Re: Karbala
Abdul rehman bin abubakr(ra) son of abubakr(ra) protested at the nomination of yazid by muawiyah
muawiyah also got rid of son of khalidbinwalid to secure the succession of yazid
one more clause of the truce was that the supporters of Ali(as) will be safe
muawiyah violated that when he killed the companions Amr ibn Hamiq(ra) and Hujr ibn Adi(ra)
Re: Karbala
[quote]
So Hazrat Zainul Abideen just stood there and watched while Hazrat Hussain and other members of his family were killed?
What about others that supported Hazrat Hussain?
They didn't do nothing other than retelling stories and doing Matams and more extreme version of such ritual continue today???
The loyal shias were mostly in prison at that time in kufa.
Imam Sajjad(as) was so ill in karbala that we would lapse in and out of consciousness
when the shias came out of jails after karbala they formed the tawwabun movement it was hard enough to organize since most of thier tribal leaders had been killed either in siffin or later in vindictive reprisals by Muawiyah.
under the leadership of suliman ibn sured(ra) companion of the prophet(pbuh) and Sa'd ibn Hudhaifa(ra) with 3000 of these fighters battled the ummayyads at the battle of Ayn Al Warda and after 3 days nearly all were martryed.This was before the uprising of Amir Mukhtar.
Numerous small and large uprisings by shias occured after that so you cannot say that they didnt do anything after that.
[quote]
One needs to look at events before karbala, the group that became saperated from rest of the ummah, the killing of Umar, Uthman (events that led to his death) and Ali... Karbala was the climax of what had happened to three caliphas.
[/quote]
"rest of ummah" is a misleading term the time period we are talking about ummah has 4 political and pseudo religious groups
1-Shias,
2- the people of hijaz
3-kharijites
4-syrians ummayyads
and the assasination of Umar(ra) had nothing to do with the killing of Uthman(ra)
although the chain of events set in motion after that eventually did lead to Karbala and Harra
Re: Karbala
yep I used to watch his programme too ..but this year there was someone else in same programme at ARY ..
I m a big fan of him …
ravage Can i ask y u don like him ?
Re: Karbala
[quote]
and the assasination of Umar(ra) had nothing to do with the killing of Uthman(ra)
although the chain of events set in motion after that eventually did lead to Karbala and Harra
[/quote]
Actually it set a precedent (especially after the brutal killing of Usman) that if you have connections or any other way of getting away with things, you can actually get away!
If what they say about Ali allowing the killers of uthman to nominate him as khalifa then sorry with all due respect, I don't like this action of Ali (rehm).
I even read it that it was a very sad day that uthman died and after that peace never returned to the caliphate (with battles and killings of opponents with yazid coming to power).
Re: Karbala
[quote]
If [quote]
what they say about Ali allowing the killers of uthman to nominate him as khalifa then sorry with all due respect, I don't like this action of Ali (rehm).
killers of Uthman(ra) came from Egypt and they left after his murder they didnt nominate Ali(as)
do you know who the killers were their names ? who was actively involved in the agitation against him?
Ali(as) was begged to take command by the Ansar and the Kufans that is why he first refused the office until the people agreed to follow his judgement and commands.
Yet some of them broke their allegiance.
Re: Karbala
Indeed one of the greatest tragedies of muslim ummah that they fought among themselves and due to that Imam Hussain and his followers killed in such way. When one hears about it, it is not possible that your heart will not get filled with sorrow. I do not beleive in Mattam and other ritiuals but I think every muslim at least should learn about this tragic incident. And also not to forget our other Calighs who were also killed.... Hazrat Umar Farooq was also attacked and passed away on 1st Muharram and then Hazrat Usman R.A.
Re: Karbala
Muharrem enables Muslims to be patient and relive the tragedy which hazret Fatima rh's family underwent. there are countless lessons to learn from her strength by recalling karbala.
best,
Dushwari
Re: Karbala
we remeber the Muharram and great sacrifice of Hussain(ra)...but we never ever mourn...shout....anddisobey the will of Allah almighty...for it is strictly forbidden by Prophet(pbuh) ..and in quran...it is ..do sabr...a lot of times....
secondly..the love of Hussain(ra) is because he was the grandson of Prophet(pbuh)...so this grandson hierarchy makes this relation strong..and ignoiring the Prophet(pbuh) clear cut commands in "love" of Hussain (ra)..is nothing but foolishness....
Re: Karbala
I saw some misunderstandings on your part regarding the issue, thus I thought to intervene.
If you are under impression that mourning or lamenting is something agasint Sabar or it is to go against the will of Allah [swt] then this notion is totally baseless since in Quran we read that Prophet Yaqub [as] used to lament, he mourned to the extent that he lost one of his precious body organs i.e. eyesight, his sheer lamentation had almost brought him towards death, still the patience (sabar) is mentioned in Surah Yusuf . If this incident is not suffice then we have various other incidents in history wherein we see that some prominent and revered personalities of Islam exhibit their sheer sorrow and grief over the death/martyrdom of their loved ones. Ibn Katheer writes in his authority work al Bidayah wa al Nihaya, Volume 4, page 673, published by Nafees Academy Karachi:
Ibn Ishaq narrates that on the day when Hadhrat Jafar ibn Abi Talib was martyred in Ghazwa-e-Moutah; Holy Prophet (s) called upon Hadhrat Abdullah bin Jafar and made him sit on his lap and started kissing his forehead and eyes, while tears were flowing from his own Holy eyes.
The Sahaba inquired: “O Prophet of Allah! Is it so that some grieving news has come about Jafar that has made your tears flow?”
The Holy Prophet (s) replied: “Yes, Today Jafar has been martyred there, but the troubles and the plight that he went through before being martyred is very grieving.”
Similarly, the cut throat tragedies befallen over the pre faimly of Prophet [s] in karbala were so grave that the devoted ones lament and mourn for the same!
The hierarchy is not one way rather its a two way hierarchy. According to the words of Prophet [s], **Imam Hussain [as] is from Him [s] and He [s] is from Imam Hussain [as]. **So one has to remember the second aspect of the love that has been made incumbent on us for Ahlulbayt [as]. But in any case, I dont know how can people object on others for lamenting and mourning the tragedies of the martyrs of Karbala while the people who are advancing objections do not even shed a tear for the same tragedy while we have Prophetic traditions wherein He [s] himself wept when he heard the prediction of the murder of Imam Hussain [as], I mean this is not justice, if you are not doing anything that doesnt mean you should start raising fingers to the bereaved ones who are commemorating in their own way! (This is general comment from my side not for a particular individual).
Re: Karbala
^ Salam,
The Prophet pbuh never sliced himself with knives over it, did he?
Re: Karbala
^Im not sure about this. But I believe the knives and chains came way after and were not utilized in the maatam practise in early days of Shiasm. Is that true?! Although the "normal" maatam with hands only was a practise ever since.
Re: Karbala
happy to see you after a long long time…friend…
have not we discussed this issue and many others …for infinity times…
i will give hadees of Prphet(pbuh) about strict opposition of matam..and similarly…in reply…you will copy paste hadees ..about mourning of aisha(ra) on prophet(pbuh) death…
come on yaar…i dont want to keep on revolving in the same circle…
just close this topic now…
the thing which is forbidden will remain so…
weeping is alowed…bain…shouts..tearing..matam…are forbidden…
when the women of Jaffar(ra) house …started shouting…2 times..Prophet(pbuh0 said to them …keep quiet..when they not listened to Prophet(pbuh)…prophet(pbuh) shouted with anger…fill thier mouths with mud !!!
Re: Karbala
happy to see you after a long long time....friend....:) have not we discussed this issue and many others ...for infinity times...:)
i will give hadees of Prphet(pbuh) about strict opposition of matam..and similarly...in reply...you will copy paste hadees ..about mourning of aisha(ra) on prophet(pbuh) death......:)
come on yaar...i dont want to keep on revolving in the same circle.... just close this topic now....
the thing which is forbidden will remain so.....:)
weeping is alowed...bain....shouts..tearing..matam...are forbidden....
when the women of Jaffar(ra) house ...started shouting...2 times..Prophet(pbuh0 said to them ...keep quiet..when they not listened to Prophet(pbuh)...prophet(pbuh) shouted with anger......fill thier mouths with mud !!!!!!!!!!!!
First of all thanx for a welcome from your side. Secondly, it is indeed a surprise to me that you are aware of the matam of Ayesha etc and yet you are happily declaring a thing as Haram. Anyhow, the point is that there are various things which Shias deem Halal but is considered Haram in AhleSunnah and vice versa but it is my personal wish that Ahle Sunnah shall at least not bring any severe objection or comment for the topic of matam by Shias since this is related to emotions and is done under sheer grief, not something pertaining to normal circumstances like the belief against Tarwaeeh etc, so no matter it is considered forbidden by Sunnies, they shall try to remain silent 'at least' on this topic, if they do so, then I think they are in actually respecting the pain of Shias. If not, then we all shall always be ready to hear/read acerbic debates from either sides, making the ambience more acrimonious.
I dont know I am able to make my point clear or not, but I tried!
Re: Karbala
At least he [s] wept for his grandson, do you act on this sunnah of your beloved prophet [s]? If not then do you think you reserve right to comment on the practice of someone who is commemorating the tragedy in his particular way?
Re: Karbala
^ salam,
yeah he wept on many occasions, he wept alot. Did he make it obligatory on us to weep for all the occasions he did?
Thats what I was getting at, sorry.
Re: Karbala
^The Prophet (SAW) might not have made it obligatory, but anyone would weep after listening to the events that took place in Karbala and that's why Shias weep and do matam.
And as far as the topic of matam, every group of people have their own way of doing it, whether it is a normal beating of the chest with their hands, or the blades and chains...it's not that difficult to understand.
Re: Karbala
Salam sis,
I dont mean to offend, but perhaps get a clarification on your viewpoints.
Mutilation isn't allowed in Islam, but using knives in essence violates that.
I cry tons of times when I hear stories of our sahabas r.a , rasool allah saw, and our Ambiya A.S.
But realistically, isn't it different than what shia brothers and sisters designate the specific month and time and period to perform it?
I can cry anytime, to feel sad about a certain past event is permissible, its human.
But to crystalize it in an organized fashion, on a specific date and scale, and then make it part of your faith, and how you function as a muslim or as a human being (this could be applied generally right) is much different, no?
This is my view on it, Hope I got it across well.
Wsalam
Re: Karbala
Salam sis,
I dont mean to offend, but perhaps get a clarification on your viewpoints.
Mutilation isn't allowed in Islam, but using knives in essence violates that.
I cry tons of times when I hear stories of our sahabas r.a , rasool allah saw, and our Ambiya A.S.
But realistically, isn't it different than what shia brothers and sisters designate the specific month and time and period to perform it?
I can cry anytime, to feel sad about a certain past event is permissible, its human.
But to crystalize it in an organized fashion, on a specific date and scale, and then make it part of your faith, and how you function as a muslim or as a human being (this could be applied generally right) is much different, no?
This is my view on it, Hope I got it across well.
Wsalam
Good points.
In certain communities horses and camels are brought in to *mimic *the events of karbala.
How come Prophet never designated days for sahabas who were killed savagely? The murder of Hazrat Humza, equally horrific as events of karbala, yet Prophet did not designate a day to mimic or mourn his death every year.
Re: Karbala
^ salam, yeah he wept on many occasions, he wept alot. Did he make it obligatory on us to weep for all the occasions he did?
Thats what I was getting at, sorry.
And who told you that it is "obligatory" ? As I stated earlier, weeping for the tragedy befallen on Imam Hussain [as] is Sunnah, do you people ever act on this Sunnah? If not then do you think you are morally right to mock/object/comment on those who act on this?
Re: Karbala
The murder of Hazrat Hamza [ra] and others during the era of Prophet [s] was NEVER equally horrific as the events of Karbala. Since the base you made was wrong thus the rest of the matter.