sheraaz,
i dont want a wall to build up here..if you know what i mean…i want to research/compare/conclude …if you cant answer politely (and i think i’ve been POLITE ENOUGH), plz dont bother to…
you still havent answered my question,i understand your pts of views, yet my knowledge of shia’ism is not as vast as yours…therefore i ask questions…
lastly, avoid using my name…the nick is there for a reason
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thanks
humsa ho to samnay aaye the question u asked was answered many many times..and i dont think its ur first time on gupshup..u have been here for a while…but anyways as u started to type ur last reply, i felt bad at first that i shouldnt have been rude..maybe u asked that question without any bad intention..and u didnt read the previous discussion over this topic..i would tell u to question anything bout shia belief so u get ur answer and get satisfied with it..but i didnt like ur last sentence..telling me to chill out..harr cheez ki hadd hoti hai and we are only human..if u couldnt take the rude responce..why should i? so chill out
ms communist i wont bother using ur name again..sorry for that
and u can doubt ur books online but i believe my books are all perfect..there are Alim behind my site al-islam.org
find a fault in it and we can discuss about it..
Shia do say Nare Takbeer..Allah HuAkbar
Nare Risalat ..Ya Rasul Allah
Nare Haidry..Ya Ali Madad
lets face it k aap logo ko Ya Ali hamara kehna bura lagta hai..because we dont care for the first three khalifa..there is a hadith by Prophet "Jiska Main Maula Uska Ali Maula"..simple is that..Zikre Ali Zikre Mohummad hai..ek aur hai "Ali mere liye aisay hai Jaisay main Apnay Khuda k liye"
and again we do not consider Imam Ali to have a higher rutba then Prophet..buss aap logo ko takleef is baat ki hai k hum log Imam Ali say itna pyaar kyon kertay hain
sheraaz,
no taqleef here…we’re happy with our beliefs as you are with yours…
“Jis ka may maula, us ka Ali maula”…ok lets take that into consideration:
Maula refers to the LORD, GOD, ALLAH!..we all know, the prophet was a HUMAN and none other…why would he even use that word maula when he was himself submitted to the one and only MAULA OF THE UNIVERSE???
i have nothing against ALI,just answer my question in simple thougths plz…no twisting and turning..no snapping..no nothing..k
Maula = Master
one word can have more then one meaning..please urdu na sikha'o mujhay..thanks
The Prophetic tradition: Ali is the master of all those whom I am master. O Allah! Love him who loves him and hate him who hates him, help him who helps him and forsake him who forsakes him, and turn justice with him whenever he turns
Sherazz,aap ka ye 'analysis' to bilkul ghalat hay.yahan par baat pehlay teen khalifa ki nahi hay.Sunni to nahi kehtay ya abu-bakr madad ya ya umar madad.Not even ya Mohammad madad.Issi tarah agar aap log ya ali madad ki bajaay ya abu-bakr madad kehna bhi shuroo kar do to shikaya to apni jagah qaim rahay gi na!Lihaza baat khulafa ki nahi.
Phir Ali(r.a) say piyaar to main bhi karta hun magar main to nahi kehta ya Ali madad.Lihaza baat piyaar ki nahi baat zarrorat say ziayada aqeedat ki hay.
Unfortunately even sunnis out of bloated reverence to some saints do similar things.So that's what it is about.I know shias have some beliefs that are particular to them that would make no sense to anyone who is not shia but I'm sure you'll agree that saying Ya Allah madad is a beautiful thing and much better than saying ya ali madad.I'm sure you'll also agree that shia faith doesn't hinge on saying ya Ali or ya anybody else madad.So the objection on such a practice isn't targetting shias,neither can such a basic question-considering that it addresses shirk-be dismissed with the kind of rhetoric you are and this forum are used to.
master,God,Creator,what the heck, they are all derivitive of the same word…
who is the master, Creator, Lord, c’mon …ALLAH…not Mohammed, and certainly not ALi…
ok..i can see ur gonna come back with something to defend yourself as i try to do the same..yet no one achieves anything…
howz about u just answer my questions about the right chapters, k?
Agree with sherazz on maula.In urdu we use the word maula to refer to God,but that's not so in arabic,although the meaning is the same in both languages.The usage is what gives rise to confusion.But it would be advisable to drop the word maula while speaking in urdu as it is used so widely in our language for just God,like khuda.
Scholars in India and pakistan are called maulana.X-communist do you know what that means?Strictly speaking it means 'our maula'.Our master to be precise.Every language develops it's own traditions.While maulana is not meant as God at all,maula usually is.meanings not withstanding.
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited November 16, 2000).]
ahmed aap sirf apni taraf say kahain..aap keh saktay hain k sheraz main samajhta hoon k aap iss baar ghalat hain..khair
mere dost shah jahan nay bohut achi misaal di thi kuch din pehlay..u are falling from the cliff..i come to help u but u will say nope dont help me..only Allah will help me..YA ALLAH MADAD..phir aisa hoga k aap meri madad nahi lengay aur aap khayee main girr jaayengay aur phir aapka dhihaant ho jayega..phir main kahoonga “khas kam jahan paak”
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just kidding yaar tum jee’o hazaro saal..so u see my point..Ali is only a waseela..Allah loves Ali ..u will also love Ali from heart if u do some more research on Ali..socho Imam Ali ko hum kyon kertay hain pyaar..isi waja say na k woh hamaray Allah ko bohut pyaar kertay hain..buss bhaee ab bila waja ki fazool behass main koi fayeda nahi..khush raho ..apnay khurchay pe
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communist i hope u are satisfied with ahmeds post..Maula does not mean God!!
[This message has been edited by Sherazz (edited November 16, 2000).]
sheraaz,
me satisfied=never
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(read my previous post regarding my satisfaction)
Ali is only a waseela..Allah loves Ali ..socho Imam Ali ko hum kyon kertay hain pyaar..isi waja say na k woh hamaray Allah ko bohut pyaar kertay hain..
i see ur pt. BUt the last sentence…did the Prophet(s) not love ALLAH also…Did ALLAH not love them? (I mean, he gave preference to them and thats why they became PROPHETS)
see where im going with this?
Yesterday is history,
Tommorow is a mystery,
Today is a gift,
That’s why we call it PRESENT!
Sherazz why should I research? I already love hazrat Ali(r.a.) from heart and I also love all other sahaba from heart.issi wajah say kay woh sab Allah say bohat piyaar kartay or bohat dartay bhi thay!
I find the example you quoted means zilch i.e.nothing.Bhai sherazz kuch to khuda ka khof karo.example ki kuch 'relevance' to honi chahiye na ke nahin?I believe in the paricular case that we are disussing the exmple more suited would be like this.I am hanging from a cliff and I have a choice of saying ya allah madad or ya ali(orsomeone else)madad.Which one would I prefer.That's the question.If you come to save me would you have come from Allah or from someone else?.I find that despite the slight inaccuracy the example you have posted is an excellent one in this regard.Would I be answered if I say 'ya Allah madad'?I said in my earlier post that asking Allah is so much better that asking someone else.I also said that shia faith does not hinge on asking Ali for help.You will remain a shia even if you give that up.I don't even think it is that important a part of shia faith at all.Why insist on it?
P.S.aap bhi khush raho.Mujhay yaqeen hay kay sirf Allah say mangnay par bhi aap khush hi raho gay.
i told u so many times there is no one like Prophet Mohummad..and i hope u dont be silly and compare Prophet with Allah..BUT..i dont know if u know this or not..we believe our 12th Imam, Imam Mehdi will come and rule the world..Jesus will come also, and He will pray behind our Imam..that is our belief and alot of my sunni friends believe it also..i dont know wether u know this or not
Sherazz,
Another question I wanted to ask you.How often do you read the Quran.Do you believe in the spiritual truths enclosed in the Quran.Do you try to reflect upon and understand it?I have some wonderful insights to share regarding shirk.That is if you are interested in learning and can handle some deep thought.It's just that shirk is one sin that will not be forgiven so all muslims sunni and shia should try to avoid any pitfall leading to that.Don't think of it as a sunni/shia thing.
sheraaz,
we believe in ISA (as) coming and asking the molvi to continue with his prayer and that he (ISA) will offer the namaz behind him..its just that we dont believe the molwi is an Imam, Imam Mehdi to be specific....u see...from teh Quran we only know of ONE SOUL that didnt' die but was called up to ALLAH adn that soul is ISA....then how'd you add Imam Mehdi in there?...plz provide an explanation....thanx.
ahmed bhai theek hai..aap ko meri baat samajh nahi aati..i cant do anything bout it..ya to aap samajhna nahi chahtay ya phir aap ko sahi honay ka bohut shok hai..Allah ko Ahlebait aziz hain aur Allah unki sifarish hamaray liye zaroor sunay ga inshallah
Err...hate to posting again and again.But sherazz sunnis do not share that belief.We do believe in coming of imam mehdia and Hazrat Isa but we donot believe imam mehdi who will come is same as shias' 12th imam.That's just a clarification.Now back to the earlier discussion.
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Originally posted by Sherazz:
ya to aap samajhna nahi chahtay ya phir aap ko sahi honay ka bohut shok hai..
[/quote]
There is presumably a difference between the two.Mujhay sahi honay ka shoq to yaqeenan hay.I would hate to have any wrong belief or worng practice.Main samjhna bhi chahta hun kay akhir why do some people insist on asking dead people for help.And is this a part of shia belief?why?
Allah ko zaroor aziz hongay kuch ahlebait and lots of other people too.So?This has no bearing on this discussion.Dare I ask who would you ask for help on that cilff?
P.S.I want you to say something about the question I asked you about Quran.
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited November 16, 2000).]
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bacha’o bacha’o
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ghair liya hai dono nay sheraz ko
dosto main koi Alim to hoon nahi..i m a very gunehgaar banda..and my knowledge is limited..somtimes i have to search for my answers..to be honest with u i dont even consider myself a good muslim..i do want to become one though
so u ever wondered who that Molwi is communist ji? at the moment i dont have any references with me but i will just try to tell u in short what we believe..again its only sheraz talking here..not an Alim by any means..
When Prophet was migrating from Makkah to Medina..He left behind Imam Ali so Imam Ali can give back the belonging of kaafir people..as u know they trusted Prophet so much that they had their valuable things safe with Prophet..so Imam Ali slept on Prophets bed so kuffar can think Prophet is sleeping and Prophet migrated to Medina..Prophet also left behind Imam Ali so he can give them kuffar their valuable things..so think about it Prophet cared so much bout kuffars belonging that he left behind Imam Ali..wouldnt Prophet care bout his religion Islam..Nabbuwwat khatam hoi to Imamat shuru hoi..Prophet wouldnt just leave his religion like that..Imamat will end at qyamat..our 12th Imam, Imam Mehdi dissappeared at the age of 6..He will come back when there is so corruption and so much evil in this world..He will come and rule the world and everyone at the time will be Muslim then..so Prophet Jesus will pray behind our Imam Mehdi..since u dont know all of this..i just wanted to tell u what shia think
ahmed if we say Ya Ali Madad,r u considering we do shirk? and a person who does shirk is a kaafir?
Such Idiocy!!!
The prophet(pbuh) just had to leave someone to take care of ummah just because he left Hazrat Ali(r.a.)to take care of Amanats and then the 12th imam choses to disappear!!Had hoti hay!
Imagine hazrat Ali disappearing!!So who's taking care of that Ummah now?
Sherazz yar I wanted to keep this discussion to shirk as I already said there is a lot in shia belief that makes no sense to others but shirk is one that cannot be forgiven.It's the difference between muslims and non-muslims.That is why that is so important to me.Other differences are there but I wanted not to get into that as I know those are part of shia belief and I want to avoid shia/sunni senario.But with that example sherazz you forced my hand.Once again yaar kuch to khuda ka khof kia karo.An alim you are not!
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ahmed if we say Ya Ali Madad,,r u considering we do shirk? and a person who does shirk is a kaafir?
[/quote]
I hate the 'we' here sherazz.Whose we?
Point is would you believe it is shirk if I proved it?Would you care to make even a slight change in your current practice?
I keep saying that shia faith doesn't hinge on that but would you sherazz conisder yourself to be not a shia anymore if you did change?
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited November 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited November 16, 2000).]
sHERAAZ, aka “DA HONEST AALIM”
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u still havent answered my question…
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itz ok, i understand..u wanna ‘nipat’ with ahmed first,lol…laterz.