Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

I am really surprised that how many politicians, many lawyers (even past judges) and many journalists are doing contempt of court and still getting away with it?

Is it not obvious that after 3rd of Nov emergency, Supreme Court gave it legal cover so to call that act of declaring emergency illegal and unconstitutional is certainly contempt of court and I believe that Supreme Court should take notice of such people whoever they maybe, and punish them. As for if judges can be restored using resolution or constitutional amendment, I think that PPP in their thinking is right while PML(N) is completely wrong. Let see how this can be explained.

Let say that if Chief Justice, President, Prime minister, Minister or anyone in the country has dispute on certain issue with someone, then where they can go to resolve their dispute?

It is obvious that they would have to go to Court and judges in court have right to resolve that dispute. Once judge resolve a dispute than that becomes legal regardless of judge made mistake or gave a decision wrongly (intentionally or unintentionally). For instance, President sent reference on CJ Iftikhar to SJC but Supreme Court decided that SJC should not investigate CJ, they did not even gave any reason but since they gave verdict, it became legal (however wrong or right the decision was).

On 3rd Nov, President changed the Supreme Court composition of judges. Right or wrong of that change can only be challenged in Supreme Court and only Supreme Court could have decided it, and Supreme Court did decided that it was legal, thus gave the decision that whatever step Musharraf took on 3rd of Nov was legal, hence now nothing can be done about that.

Confusion is arising because normally head of state in democracy could not have done that easily and if they had done then most likely armed forces would not have accepted that and would have intervened. In old days, whenever ruler wanted to they use to do that, change the judiciary whenever they wanted to. Fortunately or unfortunately, when Musharraf took the step, Armed forces did not interfered neither anyone who had any power to challenge that step did not interfered, establishment accepted it and later new judges gave the step legal cover, so emergency step taken by President Musharraf became legal.

If Supreme court judges had not given legal cover to 3rd November step than only that step would have been illegal and could be challenged. Such step by army chief is not stoppable as any action by army chief is more or less revolution in the country and only a power that is stronger than army could stop that, for instance mass support of public that includes lower officers and jawans of armed forces, but in Pakistan that there is no power stronger than army.

This support by mass can only happen if politicians are respectable and masses love them and loathe armed forces or any other powers going against them, But Pakistani politicians are mostly crooks and thugs, so people may vote them because there is no choice, but most of people do not care for them.

Now, if parliament brings resolution to restore judges than judges in office would have all right and would surely call armed forces for support and stop illegal means to depose them or replace them, as that restoring would be illegal. Certainly judges can be restored but they can only get their job back by legal means (as they have lost their job at present) and that legal means would be proper appointment that only President (with advice of Prime Minister and CJ) could do. Nevertheless, for Ch Iftikhar to replace CJ Doger would be completely illegal and I believe that Doger would have all right to contest Iftikhar appointment as CJ as he would lose his office that he legally holds.

If anyone thinks that restoration would be legal, especially restoration of Ch Iftikhar as CJ, then they could not decide just because they believe so, but they have to go to court and ask court to decide (that is asking Doger that he is holding post illegally and it would be unlikely that he would accept that).

Anyhow, there is another big problem by calling, accepting or trying to make present judiciary illegal. That is we cannot chose one thing right and other wrong, for instance, Supreme Court decision of 3rd Nov wrong and all other cases decided by Supreme Court and other Pakistani courts as right. Thus, if judges of this judiciary are holding their office illegally than result of all cases, irrespectively of what it was, that was decided after 3rd of Nov in Pakistan becomes illegal and invalid (as those that gave the verdicts were holding the post illegally as they were not judges, or were working under Chief Justice who himself was holding post illegally). Thus, all verdicts of Pakistani courts after 3nd Nov become illegal verdicts without any value. If all their verdicts are illegal than all cases they have decided, including NRO, and possible even election of 2008 would become illegal.

So, there is no way that parliament can make post 3rd November judges as judges holding their office illegally, neither can replace CJ. What parliament can do is bring new laws by changing constitution that may amend the situation without making past actions of 3rd Nov illegal or questing that. Else, it is possible they may see army moving in to replace the parliament (and army would be right to do so) as if these politicians would do such illegal act, they would be destabilising Pakistan and would be bringing anarchy in the country.

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

1st what happened on 3rd Nov was no emergency, but a martial law and it was issued by Mushrraf as Army chief & not as the president. For that he deserves to be tried under article 6the of the constitution for treason.

2nd, 7 member bench of the pre-pco SC issued stay order against the PCO/martial law. Therefor any order/verdict/ruling issued by PCO court is null and void and has no legal standing.

3rd, all these years you have been defending a illegal dictator who came to power through a military coup & here you're questioning the legality of NA resolution?

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

Martial law is revolution and only army or mass movement where army joins the movement, can bring revolution in any country. If revolution succeeds than it means people are with revolution and such revolution brings new laws, new government and new judiciary. Normally, when revolution comes than old rulers or people in power get hanged. It was fortunate that revolution in Pakistan did not hang those against whom revolution came (other than revolution brought by Zia). When revolution comes than new laws become new reality and new legality. Once revolution comes successfully, steps taken by the person who brought revolution is not called illegal steps but that becomes legal steps. So what is big deal about that or what Musharraf did after revolution that came in 1999 (what happened on 3rd was just extension of 1999 revolution)?

I believe that Pakistani politicians are mostly corrupt and thugs, and thus I think that Pakistan needed the revolution in 1999. Only difference is that, 1999 revolution was very peaceful and bloodless. I think that Pakistan needs a revolution that can bring lot of changes ... that means ........ .

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

What Mushrraf did in 1999 and again in 2007 was illegal. When you break the laws (do illegal things) you go to jail and Mushrraf has done it more than once. Therefore, he deserves to be in jail.

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

Sa1eem, you back an illegal person who has been parasite on the powers. Despite of disliking of most Paksitani he has shamelessly refused to step down. Instead he has been on rampant since March 9. Butchering and literally peeing on constitution. He is like.....I will do whatever I want.......kisi ke baap mein himmat hai tou mujhe hata kar dikhaaye. He even went on to sell his uniform to the corrupt politicians he has been crying about and swearing about for 8 years. The guy has gone mad. He is like Saddam and other tyrants of recent history who has forgot their death. 2 takkay ka mulazim, qaum ka hakim ban betha hai. &*&^%$%

Yet you find courage to come and write about constitution.

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

As for breaking constitution, breaking laws, all these corrupt and thug politicians in power break constitution and laws every day in many ways. They are the most rotten breeds of animals in third world countries, especially Pakistan, and by doing corruption, nepotism, and abusing power while in public offices, they deserve getting hanged. I think that doing corruption and abusing public offices is as good rather worse than treason with the country, voters and trust that voters have given them. These are the people that not only destroy the name of the country but destroy economy, security, as well as future of the country and bring misery to the people, especially poor and most vulnerable.

It was a big favour to Pakistan when army acted against these political animals in Nov 1999. Only problem is that Musharraf is too soft and considerate. It is only army that can bring revolution in any country and I am waiting for the day when Pakistan army would become patriotic and courageous enough to disregard not only constitution but all rules and regulations, and bring real revolution in Pakistan acting with clinical ruthlessness towards all looters, thugs, corrupts, and disgraced people of Pakistan, bringing power to middle class patriotic community of Pakistan who can serve the country selflessly and do not work for their own pocket.

Well, that is what I want. Happy? :)

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

Very good and accurate analysis. If the Nov 3rd actions are all illegal, and they can all be overturned by a simple resolution or Executive order, then that would have happened in the last two months - since the Muree declaration was signed. For example the PPP-led government has actually tabled a Parliamentary Legislation bill to undo the post 3rd November PEMRA ordinace - which in effect means they recognise it’s legal validity in the first place, and that they cannot be overturned by simple resolutions/executive order Here are some links explaining that:-

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Apr-2008/14/index6.php

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=106643

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

Also, if Musharraf's actions of 12 Oct 1999 are all illegal, then surely those judges who took the PCO oath in January 2000 are also illegal? Judges such as Ch. Iftikhar, Bhagwandas and Ramday. That's something that some people miss in their animosity towards Musharraf alone.

I won't even go into how Ch. Iftikhar and company went onto validate Musharraf's military coup in May 2000 on the basis of "doctrine of necessity".

Or how Ch. Iftikhar was one of two judges who visited the Aiwan-e-Sadr in June 2001 to "persuade" President Rafiq Tarrar to resign and make way for Musharraf to assume the Presidency.

Let alone how Ch. Iftikhar took the oath on the LFO-amended constitution in June 2005, when he took over as Chief Justice.

Or finally, how he was one of the 5 judges who again validated the LFO, 17th Amendment, two offices bill etc etc in a judgement in 2005.

:)

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

Reza bhaijan. How could the EX CJ do such a thing. :mad:

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

People argue this issue, based on what conclusion they want to reach. Since you are a Musharaf supporter, so you talk about SC giving “cover” to the PCO on November 2nd, and you ignore that the original SC was kinda fired just before that.

Those who oppose Musharaf, argue that since the original action of firing many SC judges on Nov 2nd was illegal (struck down by 7 member bench of SC on the same day), appointment of new judges to SC was irregular and any decision by the SC after that (to give its approval) is irregular as well.

So, its more like discussing whether glass is full or empty. People see it the way they chose to see it. To dumb down such a complex legal issue into a petty “contempt of court” argument is merely a way of insulting the intelligence of people participating in this discussion. This is akin to saying “I don’t have an argument so you should just shut up!” :hehe:

How this issue will be resolved i.e. full constitution package or resultion+executive order or whatever remains to be seen. The problem with constitution package is more logistical than anything. It will include many other things, some of which will be unpalatable to some people, it requires 2/3rd majority and after the likely Presidential veto, it will require another 2/3rd vote. So it will take more time. Thats all.

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

:)

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

I hope 58-2B is in the constitutional package, rather than just the talk about the judges. This will stop all the arguments whether the President should dissolve the parliament or sack the govt. Pakistanis should learn from the past experience, and realise that in Pakistan 58-2B is not necessary and does not stop the Greatest Pakistani Institution - The Army, taking over if required. :)

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

At last, Surpeme Court (Doger and Company) strikes back. Today, Supreme Court has taken Suo Mota action against GEO news chief 'Absar Alam' on 'contempt of court' considering his news about some Supreme Court Judges aired on GEO as equal to scandalising judges and exploiting Court. All Channels and news papers are instructed that they should not give any news regarding judges. Absar Alam has to appear in court tomorrow. Editor, reporter and publisher of Jang are also called'

I think that if Supreme Court had acted earlier then we would not have seen so much ‘contempt of court’ happening on Pakistani Media by politicians, Lawyers, Journalists and armchair analysts, that started after 3rd Nov 2007. It would be nice to see some PML(N) politicians and Nawaz paid journalists and lawyers fined or sent to Jail on contempt of court charges :)

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

You mean Dogar strikes back? :hehe:

When the real supreme court struck back, investigated fraud, provided justice to poor, freed innocents, they are ‘idiots’, ‘losers’, ‘jahils’, but when they try to save their butts by threatening journalists, they are termed heroic? lol what double standards.

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

so when do we get to see "Legality of May 12 killings and terming it as whose yo daddy", oh wait, that is forbidden.

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

You mean they struck back by: :hmmm:
Investigated fraud = by stopping SJC to investigate Iftikhar ?
Provided justice to poor = By depriving them admission so that Arsalan could study?
Freed innocents = So that these freed innocents can do suicide and blow peaceful Pakistanis?

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

No, so that he can probe the dictator’s lavish farmhouse, but I am sure you will start yapping about how it was a cheap 1lakh rupiya plot and everyone who dares say its lavish is a crook, uneducated, jahil, non-english speaking, uncertified muslim league person.

Ok, now Im asking for a 50 para long post! runs away

Re: Legality of Resolution for restoring Judges

:omg: