Liberal Extremism

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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:salam2:

**Published on March 29, 2012, at **Liberal Extremism | Pakistan Insider What is your views on this article? :slight_smile:

Long beard, shalwar kameez (shalwar above ankles), black abaya, an ‘astaghfar!’ here, a ‘tauba tauba!’ there. What comes to your mind? EXTREMIST TALIBANI people, who disrespect women, keep them locked up like cattle, explode at opportune moments and are so conservative that they’ll soon categorize the iPhone as haram! Right?

Well I’m not going into that debate today. Instead, let me throw some more words at you and see what they bring to your mind:
Sleeveless, spaghetti string, tank tops, drain pipe jeans, nose in the air as if everyone else stinks, clothes so thin they leave little to the imagination, utter disrespect for parking laws (sometimes all laws), Urdu yuck! Dupatta huh? Cleavage YES! The other side of the bridge.

NOW what comes to mind? ‘Burger’ maybe? Well, I refer to this phenomenon as ‘Liberal Extremism’.

Everywhere you go these days in Pakistan you hear about the religious fanatics, but why doesn’t anyone care to talk about this liberal extremism? I personally think this segment of our society has taken to the other extreme.

It’s very easy to gang up on a person who won’t allow his wife or daughters to work and tells them to cover up, but what about the person who drinks alcohol, doesn’t know where his daughters (or wife) are, whether it’s morning or the middle of the night, and happens to have this very close female friend that his wife doesn’t know about. Isn’t this another extreme?

For our beloved elite, underground dance parties are the rage nowadays where drinking is the norm and the venue is marked with valet parking and bouncers.

Okay fine! I’ll stop with the one way traffic and give you the liberals’ perspective too:* It’s our life! We can do whatever we want to do, and we don’t meddle in other people’s business….*
*
Hmmm…* Does anyone recall the Mehran being smashed on Sea View by a member of our humble elite? Or the party where a Bugti grandson was killed? What about the in-your- face, ‘thought provoking’, lawn adverts? Or the articles in a famous English daily about a lesbian and gay man coming out of their shell?

Aren’t these things just as influential and just as bad as the other extreme is perceived to be?

If we want to raise a finger against women’s oppression by religious extremists, shouldn’t we also raise our voices against women being exploited in the name of art and fashion? Do we choose to remain silent because it’s politically more expedient to do so?
Don’t get me wrong… I’m not someone who’s against women driving or shopping and I’m a huge supporter of education for women; but there should be a limit to everything. Yes… Even liberalism!

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Issue is this that when women wear skimpy clothes and show off their skin, free thinkers assume and claim that women are exercising their freedom.

When women puts on an abaya, the same free thinkers jump to the conclusion that she must be forced to do such.

'Biased, one sided thinking ' is all I can say.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

Liberal extremism isn't an issue in Pakistan as I don't see liberals killing anyone in the name of liberalism.

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True, but liberal extremists is also but a group of tree huggers as media likes to portray.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/28/angry-hateful-violent-extremist-liberals/

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Re: Liberal Extremism

Oh I agree for countries other than Pakistan, countries which are secular and hence where liberalism can affect things on a mass scale. In Pakistan its limited to twitter ranting and internet.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

extremist are those who impose their ideologies/views/lifestyle on others. are the women who wear sleeveless or wearing 'revealing' clothes forcing other women to dress the same way? if they are, then you can label them as extremist. but if they choose to wear whatever they want, not bother anyone else, not forcing anyone else to do anything, why would you call them extremist?
i don't call someone a religious extremist because he has a beard or because they wear burqa. but if anyone tells me that I must adhere to a certain lifestyle, dress in a certain way, or that I cannot express my views, then I will call them a religious extremist. tolerant people who allow others to live the way they want, who support freedom of speech and expression shouldn't be labelled as extremist, doesn't matter if they are religious or non-religious.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

Question: Why does liberal v/s conservative debate always boils down to whether women should be caged or cleavaged?

Women rights (or wrongs) and Sexual behaviors seem to be the only issues we are facing when it comes to such debates.

P.S. elite <> liberal

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Re: Liberal Extremism

Personally, I think the word extremist is thrown around far too liberally. (no pun intended)

Having a very specific view on something does not make one an extremist. Imposing or attempting to impose one's ideology/views on others and taking away others' choices is what makes someone an extremist.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

A liberal extremist would be a Marxist;I think the real liberal extremists of the present era dominate western Europe and north america.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

There is indeed something so inherently sexist and superficial about these Liberal vs Conservative debate because everything essentially boils down to appearances.

However, as far as Pakistan or Pakistanis are concerned, it is my view that 'liberal' is probably the most used and abused word, and it is quite saddening. Most people who wear their 'liberalism' on the sleeves are, in my experience, are just as rigid, paranoid and dogmatic as the 'extreme' Conservatives they like to oppose, and eventually overtake.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

This discussion automatically assumes that the masses are incapable of rational thought. If someone is wearing islamic clothes, they are probably brainwashed by mullahs. If someone is wearing western clothes, they are probably brainwashed by the liberals. All people want is individual liberty, coz Allah ta'ala has blessed us with free will. And each of us is capable of exercising it. It is when these folks on either side start getting involved in making laws, it creates a problem.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

^
laws are there :) we were give free will just needed to make sane choice to abide the laws without having fear of getting brainwashed by the liberals or mullahs, neither both can brainwash us if we at very first place know what are these laws.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

Too many people focusing too much on appearances, its painful to see this level of stupidity. People on both sides need to up their brains/thinking a bit to more important and complex arenas of human personality.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

You are the person who liked the post which talked about women caged/cleavage.

Ask yourself. ;)

Yes, there is reality based term as Liberal Extremism.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

There is no such thing as Liberal extremists. Either a person is extremist or liberal.

An Extremists can be portraying himself as religious, liberal, moderate or whatever … with one common factor and that is, an extremist would be seen trying to impose or forcefully persuade others to follow what that extremist believe or value (by force if he can).

As for liberal, be that person portray himself as religious, liberal, moderate or whatever … a liberal would be following Quran and teaching of Prophet (SAW) in every way, that each and every individual in this world is going through own test and what one does with his life is person’s own responsibility, and it is person who would be answerable of what that person does to Allah alone, and that also after death.

As long as a person does not interfere with the lives of others around him, no one should try to disturb him or impose own will over him. On the other hand, if that person try to interfere with lives of others (become extremist) than a liberal would consider that his duty to fight that extremist, because that would be infringing with his own right too.

For instance ... if someone (an extremist) believes that he can molest any women he sees (or do suicide attack on people he disagree), than a liberal would kick his arse … but if and extremist wants to molest himself (or do suicide without harming anyone) in private then liberal would damn care.

Message in Surah Kafaroon is best teaching example of a person, that liberal follows … I am not putting down translation of Surah kafaroon, but the principle what it teaches ... and that is:

I do not believe or value what you believe or value
You do not believe or value what I believe or value.
I would not believe or value what you believe or value
You would not believe or value what I believe or value

For you is your believes and values
For me is my believes and values

A Liberal believe all above including ... ‘For you is your believes and values’

So, liberal follow their beliefs and values, but do not interfere with the beliefs and values of others (at least not forcefully) … and also believes that it is right of all (given by Allah) to have believes and values what they want.

[Obviously, as long as that believes and values do not interfere with believes and values of others … because when a person has right to have believes and values different from others, that person has no right to interfere with believes and values of others] …

But an extremists believes all above except ... ‘For you is your believes and values’

And it is that reason, and extremist tries to impose or persuade others using force, to believe and value what he himself (extremist) believes and values … (extremists can kill someone, blow himself to kill who do not have believes and values same as him, cut throat and play football with the head of those who he finds have different believes and values, and so on …

Note: It does not matter what an extremist believes and values (religious or nudism), he would try to impose what he believes and values on others by force … whereas a Liberal may have any believes and values (religious or nudism), he would not try to impose his believes and values over others … rather if he wants to, maximum he would do is talk about it and that is all.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

When liberals become anti-religious, they become extremists.

Both religious or liberals/irreligious schools of thoughts, have tendency to become extremists.

Somehow liberals (so called religiously indifferent) and irreligious people think they cannot be called extremists.

Talk about self-praising, pompous, arrogant, vainglorious attitude, to mislead people. :snooty:

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Re: Liberal Extremism

No doubt, you can find extremists following every thoughts, rules, believes, values, etc … and that is the reason you cannot call people with one though or other as extremists, but you can call those who show tendency of extremists as extremists.

Unfortunately, one finds extremists mostly among people who have some sort of rigid ideology, especially ideology that they think should be imposed over the world, on all people, by force or whatever.

You are right that a liberal can be extremists too, but nature of liberalism and its meaning means … to liberate oneself from constraints and promote tolerance (what Quran also promotes) … itself try to keep a person away from becoming extremists … but then possibility of a liberal becoming extremist cannot be ruled out …

So, if that happens, a liberal becomes extremist, one cannot call that person ‘liberal’ anymore (that person gets outside the fold of liberalism).

Same way when a Muslim becomes extremist, one cannot call that person ‘Muslim’ anymore (that person becomes Khwarji … gets outside the fold of Islam).

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Re: Liberal Extremism

Agree with the essence of your post.

Old example of so called secular/liberal France can be used here.

There are some 'liberals' who have nothing better to do than day in and day out lash out religions, religiosity and religious people.

These people are "extremists".

Added: Why not call those people "non-Muslims" or "kaafirs" then? Why give them a name as "Kharijis"?

You want Liberal Extremists not be called liberal at all, and want to call them simply "extremists" (you want to remove the word 'liberal")....... then why not same treatment to those who act outside Islamic teaching as non-Muslims/Kaafirs?

We had this discussion before. :)

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Excusing myself from what Sa1eem said ... There are indeed fascists of both kinds liberals and conservatives ... Liberal fascists around the world are responsible for most of the violent protests actually ...

We have our own set of people on this forum who would sooner see people like TUQ killed for no reason other than the fact that he is religious .... Whereas the same people spend a lot of time trying to show up groups like Taliban for their cruel violence and associate anyone with them ...

It is a tactic to associate center tolerant people as associated to either side ... Many fascist conservatives will disassociate with such people for being too liberal and many liberals will dissociate with such people for being too conservative ... Both making the mistake of confusing the center tolerant people as being with the other ... This is because no group wants to view themselves as fascist ... But a simple test is to ask oneself ... Would you be pleased if someone is killed? If the answer is yes for anyone ... I mean anyone ... Then there is a fascist in you ...

Tolerant people do not desire gruesome deaths ... Not even for their opponents.

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Re: Liberal Extremism

^Yes.

Intolerance by people to wish death of opponents/cursing is extremism.

I do not see how people who claim to be 'civil' by any means and even those who claim to be 'liberals' can do that?