE]
There was a workshop I once went to, during a diversity conference that I went to a few years back. I think it really holds a strong message. I attended this workshop on the power of language and labels. The presenters went around and taped a label on each person's back, so that others could see it, but the person who had it on could not. We were instructed to walk around and talk to each other while treating each other as our labels said. Some of the labels said to treat the person as a three year old, or as though everything that person says is wrong, or that they're stupid.. etc etc..
So I was wandering around (wearing my hijaab and abaya) and people would look at mine and go like "oh no, we can't talk to you" and such. Then a man came up to me, and began telling me how beautiful i was and that he really wanted a picture of me to keep on his bedroom wall. I felt really uncomfortable as he had sort of backed me into a corner.. thankfully the presenters had us sit down before I spontaneously combusted to take off our labels, read them, and share with everyone how we felt.
There were three people (myself included) who had a label that read "Treat me like a sex object." The other two were females as well, one had her butt grabbed, the other one said she felt completely violated. No one touched me, I only felt uncomfortable. This was merely a simulation of what goes on in real life with our own stereotypes. If I look Arab, they'll act like they don't understand a word that comes out of my mouth, before I even open it; that's a type of label we put on people, or that people put on us. Imagine what goes on in real life, where the environment is no longer controlled; being modest and dressing modestly is a form of protection. Not only that but, when a woman dresses in such a way to attract attention from men, she is equally responsible for the sin of his lustful gaze, as she is the one who invites it upon herself. I don't know about other women, but I have enough sins accumulated on my own, I don't exactly need anyone elses.
[/QUOTE]
May be it is according to your point of view..but i completely disagree with it.Abaya is usually worn on top of other outfits,its not the only thing a woman wears right on top of her skin. Alhamdulillah i have been wearing veil since i was 17 years old and its been a couple of years now,Alhamdulillah in the whole time by the grace of Allah not a single stranger ever tried to touch me while the same was not true for my peers who didn't wear the veil but some wore the hijab while some not,but still they would be the prey of the dirty gazes of men..sometimes touches..sometimes dirty sexual comments.Alhamdulillah in those times i thanked Allah for His guidance. May Allah forgive me if i said anything wrong and guide the entire humanity to righteousness.
It's not according to my point of view. Those are those statistics, and that's the research. It's common sense. It's easier to grab someone when they have something TO grab. Tight clothing is harder to grab than loose clothing.
There are mentally ill (sexually frustrated) people in every society who are not able to find a girl friend due to any reason and wish to satisfy their evil desires through rape. Let us not deny this fact.
It is not a mental illness. It is due to social conditioning and the status of women within a society. The prevalence of rape is found primarily in patriarchal societies.
I also believe that but the problem is that (as I mentioned before) it is not written on their faces that they would commit this crime in future, and there is no use in their execution once they have committed the rape which can't be undone.
Your opinion on their punishment isn't relevant. It's the victims decision, and it provides them consolation that the person can no longer harm them, nor can they harm anyone else. I will even go as far to say that rape is punishable by death in Islam.
You can't say this about 100 % cases. There definitely are a lot of cases where rape is committed only to satisfy one's desires.
Yes, I can. The desire is not about sex, it's about domination. This has been researched for countless years, and countless perpetrators have been interviewed and studied. I explained it to you already. The motivation is dominance and humiliation, and the weapon is sex.
That sounds very good, but the bitter reality is that nature has made woman physically weak as compared to men. How many woman do you know who would be able to physically dominate a man if somehow she is trapped by him in a room ?.
For one, it would allow women the ability to fend off a perpetrator before he could corner her. Women do not often notice the warning signs, and when they do, they don't often have the courage (due to their conditioning), to be completely assertive. They often try to be kind and think of the other persons feelings, instead of their personal safety. This has also been studied. As human beings, we have three responses to fear: flee, flight, and free. When we socialize women to be assertive, to engage in physical activity (i.e. make it part of their upbringing to engage in roughhousing as boys do, to be independently minded, to not value slender wrists over strong muscles, etc), then it is less likely that this will occur. Of course assaults will still happen, but this will diminish the likelihood of them occurring.
This also sounds to be a good idea, but how would you educate men in the streets, who don't come to you for learning. Even if their is an awareness program somewhere, that is in USA. Still the rate of rape is rising there at a very fast rate.
Rape occurs everywhere at at alarming rate, but many governments do not gather adequate statistics on it. We must change EVERY society to respect women as women, AND as equals, and not relegate them to strict gender roles where they are considered lesser, submissive beings.
Re: Liberation by Veil
I'm saying my peace and this is it. Find articles from LEGITIMATE, UNBIASED, and reputable studies. There have been absolutely NO legitimate studies done to back up anything that any of you have said. Every study points in the opposite direction. But fine, continue living in your fairytale land where you engage in victimizing the victim even further. I must admit, you are all textbook examples of what we term the "second rape," or rape of the victim by society.
When you attribute modesty as a personal value to a human being, and when they fail to meet your standards, you devalue them, just as a rapist does. You cannot dehumanize another human being, and have respect for them, while violating their personal boundaries, and violating the only thing they own- their bodies.
You ARE equating women to property by correlating them to money or cake. They are not something to own, they are autonomous human beings with the same rights as everyone else.
I will continue doing my part to research, prevent, and destroy violence against women.
And what do the rest of you do? Sit back, do nothing, complain about the wrongdoings of women (nevermind ignoring the perpetrator), and tell academics and researchers that they're wrong.
Yet you do nothing to aid victims or stop these instances of violence from occuring. You rely on stereotypes and biases which only support cowardice, ignorance, and misogyny.
Golfclap
/out.
Assalamu Alaykum,
Btw, I do not want to indulge in the discussion, just wanted to post a different perspective on the topic since I found it rather interesting: Behind the veil lives a thriving Muslim sexuality - Opinion - smh.com.au. It is a great read, so if someone has time, it is definitely worth reading from a point of view of a Western woman.
And I blogged on it at: Why the Veil Liberates Women - News Analyses - OmerIqbal.com Blog
The real good part that the non-Muslim Western author talked about, which I would not be able to express myself was in this paragraph:
“The West interprets veiling as repression of women and suppression of their sexuality. But when I travelled in Muslim countries and was invited to join a discussion in women-only settings within Muslim homes, I learned that Muslim attitudes toward women’s appearance and sexuality are not rooted in repression, but in a strong sense of public versus private, of what is due to God and what is due to one’s husband. It is not that Islam suppresses sexuality, but that it embodies a strongly developed sense of its appropriate channelling - toward marriage, the bonds that sustain family life, and the attachment that secures a home.”
And then here:
“Many women said something like this: “When I wear Western clothes, men stare at me, objectify me, or I am always measuring myself against the standards of models in magazines, which are hard to live up to - and even harder as you get older, not to mention how tiring it can be to be on display all the time. When I wear my headscarf or chador, people relate to me as an individual, not an object; I feel respected.” This may not be expressed in a traditional Western feminist set of images, but it is a recognisably Western feminist set of feelings.”
While it could be subjective, I think the feeling of a person, especially one trying it out for the first time, was not unnoticed. However, that feeling may not exist with someone who has worn it all their life!
Having said that, this is not a statistical data that can be used to argue for and/or again, and I feel that is not even needed. I do think that the whole question about veil was to introduce modesty, that does not mean that there will be a natural reduction in crime because crime exists in all societies and even at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), there were rapists who were executed by him. If veil would get that to 0, then may be Islamic legal code would not have to worry about punishments relating to rapes and fornication etc. However, that is not the case.
The actual reason, to me, seems to be the fact that a marriage is sacred, and forms the basic building block of a society and Islam wants to protect it. It wants to make sure that husband and wife are channeling their attractiveness towards each other and not towards a third person.
Peace.
Dear, MatineeSiren, being a psychologist doesn't make you an expert. What you have stated in your previous posts are your opinions NOT facts. Just because you read it in a book doesn't make it absolutely correct. Which legitimate, unbiased study have you done or read that makes you think you are 100% correct?
BTW, take it easy, this is a discussion board. :)
^Well said. People need to relax and consider all perspectives instead of emphasizing on one perspective only.
In fact there are Professors of Sociology who think that sexual fulfillment is the major motive of rapists.
Source: Motivation for rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No one here opposed it, pay attention.
I didn't mention any names, I stated a well known fact to agree with his statement. Please understand next time.
Assalamu Alaykum,
"The West interprets veiling as repression of women and suppression of their sexuality. But when I travelled in Muslim countries and was invited to join a discussion in women-only settings within Muslim homes, I learned that Muslim attitudes toward women's appearance and sexuality are not rooted in repression, but in a strong sense of public versus private, of what is due to God and what is due to one's husband. It is not that Islam suppresses sexuality, but that it embodies a strongly developed sense of its appropriate channelling - toward marriage, the bonds that sustain family life, and the attachment that secures a home."
And then here:
"Many women said something like this: "When I wear Western clothes, men stare at me, objectify me, or I am always measuring myself against the standards of models in magazines, which are hard to live up to - and even harder as you get older, not to mention how tiring it can be to be on display all the time. When I wear my headscarf or chador, people relate to me as an individual, not an object; I feel respected." This may not be expressed in a traditional Western feminist set of images, but it is a recognisably Western feminist set of feelings."
For people in the west, and those who have become immune to the environment of it, fail to recognize the root cause of the problem. The environment has affected them so much, that their eyes see only which is immediate and socially normal. God's words, the history of this civilization, and common sense, fall behind then.
Sh. Hamza Yusuf said it best when asked about which should be adopted, Niqaab or Hijaab? at a convention, He replied:
"Lets not dwell into matters which have already been dealt with 1400 years ago. Go read for yourself, and understand it yourself"
The following article does accept that Cultural background plays an important role in the transition of a man into a rapist, it also emphasize that sexual pleasure is also one of the major factors that tempt a rapist to indulge in such an act. The reason of this sexual pleasure has been related to more exposure to** nudity** and consideration of women as sexual objects.
*
Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at Austin and co-author of Pornography: The Production and Consumption of Inequality.
According to him
You ARE equating women to property by correlating them to money or cake. They are not something to own, they are autonomous human beings with the same rights as everyone else.
Nobody is correlating women to money or cake. If you read the examples carefully and make the effort to understand instead of letting your emotions blind your judgement, you would realize that neither the money nor the cake from the above-mentioned analogies correspond to the victim. Rather it is the person who is being attacked/robbed for these things. The cake itself couldn't care less whether it is being eaten by the person bought/baked it or the beggar who stole it from its owner. Same thing with the money. It couldn't care less about who spends it. However the people being robbed of them would be the ones to suffer and they are ones who we relating to victims.
[quote]
I will continue doing my part to research, prevent, and destroy violence against women.
[/quote]
I sincerely hope that your efforts are successful. Not only for violence against women, but to stop all kinds of injustices.
[quote]
And what do the rest of you do? Sit back, do nothing, complain about the wrongdoings of women (nevermind ignoring the perpetrator), and tell academics and researchers that they're wrong.
Yet you do nothing to aid victims or stop these instances of violence from occuring. You rely on stereotypes and biases which only support cowardice, ignorance, and misogyny.
Golfclap
/out.
[/quote]
If I do witness such a crime occuring, then I would like to believe that I'd be able to physically intervene and stop the crime. If not, then I'd at least call the cops and alert them of it. I don't see what more than that I can do, other than to not be part of the problem (as a perpetrator) myself.
The more a woman covers, the more of her is forbidden, and thus, the more sexualized she becomes.
Interesting. If this were true, I would suspect the inverse would also be true...the less she wears, the less sexualized she becomes. This is clearly not the case.
"Sexualization" does not seem to be a function of clothing, whereas modesty is. Yes, what is modest may be subjective, but so what?
Re: Liberation by Veil
Is rape related to how a women dresses or how she flaunts her sexuality? Predatory rape...no. Date-rape...hell yes.
YOU said that revealing clothing seduces men into rape (i.e. correlates). I stated that it does not,
haha...my dear friend..this is one of the most senseless thing i have eva heared....people give much more respect to women in veil then women in bikini...and yeah i m a man(a man who does become "Active" on seeing "open" girls) and i totally disagree with ur above statement...
u r giving example of tribes of south american amazom,somlia etc..u know and i know how much uncivilized these societies r and if u want to implement their examples in today life ,then u r wrong
It all comes down the orders of Allah. There are no ifs and buts with the orders of Allah. If you do have a problem with the orders of Allah, may Allah guide you...
ps: Hijab is an order of Allah.
why not hijab for men?
True liberation is found in the minds and hearts of people. When men stop objectifying women, only then will they be truly liberated. While some believe it helps, a piece of cloth will not provide this, it's only a symbol of perceived status.
Exactly!
I was watching on TV that according to US department of crime, with every single passing minute a girl is being raped in USA.
And when they asked the culprits the reason, 95% of them gave this reason:
The victim was wearing revealing dress that seduced them.
No matter how many times you move the bee away, it would always come back to the flower that is more "colorful" and "sweet smelling" because it is in its nature to be attracted by it.
Do an experiment. Pass by a street full of beggars while having a colorful and delicious looking cake in you hand. You would see those beggars looking at the cake with their eyes wide open and tongue hanging outside. Some of them might even try to snatch the cake from your hands by request or by force.
Now pass by the same street with the same cake but this time completely covered. Very few of the beggars would bother to even have a second look at it. It is part of human psychology.
They are non-muslims, lets talk about our muslims as to why they do it? Was Mukhtaran Mai parading in mini-skirts? Was Dr. Shazia raped in Baluchistan running around in a sleeveless? Women who get raped are NOT at fault, even if they are wearing something that might have caused some animal to go after her. You cannot use this excuse to force them to wear burqas or veils.