Liberal Islam

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

My analogy still applies. How? Say a genius 10 year old writes the instructions that will be easy to understand for other average 10 year olds. He then hands them the same algebra exercises. The average 10 year olds will still not understand because their mental capacity isn't there at the age of 10. First, you are giving them as assignment that is beyond their understanding. Second, you are asking them to do it correctly. The expectation for them to do the exercises correctly is wrong but you can expect them to read out the instructions.

just because something is old doesn't mean it is lacking wisdom. I never say there is no wisdom in religious texts. There certainly is... But to expect everyone to understand it exactly the way you do is ridiculous.

There is nothing in here that I disagree with ... But my claim is that we should seek out those who have been given the algebra and the understanding and training that goes behind it ... I am foremost in saying that we should not just pick up books and try to understand them - we should seek out teachers who have themselves been taught through a legacy of teachers.

[sweefs]

Re: Liberal Islam

no matter how good a teacher is, or how long a legacy, people make their own decisions in the end. well, most of them anyway. i agree that there should be good guidance but ultimately it is an individual's decision.

[QUOTE]
How do we even make divisions with liberal, moderate, etc. I've user the words myself, but I think maybe a person uses these degrees after comparing with themselves. For instance, I don't do hijab, but I try to say my prayers and adhere to the pillars, and I avoid drinking, clubbing, etc etctc. A friend who doesn't pray thinks i'm very religious. To my friend who wears a burqa and hijab, I may be seen as liberal or moderate.
[/QUOTE]

same here.

maybe liberal islam is modified to cater for western values or their concept of morality but i don't think that's limited to liberal islam. many muslims, whether they consider themselves devout or not, do end up compromising certain aspects. obviously it's wrong, but people are prone to picking and choosing.. just that maybe some do it less than others. might be going off on a tangent but this is why i like the idea of ijtihad. being able to question and understand islamic issues is really important, rather than to follow blindly.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

no matter how good a teacher is, or how long a legacy, people make their own decisions in the end. well, most of them anyway. i agree that there should be good guidance but ultimately it is an individual's decision.

same here.

maybe liberal islam is modified to cater for western values or their concept of morality but i don't think that's limited to liberal islam. many muslims, whether they consider themselves devout or not, do end up compromising certain aspects. obviously it's wrong, but people are prone to picking and choosing.. just that maybe some do it less than others. might be going off on a tangent but this is why i like the idea of ijtihad. being able to question and understand islamic issues is really important, rather than to follow blindly.

Peace sweet.i.f

The matter of deviancy from core understandings was well understood at the time of RasoolAllah (SAW) and throughout time. The way to mitigate the deviation is to put some measures in place ... the measures we have are to maintain a chain of tutelage and for those who want to be teachers to be first given permission by their teachers to teach ...

Yes people will still deviate but it will be more controlled than not to have any measures in place at all and it is possible there are still people living today with a pure enough understanding of Islam. The reason why science books have references is for that same reason - to provide referential back up and legitimacy. That is the reason why we have classification of hadith and that is the reason why we have certain hadith where ayaat of the Qur'an are being explained ... Even the early community needed to have explanations and of the early community only about 10 people were muftis - not all the Sahabah would be in that position.

There is a hadith where it was forecasted that there will be 73 sects of Muslims only one of which is on Islam properly. The sign of this group is the one that is the majority ... A majority can best exist when we learn how to submit ourselves to authorities that is Allah (SWT), RasoolAllah (SAW), The Sahabah (RA) and our Rightly Guided Ulema (RA) - who are not un-connected from that golden chain that goes back to the Prophet (SAW).

Ijtehad is not allowed for the commoner to do ... the idea of "being able to question" is itself against the idea of "submission" - which is a central tenet in Islam. Questioning has an adab and a criteria and a limit which we should understand as people who submit to Allah (SWT) ...

[ajazali]

Re: Liberal Islam

^Ijtehad part.
If we have question, the adab is, submit first then question.

[Southie]

Re: Liberal Islam

If one has a question, one would submit it where there are folks knowledgeable, trustworthy and wise from the submitters POV. The best analogy I can find is - active fund managers advocate the individual investor trust them with money. But the dilemma for individual investor is - which manager or mutual fund to trust. For that the individual needs to be knowledgeable to be able to choose the best manager - or "instructor / guide / religious scholar" in this case.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

If one has a question, one would submit it where there are folks knowledgeable, trustworthy and wise from the submitters POV. The best analogy I can find is - active fund managers advocate the individual investor trust them with money. But the dilemma for individual investor is - which manager or mutual fund to trust. For that the individual needs to be knowledgeable to be able to choose the best manager - or "instructor / guide / religious scholar" in this case.

The one who shows the best character and embodies his words most ... And the one who is given approval by many of the other fund managers ... If that does not exist in your analogy then that is a different matter ... But with scholars they are not just the best in knowledge, but at the same time they don't have a commission for how many followers they get ... The ones who do well they can be avoided ...

[Southie]

Re: Liberal Islam

Fair enough. One point where I respectfully disagree

Getting approval from many of the others in and of itself does not mean the scholar is the real deal. For it depends on the knowledge of the others who r giving their approval. And who verifies their qualifications to give such approval.

Conduct embodying words. I think I understand what u mean. I will give u that.

As for commission I thought the scholars get the ultimate reward for addressing questions concerns.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

Fair enough. One point where I respectfully disagree

Getting approval from many of the others in and of itself does not mean the scholar is the real deal. For it depends on the knowledge of the others who r giving their approval. And who verifies their qualifications to give such approval.

Conduct embodying words. I think I understand what u mean. I will give u that.

As for commission I thought the scholars get the ultimate reward for addressing questions concerns.

Peace Southie

That is why it is important to look at their chains not just their immediate approvers, but also their approvers' approvers and so on ...

And this level of information is available.

It is also understood that it is wrong to say such and such a scholar is more knowledgable because to make that remark we need to be at least as knowledgeable ... So yes ... We seek out something that we can easily assess ... Basically whatever a teachers is giving see if they are themselves taking from the same guidance in their own lives ...

Everyone no matter how ignorant has a good idea of good character it is built in to our humanity ... So we should be selecting our scholars on that basis above all other bases.

The scholars do not seek that reward from their flock like the managers seek it from their clients. They are called a flock because the scholars cares about them like a shepherd his sheep ... There is no self interest directly from the sheep that the shepherd seeks ... He is merely caring for them.

[Southie]

Re: Liberal Islam

In principle, I agree with everything you said Psyah.

You indicated we can judge the approvers based on their track record. While I don't have a clue abt ur religion, I have come across some very dignified individuals who makes sense to me at a humanistic level. They appear to be outnumbered by folks who are very keyforous (equivalent of vociferous). So yes one can identify such individuals. Up to 3-4 max comes to mind. Not much choice I think.

But points taken. Take it easy.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Liberal Islam

Islam was designed as a religion for all the times to come, able to stay relevant as the best constitution for personal, social, national and international utilities.

Islam is an open-ended religion which allows maneuverability adopted within the fundamental and ideological perimeters that serve as its core

You follow it because of some undeniable facts that there is a God who has created everything for your life to sustain.

wait wait wait

who said that? you are developing your overall rationale based on these 2 statements .....you are making these statements as if everyone in this universe has a fundamental belief in these statements...

who told you that islam was designed as a religion for all the time to come other than Muslim scholars?

and that islam will be able to stay relevant as the best constitution for personal, social, national and international utilities...wah jee wah....kaya baat hai....kaaya arrogance hai

so are you sure Judaism is not as relevant? what about Buddhism? Hinduism? Christianity? did you study all 50+ religions in this universe to make these statements or are you stating what you read and heard being raised in a muslim community?

very disrespectful statements to all other religions if you ask me

fact of the matter is that 4 out of 5 people on this planet absolutely do not believe in these statements, they do not live by islamic principles, they are not muslims..they have nothing to do with islam and many of them (i mean billions) do not even believe in God....yet they live peacefully and do what is right and dont do what is morally socially wrong ..so what undeniable facts are you talking about?

you dont necessarily need a religion/god to do what is good and not to do what is bad...

[Southie]

Re: Liberal Islam

^ Besh. Bale besh.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

wait wait wait

who said that? you are developing your overall rationale based on these 2 statements .....you are making these statements as if everyone in this universe has a fundamental belief in these statements...

who told you that islam was designed as a religion for all the time to come other than Muslim scholars?

and that islam will be able to stay relevant as the best constitution for personal, social, national and international utilities...wah jee wah....kaya baat hai....kaaya arrogance hai

so are you sure Judaism is not as relevant? what about Buddhism? Hinduism? Christianity? did you study all 50+ religions in this universe to make these statements or are you stating what you read and heard being raised in a muslim community?

very disrespectful statements to all other religions if you ask me

fact of the matter is that 4 out of 5 people on this planet absolutely do not believe in these statements, they do not live by islamic principles, they are not muslims..they have nothing to do with islam and many of them (i mean billions) do not even believe in God....yet they live peacefully and do what is right and dont do what is morally socially wrong ..so what undeniable facts are you talking about?

you dont necessarily need a religion/god to do what is good and not to do what is bad...

Peace sister pheonixdesi

I think your contention with Amal is a bit unfair ... He did not mention other religions and if we look at the world post-Islam and the world pre-Islam - you might see a huge difference ... For one thing idolatry although it still exists after Islam it became more subtle and changed polytheism. There is a lot that the modern world owes to Islam but it is hidden and many people have taken credit for the ideas that were really initiated from Islam.

The atheist belief is recognised by Islam - "That there is no Deity ..." where the two differ is in the exception ... Allah (SWT).

This means after further analysis that Islam acknowledges that God is Unseen and hence not measurable ... By definition God would be according to science "Not there" ... If we find "God" then we know we have found something else ... So as long as atheists and Muslims are concerned we both believe that there is no seeing God.

[X2]

Re: Liberal Islam

As far as seeking out those who are knowledgeable...2 points come to mind

1- who I consider knowledgeable may not be considered knowledgeable by the standard anointed or self declared experts and their fans
2- Islam, or for that matter Christianity and other religions seem to focus on a direct link of human to creator, without the need for interjectors, translators, and professional especially generational clergy industry types.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

As far as seeking out those who are knowledgeable...2 points come to mind

1- who I consider knowledgeable may not be considered knowledgeable by the standard anointed or self declared experts and their fans 2- Islam, or for that matter Christianity and other religions seem to focus on a direct link of human to creator, without the need for interjectors, translators, and professional especially generational clergy industry types.

Peace bro X2

This philosophy of cutting out a scholarly middle is shared by the Salafis. Effectively it produces many religious interpretations and that causes problems.

The direct connection to Allah (SWT) is a fact - The problem is that we have confused the clergy in Islam as intermediaries ... The correct position is guide and servants ... the ulema are there to serve the people not there to represent the people before God. Their role is important - if we throw them out on the false notion that we don't need intermediaries then we will be removing ourselves from the assistance they give us.

Also we have a deep need to form a relationship with RasoolAllah (SAW) - the danger in seeking directness with Allah (SWT) as has been the case is to circumvent the teachings and in turn the honour, position and rank of RasoolAllah (SAW).

Our declaration in faith is Oneness of God in the way it was taught by Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ... That is La-ilahailAllahu MuhammaduRasoolAllah ...

[Southie]

Re: Liberal Islam

Peace sister pheonixdesi

I think your contention with Amal is a bit unfair ... He did not mention other religions and if we look at the world post-Islam and the world pre-Islam - you might see a huge difference ... For one thing idolatry although it still exists after Islam it became more subtle and changed polytheism. There is a lot that the modern world owes to Islam but it is hidden and many people have taken credit for the ideas that were really initiated from Islam.

The atheist belief is recognised by Islam - "That there is no Deity ..." where the two differ is in the exception ... Allah (SWT).

This means after further analysis that Islam acknowledges that God is Unseen and hence not measurable ... By definition God would be according to science "Not there" ... If we find "God" then we know we have found something else ... So as long as atheists and Muslims are concerned we both believe that there is no seeing God.

The religion you follow may frown upon idol worship. And that is fine. But there ar those who worship idols. And to them some of tube customs you follow make no sense. And that is fine too.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

The religion you follow may frown upon idol worship. And that is fine. But there ar those who worship idols. And to them some of tube customs you follow make no sense. And that is fine too.

Peace Southie

I didn't understand all of that ...

[Southie]

Re: Liberal Islam

Your post expressed.some reservations abt idolatry. That's what I was referring to.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

Your post expressed.some reservations abt idolatry. That's what I was referring to.

I don't know what you mean regarding "tube customs"

[X2]

Re: Liberal Islam

Peace bro X2

This philosophy of cutting out a scholarly middle is shared by the Salafis.

Peace man- aspects of my viewpoints may be philosophy shared by druids, rastafarians, zoroastrians, and the jedi. I can't help it.

Effectively it produces many religious interpretations and that causes problems.

amigo...the bigger problems are caused due to religious interpretations by those who consider themselves as scholars with influence or following, not your avg dude on the street.

The direct connection to Allah (SWT) is a fact - The problem is that we have confused the clergy in Islam as intermediaries ... The correct position is guide and servants ... the ulema are there to serve the people not there to represent the people before God. Their role is important - if we throw them out on the false notion that we don't need intermediaries then we will be removing ourselves from the assistance they give us.

No, its not that people in general confused clergy as intermediaries, its a position that the clergy wants to be in, position themselves to be in....in pretty much every religion. They have made it into a business...essentially reverting to what they were before jesus pbuh overturned the tables at the temple of Muhammad pbuh struggled against the commercial nature of kaaba which was a money making venture of the Quraish

Their correct position is guide and servant, yes. Thats not what many are like.....putting themselves on a pedestal and acting as something that they are not and should not be.

A guide needs to be knowledgeable, aware, enlightened... that guide I can follow. The ignorant narrow minded ones screaming a looped mental track of hellfire and brimstone, political rhetoric in microphones, spouting off divisive statements for other religions, and with other schools of thought..I have no time for. I can only learn what not to do by observing them.

Of those who are not like that personality wise, the question of knowledge comes. I can not discuss interest with someone who has only a rudimentary understanding of financial instruments. I can't discuss zakat and 401Ks with someone who has no understanding of taxation, investments and all.

Also we have a deep need to form a relationship with RasoolAllah (SAW) - the danger in seeking directness with Allah (SWT) as has been the case is to circumvent the teachings and in turn the honour, position and rank of RasoolAllah (SAW).

I dont need a maulvi to form a relationship with the prophet, especially a type which can not differentiate between time and place, culture and religion, and personal preferences versus personal example.

Having a good guide is always helpful.
But its better to not have a guide than have a bad, incompetent, self serving guide.
Too many people are following the latter kind. If I can't find a good one, I am better off on my own than be misled by a bad one.

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Islam

amigo...the bigger problems are caused due to religious interpretations by those who consider themselves as scholars with influence or following, not your avg dude on the street.

Brother X2

Here you are not disagreeing with me ... I am saying a free reign on religious interpretation is bad because it opens the doors to the very people you speak about above ... even I was not talking about the avg dude on the street ... The avg dude on the street will be just that avg ... However, free interpretation may seem to sideline the wanna be scholars but it will also open up more wanna be "Salafis" - Or people who believe themselves to be enlightened with the direct connection to Allah (SWT) ... On one side we have the problem of the dodgy bazaari types of molvis and on the other hand we have the issue of a radical element surfacing that claims to be pure from all that molvi stuff ... but ends up becoming militant and oppressive in other ways.

Following scholars as you say would be good if you can find the right scholar - so let's leave it at that ...