jus a cruel joke?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I want to pose a question. To discuss this we must work off of the assumption that the Christian God does exist, and created us as stated in the Bible.

It has been said that man was imparted free will by God. It has also been said that God is the Supreme Being in the universe. From reading the Bible, one feels that God can do anything, and knows everything (he is both omnipotent, and omniscient.)

Now if God does truly know everything (as he must having imparted the book of revelations as fact) then when he created everything he knew that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree of knowledge. Yet, still he punished them, after creating them knowing what they would do.

That would also say that all the people who have lived without becoming Christians, who are punished, were created with God having full knowledge of their fate. If their fate is predetermined (by God knowing what it will be) can a person truly have free will, and is Gods creation truly an ethical one having the knowledge of those who will be punished before they are born?

2

if a teacher knows his student isnt doing well in class, then is it a cruel joke to fail him in the exam????
or wud it be more cruel to just throw him out of the class????

and its not just the christian god....
all religions taht believe in god and day of judgement have the same belief....

3

Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. 2:6

Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. 2:7

And after in many other verses Allah has decided to torture these people in hell, whose heart and hearing he himself has sealed, so that they do not listen or understand…. I wonder, what is their fault?

4

hmm i asked this question once to my islamic teacher and he said that's allah has given ppl the choice to choose right from wrong and it's up to the ppl to choose their way and that said Allah used his knowledge to determine what a particular person will do with his life,

Allah truly knows everything coz he has the knowledge of everything which we humans don't, Allah used his knowledge to determine what path a person will follow

and like armughal said if a person is not doing good he still has the chance to improve

5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
...
And after in many other verses Allah has decided to torture these people in hell, whose heart and hearing he himself has sealed, so that they do not listen or understand…. I wonder, what is their fault?
[/QUOTE]

Because they didn't listen to His messengers, they killed His messengers, they disobeyed His commands etc. There hearts/minds/brains were not sealed from birth but there own actions led to.

6

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. 2:6

Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. 2:7

And after in many other verses Allah has decided to torture these people in hell, whose heart and hearing he himself has sealed, so that they do not listen or understand…. I wonder, what is their fault?
[/QUOTE]

This verse refers to the tyrants, sinners, arrogant people who persist in polytheism and evil and reject the Ayaat of their Lord (knowing that it is the truth) because it goes against their own selfish whims and desires therefore the path of understanding the truth is closed for them.

They were not deaf, dumb and blind to the truth by default.

Comprehension and realisation of the truth belongs to those who are not arrogant, the open minded, those who when they here the truth and realise it they accept it whole-heartedly.

Just like a rusted mirror is unusable, sins make the ‘heart’ rusted and thus it is unable to comprehend the realities.

"O mankind! There hath come to you a direction from your Lord and a healing for the (diseases) in your hearts,- and for those who believe, a guidance and a Mercy." (10:57)

"And say: "The truth is from your Lord." Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve…"(18:29)

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Re: jus a cruel joke?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aneeqa: *
I want to pose a question. To discuss this we must work off of the assumption that the Christian God does exist, and created us as stated in the Bible.

[/QUOTE]

Why do you call it an assumption?

Secondly, replace Christian with moslem and God with Allah, the question still stands, doesn't it?

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Re: jus a cruel joke?

A human being is neither totally free, nor entirely bound. This is the very famous issue of Qadr-o-Jabr and I believe it has been raised here before.

A person asked Hazrat Ali :razi: abou this. Hazrat Ali :razi: asked him to raise one of his legs in the air. He did so. Then he asked him to raise the other one also and, obviously, he couldn’t. Then Hazrat Ali :razi: commented, this is the case with a human being also. He is as much free in his life to raise one leg, but he is not that free to raise both at the same time. MaShaAllah, what a parable of wisdom from the sahabi who was regarded as Bab-Ul-Ilm by Aanhazoor :saw: .

There is also a very interesting definition of this, which is quote by some buzurg: ** A man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills**.

What Hazrat Adam :as: did was out of his own free will. So is the case with an act performed by a human being, for which he will be held accountable. However, it is Allah’s infinite diversity of knowledge that He knows each and every bit of it.

As Allah Iqbal (Rehmatullah Aleih) mentioned:

Amal sei zindagi bantee hei, jannat bhee jahannam bhee
Yei khaakee apnee fitrat mei naa nooree hei naa naaree hei

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Re: Re: jus a cruel joke?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ramyssysIX: *
A man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills
[/QUOTE]

This is incorrect. It's more difficult for some than others. With the right attitude and dharma a person seeking truth will will what he/she wills.

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. 2:6

Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. 2:7

And after in many other verses Allah has decided to torture these people in hell, whose heart and hearing he himself has sealed, so that they do not listen or understand…. I wonder, what is their fault?
[/QUOTE]
Dear Yahudi, Thanx for quoting our Surahs. Well, you just answered your own question in that post of yours. Not to direspect your religious beliefs by any means, but for us you are considered among those people who will reject Allah s.w.t Guidance. You will never admitt that islam is the true religion and believe in Allah s.w.t(thus "Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings"), and by all means its not your fault. But who knows better ? Only Allah s.w.t the most gracious and merciful .
-Salman

11

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Dhulfiqar: *
This verse refers to the tyrants, sinners, arrogant people who persist in polytheism and evil and reject the *Ayaat of their Lord (knowing that it is the truth) because it goes against their own selfish whims and desires therefore the path of understanding the truth is closed for them.

[/QUOTE]
Outside of polytheism, those traits could be applied to someone of any religion. I think history shows that most evil, arrogant, sinning tyrants are not polytheists. Being the benevolent God that He is, I refuse to believe He sends billions of people to hell based on belief in any (1) one set of scripture.

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dhulfiqar: *

This verse refers to the tyrants, sinners, arrogant people who persist in polytheism and evil and reject the Ayaat of their Lord (knowing that it is the truth) because it goes against their own selfish whims and desires therefore the path of understanding the truth is closed for them.

[/QUOTE]

Obviously sinners and cruel tyrants should be punished but that has nothing to do with them being monotheist or polytheist. Hinduism can show you thousands of kings and billions of people who believe in multiple ways to reach salvation, generally considered polytheist. The Trinity of Brhma Vishnu Shiva is but one example.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by TomSawyer: *
Hinduism can show you thousands of kings and billions of people who believe in multiple ways to reach salvation, generally considered polytheist. The Trinity of Brhma Vishnu Shiva is but one example.
[/QUOTE]

So you feel it necessary to advertise your religion even if its completely irrelevant to what we're talking about right now?

Yahudi, you are not the first person to quote verses out of context, and really, the issues you do raise are quite outdated. It usually takes us some time to come up with a standard answer, seeing that we're split into so many sects, but for the verses you quote, you'll find we have pretty much gone past the point of intelligent debate about it. Its been done to death.

about the topic itself

consider a world where there is justice, where right begets right, wrong begets wrong. if not in this world, in the next. Consider that this is all that there is to it. whats unfair about it?

consider now that Allah has knowledge about everything, including your fate. the world is still the same. your actions are still motivated by your thoughts, beliefs, reasons. good is still good, bad still bad. why is the world anymore unfair?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
So you feel it necessary to advertise your religion even if its completely irrelevant to what we're talking about right now?

[/quote]

I don't give a ratsass whether any of you follow any religion or not. Dhufi made a sweeping statement about polytheists and I pointed out the error of his ways.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
consider a world where there is justice, where right begets right, wrong begets wrong. if not in this world, in the next. Consider that this is all that there is to it. whats unfair about it?
[/quote]

You just described the concept of karma.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
consider now that Allah has knowledge about everything, including your fate. the world is still the same. your actions are still motivated by your thoughts, beliefs, reasons. good is still good, bad still bad. why is the world anymore unfair?
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Now combine the good begets good bad begets bad, allah's knowledge and the fact that someone like alla is not really bound by constraints for time & mortality. That'd mean the begetting doesn't have to be within any one mortal's time. Which means reincarnation.

IOW, when you really think about it sincerely, you end up proving karma and reincarnation.

15

:mudhosh: Word “prove” and reincarnation donot belong in one sentence.
As to the question of forum , thing is Allah knows because of His knowledge that what choices we will make doesnot mean He is dictating our choices. They are still ours to make.
Yahudi sigh context,context,context,context.
And donot go out of your way to show your knowledge of Quran (which is very bais)