Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
121

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

You know nobody wants a war at home.

It was peaceful but it wasn't within the norms of the society. It was far from it. Had he been working within the norms....the Qureish would never have attempted to kill him.

He was challenging the very foundations of their system, it was just that he had not yet been commanded to pick up the sword. But once commanded, he made sure he used it well.

And he also commanded us that if we see any evil, we should stop it by our hands, and if we cant we should stop it by our tongues and if cant we should atleast feel bad in our hearts...and beyond that there is no eman.

Our problem is we dont even feel the evil in our hearts...and we go around calling those who are complying with the hadith and the Quran as evil.

You know those idols were not just mere objects of worship locked up in some temple. For those societies their idols were objects around which the living and dying of the people revolved.

They were to them what Democracy and Capitalism are to us.

122

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Then get elected, or convert an army general.

You cannot call it imposition of Shariah until you have the RIGHT to impose Sharia.

[quote]

It was peaceful but it wasn't within the norms of the society. It was far from it. Had he been working within the norms....the Qureish would never have attempted to kill him.

[/quote]

I misspoke again. I meant laws not norms. Had the Prophet broken the laws of the place the Qureish could have acted against him much sooner and with much more ease.

[quote]

He was challenging the very foundations of their system, it was just that he had not yet been commanded to pick up the sword. But once commanded, he made sure he used it well.

And he also commanded us that if we see any evil, we should stop it by our hands, and if we cant we should stop it by our tongues and if cant we should atleast feel bad in our hearts...and beyond that there is no eman.

[/quote]

But did he close down wineries and usurers in places he did not have a government?

Wherever he imposed Islamic law he had the right to do so. Meanwhile through preaching (stopping evil with his tongue) he continued to fight against what is wrong.

[quote]

Our problem is we dont even feel the evil in our hearts...and we go around calling those who are complying with the hadith and the Quran as evil.

[/quote]

Those who dont accept the writ of the government deserve to be treated like rebels. I have no issue with them forbidding people to have music within the confines of what is their domain.

[quote]

You know those idols were not just mere objects of worship locked up in some temple. For those societies their idols were objects around which the living and dying of the people revolved.

They were to them what Democracy and Capitalism are to us.
[/QUOTE]

Em, Im not sure what you mean by this, but I dont really see the correlation between idol worship and Democracy/Capitalism, or what that has to do with Sharia.

123

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

No one's gonna come down to you and show you...such and such thing is haraam, and such and such thing is halaal.

Its the consensus of all the Ulema, who are worthy of Knowledge, that most of the modern forms of music are haraam, and i dont want to go into the details of it right now.

The problem with you lot is, you dont believe in the infallibility of the ahadeeth upon which majority of the Sharee'ah is based along with the Quran.

As a result you take from Islam, whatever suits the present system...and reject whatever goes against the present system.

124

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

that is so true.

125

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Iconoclaust told us that.....well good to know that you don't support Musharraf and MQM.

126

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

I agree with you, on that one. They will not be able to enforce complete Shariah unless they come into Power.

But you need to appreciate the fact that you're lookin at people who are not hungry for power.

No, and that is because he was not ordered to do so by Allah. Why is it so difficult to understand something so simple. He movement was peaceful, one of the tongue....only cause Allah commanded him to do so.

And after the migration, it changed. The Shariah after migration is different to the Shariah before migrations. Lots of additions were made, as many new commandments were revealed after the migration.

Today, we cannot just ignore all the commandments and go back to the Meccan era...and start pretending how the Prophet acted. The Meccan age stopped with the Hijrah and we cannot go back to it now.

Agree with you on that one.

The Shariah isnt merely chopping of hands and stoning. Its a complete political economic and social system. Iam sure you'll understand what i mean by that.

127

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Then they shouldnt be hungry for en*force*ment of their rules.

[quote]

No, and that is because he was not ordered to do so by Allah. Why is it so difficult to understand something so simple. He movement was peaceful, one of the tongue....only cause Allah commanded him to do so.

And after the migration, it changed. The Shariah after migration is different to the Shariah before migrations. Lots of additions were made, as many new commandments were revealed after the migration.

Today, we cannot just ignore all the commandments and go back to the Meccan era...and start pretending how the Prophet acted. The Meccan age stopped with the Hijrah and we cannot go back to it now.

[/quote]

I cite his conduct during the Meccan age because of a similarity of conditions. You can also choose to cite an event during the Medina time, when he enforced a Sharia law in a land where his rule wasnt accepted.

[quote]

Agree with you on that one.

[/quote]

So if they should be treated like rebels by the state why would you defend them?

[quote]

The Shariah isnt merely chopping of hands and stoning. Its a complete political economic and social system. Iam sure you'll understand what i mean by that.
[/QUOTE]

Im afraid there is no practical way for that system to come into place in Pakistan.

The Random Thread
128

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

consensus? ummmm from what I know there is no consensus

should I then start saying what the problem with "YOU LOT" is ;)
as far as innfallibility of hadeeth, i dont think mulsim or bokhari believed in it either and that is why they tossed thousands.

we say oh chritianity is not the same because the words of jesus were changed by peter or paul or whoever, we are doing the same when hadeeth becomes more imporant than quran. anyways thatis a diff topic.

it appears that your heroes are doing that, taking over land illegally, taking over a library..illegally, kidnapping people..of course illegally.

not sure which version of islam says that is okay.

Now since many ulema have come out and said that what lal masjid lamers are doing is wrong..therefore by your logic it is okay for people to try and stop them by any means necesary? so nerve gas would be okay then?

129

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Who gave you the liberty to make assumptions on me? :naraz: :halo:

Well, I do not support any personalities, but I do support the policies of President Musharraf. Rather, I believe President is too soft when dealing with corrupts and retards (those who want to call themselves reliigous but in reality are following Khabeesiet). If I was in President Musharraf shoe, I would have been much harsher. I would have hanged many corrupts and would have blown up many retards :D. I know that if I had done that, I would have made many enemies, but than who cares, all have to die one day :hoonh:

As for Iconoclast making assumptions on me, it seems that he believes he has abnormal power of assumptions, but in reality, whatever he assumes, he assumes wearing tainted glasses. Actually, he needs some better and more honest glasses.

On a scale of one to ten : Rate your
130

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Just cause you dont know something, doesn't mean it dont exist. :)

You've already said it once before, you might as well say it again.

here we go again, for the umpteenth time..

Illegally? What's legal from one side is illegal from the other and vice versa. The fact is we're seeing a clash of idealogies.

Nothing new. Through out Islamic History we kept having evil scholars taking sides with evil rulers cause because of the favors that were granted upon them by their rulers.

GS Police Station !!!!
131

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Its not their rules, its Allah's Word.

[QUOTE]
I cite his conduct during the Meccan age because of a similarity of conditions. You can also choose to cite an event during the Medina time, when he enforced a Sharia law in a land where his rule wasnt accepted.
[/QUOTE]

Citing an event is not important in this case, since we have an authentic hadeeth concerning forbidding of evil, and I've already mentioned the hadeeth earlier

[QUOTE]
So if they should be treated like rebels by the state why would you defend them?
[/QUOTE]

The Prophet and his small group of companions were treated like rebels by the Qureish.

Tell me one thing....had you been in his time and in his era and in Makkah during the Makkan period, would you have supported him or not?

[QUOTE]
Im afraid there is no practical way for that system to come into place in Pakistan.
[/quote]

oh well..

132

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

exactly, so dont say there is consensus when clearly there is not.

pray tell how is taking over land that u dont own legal? how is kidmapping ppl legal, and how is taking over a library legal.

I agree its a clash of ideologies, the the ideology of lal masjid ppl is sickening.

true, one of the example of evil 'scholars' taking evil rulers side is when zia and this current moron's daddy were so tight, teh evil ruler got blown up in a plane, the evil 'schola' was gunned down in his facility, too bad they did not get te sons at the same time.

133

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

Are you losing grey cells over this issue or something?

the scholars, that you just talked about who are currently against the actions of lal masjid, go ask them about music and then ask them about "enjoining good forbidding evil", and then come and talk.

[QUOTE]
pray tell how is taking over land that u dont own legal? how is kidmapping ppl legal, and how is taking over a library legal.
[/QUOTE]

forgetting the causes and counting the effects, are we? :)

[QUOTE]
I agree its a clash of ideologies, the the ideology of lal masjid ppl is sickening.
[/QUOTE]

Whatever one doesn't agree with, seems sickening.

The difference between the two groups here is, while one's quoting Quran and Hadith for its actions....the other is subservient to its masters sitting abroad.

134

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

sure sure, the pakistani scholars who have opposed lal masjid actions are against music, yet even then they dont approve of the string arm crminal tactics by lal masjid lamers. do they? they dont approve of the suicide bombing threats by lal masjid ..do they?

so why dont you find me a consesnus of scholars agreeing to sucide bombings and the other threats, and then come and talk ..shabash

and are all muslim scholars only in Pakistan?

In the end, you want to support their criminal activities, fine go ahead but dont drag religion into it and malign it. Thank you

PS; yeah I guess I dont agree with threats fo suicide bombings and find it sickening, you are free to consider it as a hobby with major adrenaline rush

135

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

I dont know, you tell me.

I quoted hadeeth...authentic authentic hadeeth where the Prophet commanded us to stop evil by our hands. So if music is evil, we should be stopping it right, according to the hadith?

Now...quote a scholar from pakistan from the ones we talked about who doesnt agree with this hadith and says that you can let alone an evil in the society if u find one.

[QUOTE]
and are all muslim scholars only in Pakistan?
[/QUOTE]

LOL, not really. But there is a reason why i keep bringing them into the picture.;)

[QUOTE]
they dont approve of the suicide bombing threats by lal masjid ..do they?
[/QUOTE]

who issued a suicide bombing threat? and in response to what?

What you guys wanted the government to do to a Masjid and to people studying in there, not to forget sisters, was far more sick.

So much for your Islam...

136

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

what does stopping it by hand mean? to go beat people? burn their shops? what?

I mean by that token, if shcolars are saying lal masjid clowns are wrong. Then we must stop that wrong too.

no no no, lets not play this game.
the lal masjid clowns have been discredited by the very same ulema you are referring to as a proof that music is 'haram'

do they gree wit suicide bombings and kidnappings, from what I recall lal masjis regime has been pointed as being wrong by the scholars.

first of all its not "you people" diff people had different views. so lets be a little less emotional and more sensible here.

The people involved in criminal activities and people orderrting them to do it must be brough to justice. kidnapping cops, takong over a library and encroaching on land that did not belong to them are all crimes.

and per yourself, dont you have to stop a wrong act if you see it. now that scholars have said lal masjid ppl are wrong, I guess tat means we need to stop them,

and if you are saying that their tactics are acceptable, then I guess tactics like tear gas and mass chitrol to stop lal masjid ppl has to be acceptable too.

or do the rules of the game change then :)

137

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

oh random lal masjid idiots, and in respnse to..god knows..their pent up secual frustration, how am I to know why these deranged lunatics think the ay they do.

read up

*according to Dawn, “vowed to enforce Islamic laws in the federal capital and threatened to unleash a wave of suicide bombers if the government took any action to counter it.” The report in Dawn goes on to say:

“Our youth will commit suicide attacks, if the government impedes the enforcement of the Sharia and attacks Lal Masjid and its sister seminaries,” Maulana Abdul Aziz, the in-charge of the mosque said in his Friday sermon. The fresh suicide bombing threat is stated to be the strongest given so far by the hard-line clerics of the Lal Masjid, *

138

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

even of you shut down shops there is a vibrant underrground culture so its just a reaction to a symptom, that is that pakistanis dont have a real democracy, censored news, underfunding of social welfare issues like education, women issues etc

139

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

i remember when these reports came out, later reports came out to deny this had ever been said.

however, this remains a murky subject and i think pakistan is possibly getting guidance from the Imam-e-Kabba who is currently visiting

140

Re: Lal Masjid to start attacking CD shops! Welcome to the New Pakistan.

vroom

later reports came out to deny other stuff to..mostly because the lal masjid lalbges saw public mood and even religious parties go against them. so denials were issued.