Re: Lebanon fighting
Did you also learn about the hypocrisy of the Arabs today?
...and good ol' fashion desi duplicity.
Re: Lebanon fighting
actually the Palestinians are tiny compared to Hezbollah, but these militants are still giving the army a run for its money.
Re: Lebanon fighting
Have you ever been to Jordan? Palestinians in Jordan were only given citizenship until the late 80s. They are now issue passports only for travelling which give them no rights, and heavily restrict travel to or from the West Bank.
In 1969 and 1970 there was a tremendous amount of violence by Palestinian fighters against the Jordanian population, one of the most famous incidents being the beheading of a Jordanian soldier and Palestinian fighters playing soccer with his head, and several assassination attempts made towards King Hussein. It ended in "Black September" of 1970, with the involvement of Zia and Pakistani troops conducting raids against the Palestinian fighters. Thousands were killed. Conservative estimates are around 7,000-8,000, but it was probably much higher.
Re: Lebanon fighting
Did you also learn about the hypocrisy of the Arabs today?
no i didnt. if you follow this issue to any extent you will be of one of two oppinions or along the lines of. 1 its an armed terrorist group that needs dealing with, 2 the lebanese government is under the US influence and will come down hard on anyone who doesnt subscribe to their view.
you are famous for being unreasonable but will you please answer my question: what are your views on palestinians, occupied areas, possible solutions and related matters?
Re: Lebanon fighting
... what are your views on palestinians, occupied areas, possible solutions and related matters?
Palestinians - Feel pity for them but they do not do much to alleviate it themselves either. I am in no way condoning Israeli atrocities though. Should the Palestinians ever get the upper hand they should repay them.
Occupied areas - The occupied areas are a result of loosing wars to Israel.
There are many high level solutions however the ground realities are always different. For example, the west bank to be in total Palestinian control is not going to happen because the Jordon river is one the primary sources of water to Israel and to have that in the hands of Palestinians, is suicidal to them. Why do you think Golan heights is so important to Israel, one reason is because the water sources come from it.
Re: Lebanon fighting
the real question is.. where is hezbollah in all of this? for people who issue fatwas against a president kissing his old teachers hand in a different country they're sure quiet about bloodshed in their alley
maybe they dont wanna attract too much attention after all that stuff from before
Re: Lebanon fighting
kehkasahn yah no jalsay jaloos, but then how many jalsay jaloos have u seen for darfur and how many blow hards have screamed their throats hoarse on those topics. ...why...the answer is quite clear...no political currency. mullah hos need that political chillar to run their dhanda...this gives them nothing
Because I have a couple of Sudanese friends from the Masjid and one lives in a city pretty close to Darfur...
He said, it's more tribal than anything...It has just been politicised for the obvious reasons...
Question: Would a war between the Mandokhel and the Achakzais in Pakistan make international news?
Re: Lebanon fighting
Have you ever been to Jordan? Palestinians in Jordan were only given citizenship until the late 80s. They are now issue passports only for travelling which give them no rights, and heavily restrict travel to or from the West Bank.
In 1969 and 1970 there was a tremendous amount of violence by Palestinian fighters against the Jordanian population, one of the most famous incidents being the beheading of a Jordanian soldier and Palestinian fighters playing soccer with his head, and several assassination attempts made towards King Hussein. It ended in "Black September" of 1970, with the involvement of Zia and Pakistani troops conducting raids against the Palestinian fighters. Thousands were killed. Conservative estimates are around 7,000-8,000, but it was probably much higher.
Not only that, Egypt occupied Gaza for 19 years and Jordan the West Bank for 19 years but none of them created a Palestinian country?
Why was it that only after Israel took over these areas in 1967 did the whole issue of Palestinian nationalism emerge?
Why not before in 1949 when these areas were under Arab control ?
Re: Lebanon fighting
Question: Would a war between the Mandokhel and the Achakzais in Pakistan make international news?
No it won't.
But since the middle east is the epicenter of news today, a conflict between Palestinians and Lebanese will make international news
Re: Lebanon fighting
Not only that, Egypt occupied Gaza for 19 years and Jordan the West Bank for 19 years but none of them created a Palestinian country?
Why was it that only after Israel took over these areas in 1967 did the whole issue of Palestinian nationalism emerge?
Why not before in 1949 when these areas were under Arab control ?
Good point. Was it because they were OCCUPIED and they did not have the right to carve out a Palestinian state.
Re: Lebanon fighting
No because Egypt considered Gaza part of its territory while Jordan considered the West Bank as a province.
Re: Lebanon fighting
No because Egypt considered Gaza part of its territory while Jordan considered the West Bank as a province.
So do you mean to say to the Arab states there was really never to be a State of Palestine but there should not be a State of Israel.
Re: Lebanon fighting
The partition plan of the British Mandate originally called for a separate state of Palestine and a state of Israel. The maps were drawn for the partition, but the Palestinians refused what was offered. The Israelis declared a state in 1948 and almost immediately the surrounding Arab countries declared war. They lost, but Jordan controlled the West Bank, including Jerusalem, and Gaza was annexed by Egypt.
Another historical note - the partition plan was loosely modeled on the partition of India and Pakistan (because that went SO well) and the Indian government was opposed to the partition of the British Mandate in Palestine.
Re: Lebanon fighting
...and good ol' fashion desi duplicity.
What?
Re: Lebanon fighting
no i didnt. if you follow this issue to any extent you will be of one of two oppinions or along the lines of. 1 its an armed terrorist group that needs dealing with, 2 the lebanese government is under the US influence and will come down hard on anyone who doesnt subscribe to their view.
you are famous for being unreasonable but will you please answer my question: what are your views on palestinians, occupied areas, possible solutions and related matters?
Are you really that blind that you cannot see how the other Arabs are either mute or support the Lebanese actions against Palestinians but are always cryign about Israeli actions against Palestinians?
As for my views, I believe in a two state solution and for Pakistanis to stop butting their heads into Arab matters.
Re: Lebanon fighting
^waste of time
your too 'gujrati bhaiya' to discuss these matters. you leave how pakistanis react to certain issues to pakistanis!
Re: Lebanon fighting
What?
The "Desi Duplicity" that someone mentioned refers to the fact that Zia and Pakistani troops were responsible for the killing of at least several thousand Palestinian refugees during "Black September" when many of the refugees were being driven out of Jordan.
It may also refer to the rumors that mujahideen from Afghanistan offered (supposedly Israel) to go fight against and overthrow the PLO because the PLO was so closely aligned with the Soviet Union - an alliance they never benefited from.
Re: Lebanon fighting
Because I have a couple of Sudanese friends from the Masjid and one lives in a city pretty close to Darfur...
He said, it's more tribal than anything...It has just been politicised for the obvious reasons...
Question: Would a war between the Mandokhel and the Achakzais in Pakistan make international news?
We have a lot of Sudanese refugees in our community. I have a good friend who calls it genocide. Maybe the terminology you use just depends which tribe you happen to belong to.
Re: Lebanon fighting
amana can i first congratulate you on your knowledge. secondly i think the information you have provided shows the various arab governments determination to deal with armed groups. perhaps too harshly. it also shows the cowardness of these governments not to deal with the core issue. the core issue is the displacement of the palistinians.
i dont disagree with the decision to leave them as refugees, as their claim to palestine remains in place more strongly. since they have taken this decision they should be more proactive in returning these people.
thats what they are not able to do as israel is too strong for them to deal with.
the theory that countries will support the pal cause and allow for armed groups to destabilise their own country is wrong.
as far as this thread goes and post#1, most everyday reported happenings around the middle east are not discussed on GS. totally cant see his problem, i think he just wanted to take a dig at pakistanis and their support for the asap implentation of a palestinian state.
Re: Lebanon fighting
The partition plan of the British Mandate originally called for a separate state of Palestine and a state of Israel. The maps were drawn for the partition, but the Palestinians refused what was offered. The Israelis declared a state in 1948 and almost immediately the surrounding Arab countries declared war. They lost, but Jordan controlled the West Bank, including Jerusalem, and Gaza was annexed by Egypt.
Another historical note - the partition plan was loosely modeled on the partition of India and Pakistan (because that went SO well) and the Indian government was opposed to the partition of the British Mandate in Palestine.
According to the United nations partition plan, West bank and Gaza would have been a part of the Palestinian state. As you mentioned West bank was controlled by Jordon and Gaza by Egypt until the Six day war.
Until that time there was effort to materialize the West bank and Gaza territories into a Palestinian state until Israel occupied them. For the neighboring Arab states it was never a concern to have a independent Palestinian state but it has always been about getting Israel out of there.
If the surrounding Arab states were to ever succeed in ejecting the Israelis out from there, then the territories they occupy would pretty much become a part of their kingdom and I doubt there would ever be any talk of vacating those territories and creating an independent Palestinian state. And if that ever happened then the guns of Palestinians would be turned on their own Arab brethren from their neighboring states.