Spock, its unfortunate that people died. The federal government was very patient dealing with the people in the mosque and their leaders, what really catalyzed the reaction was the kidnapping of Chinese workers which prompted reaction from the Chinese government (which happens to be a crucial ally). Inaction from the government would have strained ties. But yes, firing at people in the mosque was not the most sensible thing to do, better planning was most definitely required. Having said that, the folks in the mosque were clearly no innocents -- they were bent on imposing their interpretation of religion on others and were clearly disrupting civil life. It would have been very easy for the mosque leader to simply withdraw from his belligerent stance, but he chose not to. So in the end, they had to be dealt with. The consequences would have been disastrous had the government not stepped in.
you can allege incompetance, however I can cite a similar attempt in america to disarm a cult which ended in civilian deaths. You cant expect an army to go into holed up fighters with women and children shields and not get casualties.
How many times has americans done such a thing, inside of the US?
[quote]
The negotiations and standoff went on for 6 days. I remember because I was glued to the tv every single waking moment. Not to mention the many that did get out of the complex.
[/quote]
And who was incharge of negotiations? Chaudhry Shujaat (great negotiator fi you can understand a word he says), and Ijaz-ul-Haq.
[quote]
The government always includes in its calculus the impact of letting an armed masjid instigating a parallel government and talking about unleashing suicide bombing in the country. Whereas there was no such calculus for the venerable baradaraan, all they cared about was not getting arrested, such a selfish reason to let women and children die for you while you try to run off.
[/quote]
I believe they didnt, which explains why so many innocent people died. Basically, it was a show of firepower in the end, after the negotations failed.
Spock, its unfortunate that people died. The federal government was very patient dealing with the people in the mosque and their leaders, what really catalyzed the reaction was the kidnapping of Chinese workers which prompted reaction from the Chinese government (which happens to be a crucial ally). Inaction from the government would have strained ties. But yes, firing at people in the mosque was not the most sensible thing to do, better planning was most definitely required. Having said that, the folks in the mosque were clearly no innocents -- they were bent on imposing their interpretation of religion on others and were clearly disrupting civil life. They had to be dealt with.
Stalker, there were women in the mosque, maybe some of them out of their own free will, and some of them turned into hostages, you cant just say everyone who died inside was an enemy.
How many times has americans done such a thing, inside of the US?
The Waco Siege comes to mind.
[quote]
And who was incharge of negotiations? Chaudhry Shujaat (great negotiator fi you can understand a word he says), and Ijaz-ul-Haq.
[/quote]
I believe those were the preferred personalities of those holed up in there. Ijazul Haq and Chaudry Shujaat have both been tied to religious extremists of that ilk. Infact Ghazi in one of his last interviews talked about calling up Shujaat when things werent going great with the negotiator in chief (suggesting they had a relationship beyond the negotiations)
[quote]
I believe they didnt, which explains why so many innocent people died. Basically, it was a show of firepower in the end, after the negotations failed.
[/QUOTE]
I think those that died unfortunately made their own bed, by remaining holed up inspite of having the oppurtunity to leave. Part of this has to do with how young these girls were, and how people in cults can start mindlessly obeying the orders of cult leaders. Just look at the Waco incident to see how those women and children followed the leader to their deaths.
Pakistan is a third world country, with limited ways of storming the masjid without casualties. That said, they did send soldiers in there. If it had been merely a matter of firepower, they could just have surrounded the place with tanks and blasted the building till nothing survived, or just attacked it from the air.
I am not sure what they did that was more force than necessary, but certainly 6 days of surroudning the place and talking is evidence that bloodlust was not the aim.
aur log andar rahay, iss liye responsobility is of the people who stayed inside, hazaron log nikal aaye. jo log andar rahay woh apnay anjam kay khud zimahdaar thay.
And who is respionsible for those innocent people who came out out and were killed or were arrested and brutally treated? Who is responsible for all those poor men who on finding out about this operation came far from their goaoons to pick their daughters/children and were killed or arrested and brutally treated by the security forces?
I believe those were the preferred personalities of those holed up in there. Ijazul Haq and Chaudry Shujaat have both been tied to religious extremists of that ilk. Infact Ghazi in one of his last interviews talked about calling up Shujaat when things werent going great with the negotiator in chief (suggesting they had a relationship beyond the negotiations)
I think those that died unfortunately made their own bed, by remaining holed up inspite of having the oppurtunity to leave. Part of this has to do with how young these girls were, and how people in cults can start mindlessly obeying the orders of cult leaders. Just look at the Waco incident to see how those women and children followed the leader to their deaths.
Pakistan is a third world country, with limited ways of storming the masjid without casualties. That said, they did send soldiers in there. If it had been merely a matter of firepower, they could just have surrounded the place with tanks and blasted the building till nothing survived, or just attacked it from the air.
I am not sure what they did that was more force than necessary, but certainly 6 days of surroudning the place and talking is evidence that bloodlust was not the aim.
I dont buy that, remember the Afghani hostage crisis, when they had 50 or so children locked up in the Afghan embassy, all it took was 3-4 SSG ppl to go in and shoot the armed men, and there wasnt even a single hostage dead. This time around, there was just an all out attack from outside without any regards for hostages inside, simple as that.
I dont buy that, remember the Afghani hostage crisis, when they had 50 or so children locked up in the Afghan embassy, all it took was 3-4 SSG ppl to go in and shoot the armed men, and there wasnt even a single hostage dead. This time around, there was just an all out attack from outside without any regards for hostages inside, simple as that.
The fighting raged on for hours, after they stormed in. Clearly these people were quite well armed and holed up in terrain they had prepared for quite some time. SSG commandoes died in this instance, so it wasnt as clear cut an operation as some others.
All hostage scenarios dont end the same way. As far as Lal Masjid goes, it was tragic, but not as big a failure as some others have been, where all the hostages have died (as opposed to this one where 60-70% survived)
There is no incentive for people to kill for the sake of killing. Musharraf wasnt the one storming the building, unless you want to credit the SSG commandoes as being sadistical killers. Each commando is a very major asset for any country, like I said if the aim was just to kill everyone inside the easiest thing in the world was to surround the place and blow it to bits. They were holed up anyway.
Finally you are disingenuous when you call them all hostages. At best some of them were held against their will, most of them were willing human shields for militants who were publicly advocating and acting in ways as to challenge the state.
The fighting raged on for hours, after they stormed in. Clearly these people were quite well armed and holed up in terrain they had prepared for quite some time. SSG commandoes died in this instance, so it wasnt as clear cut an operation as some others.
All hostage scenarios dont end the same way.
There is no incentive for people to kill for the sake of killing. Musharraf wasnt the one storming the building, unless you want to credit the SSG commandoes as being sadistical killers.
Finally you are duplicitous when you call them hostages. At best some of them were held against their will, most of them were willing human shields for militants who were publicly advocating and acting in ways as to challenge the state.
I never said there werent any hostages inside, I said some of them were hostages, and some of them chose to stay indoors, as i should remind you taht these people abhorred the regime. Also, atleast you agree that all of them were 'offed' which is what I was trying to get you to say, thank you. Bottom line, women and children died, who chose to stay in or were held against their will by miscreants.
I never said there werent any hostages inside, I said some of them were hostages, and some of them chose to stay indoors, as i should remind you taht these people abhorred the regime. Also, atleast you agree that all of them were 'offed' which is what I was trying to get you to say, thank you. Bottom line, women and children died, who chose to stay in or were held against their will by miscreants.
I am not sure what you mean by 'offed', but I believe you when you say I said it.
Yes women and children died, and it is very tragic. I was one of those who was supporting the operation while arguing against the bloodlust tendencies of idiots here celebrating the whole thing.
Eventually the main blame lies with the halwa khore, maniacal, foolish molvies who traded the lives of those under their care for selfish concerns about their own freedoms, even if you claim that there were some operational issues in the way the raids were eventually carried out.
Yes, the 'movis' were wrong, but so was the top brass who ordered the all out attack, knowing there are civilians inside. btw, Ghazi didnt look like halwa khor, he was quiet sukka.
Khaas kam jahaan paak These people were breaking every law of the country and got what they deserved. They took arms against the state, took laws in their hand, and challenged the writ of the state, creating not only law and order problem but with their Ninja with Danda on roads, they made mockery of Pakistan and Islam all over the world. I think that Pakistan saved itself from anarchy once government acted on people whose mental ability was as good as goats and who were creating fitna in the name of Islam.
Anyhow, both sides got happy result from that operation. One side wanted their misguided ‘Shahadat’ and was willing to do even suicide and kill innocent Pakistanis to get that ‘Shahadat’, so they found it though without blowing themselves and harming innocent Pakistanis (army blew them to their destination). Other side wanted to get rid Pakistan from these mentally brainwashed people and stop them from their desire to harm peace in Pakistan, brainwash innocent childrens, impose their will over other Pakistanis, and kill innocents from their suicides, so they got what they wanted and brought rule of law in the country.
We should respect what these people hiding in Lal Masjid and Madrasa wanted and leave their soul to go through what they are going through in Heaven or Hell (depending on what you believe).
Saleem you are talking about ppl breaking laws? LOL how come you dont have problems with ppl breaking other laws, know what im talking about willis? haha
Lets start with law number 1, executing generals when they impose coups. Shall we?
sadly cult leaders all over the world have had innocent children and women killed. in the end the guy valued his own life more than the lives of the women and children entrusted to him. had he surrendered himself without regard for what happens to him, whether there is prosecution agianst him, whether he faces jail time etc (which is what the content of the 11th hour negotiations was) violent means wouldnt have been used.
Ravage stop being naive. Everyone knows what the situation was at the 11th hour.
It was your Govt. who was laying baseless and false accusations at those in the Masjid. Karaye ke bachey bula ke jhoot bulwa rahe they. Where were all those people after the operation, how come none of the women and the children accused anyone from the Masjid Management of kidnapping and other crimes PTV was narrating.
All Ghazi Shaheed wanted was that the media should be let in and the entire procedure of handing over the premises of the masjid should be as transparent as possible so that everyone could know the reality of the matter. What he didnt want was....the corrupt pharaonic regime planting in the masjid, whatever they wanted to prove, after the handover of the Masjid premise.
But of course this would have gone against the agenda of the government and their masters. Hence the mass killing. Shaheed Abdul Rasheed Ghazi was right on his stance, and we as MUSLIMS are proud that there still are a few amongst us who dont fear challenging the might of the Western and Pro-West regimes for the sake of their rights.
Killing of women is highly condemable, but this Lal masjid was a centre of spreading hatred against other sects since long - it used to be a stronghold of Sippa-e-Sahaba back in the early 90s'. People running the mosque as well as the governement are responsible for tragic incident of last year.
Even then its a selfish thing, to let women and children entrusted to you die to save whatever image you have left after the leader tried escaping in a burqa. Here though is the clip of him saying he wont surrender because the government isnt granting him safe passage, not sure if the government had him on kiraya:
Killing of women is highly condemable, but this Lal masjid was a centre of spreading hatred against other sects since long - it used to be a stronghold of Sippa-e-Sahaba back in the early 90s'. People running the mosque as well as the governement are responsible for tragic incident of last year.