Judging others

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Judging others

I trust you realise that the importance of not being a takfiri was first mentioned by me, so then how can you say that what I am saying directly to you is in opposition to what you think I have implied in the past?

Saying salams to people, praying behind them, and inviting them to you own activities is what I consider inclusive behaviour as far as us lay folk are concerned. Would you agree?

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Re: Judging others

Takfir is the act of saying another is a kaafir.

Takfiri is a slur like b*****ng of a group of people who make it their habit to define the parameters of Islam so strictly that it makes all others even if they subtly differ from them as deemed to be kaafirs.

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Re: Judging others

:hehe:

So the one who calls particular actions such as grave worshipping , magic etc shirk doesn’t fall in the category of takfiri ? Or does he ?

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Re: Judging others

Grave worshipping is shirk, black magic is evil, all the schools of thoughts are agreed on this.
Now where is takfir?
if someone visits a grave, a takfiri will declare that vistor a kafir without knowing visitor’s intention or actual belief.

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Re: Judging others

How about the act of calling an act shirk ?
How would one teach the right and wrong(acc to wht one follows) to others(their kids, friends etc) without telling so n so act is wrong ?

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Re: Judging others

Ok. Got it.
Thanks :)

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Re: Judging others

I dont think its so simple to declare people kafirs, just on the premise that they are different. B*****ng each other Kafirs on subtle differences is not helping Islam or Muslims. The buck does not stop here, first some people are declared kafirs and then they are attacked. As a result Islam has been made a laughing stock of the world. Who is the real winner in this scenario?

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Re: Judging others

you are welcome.
I just give you a basic idea. there are many other things that are considered when declaring someone a takfiri. So a shcolar can give complete details on it.

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Re: Judging others

That was the crux of my OP, one should contact the experts for seeking highly technical advice. :D

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Re: Judging others

You see "an act" is not shirk ... It never was nor is ... Behind every "act" is an "intent" and against every "observation" is perception ... That whether the perception is a correct one or an incorrect one is also important.

There are physical acts that are wrong despite the intention ... For example a male and female to go skinny dipping ... with no intention to do anything other than swim in the same pool ... That is wrong, but it is not shirk ...

Shirk ... Is an act that mandates the form and intent for it to be shirk ... To direct power to something other than Allah (SWT) when that power is only deserving of Allah (SWT) is shirk ... That directing of power as you can see both has form and intent.

I suggest you read and study aqeedah to be confident about how to remain within the boundaries ... It is not important to deem something as shirk, but it is important to avoid that act if it seems to be shirk-like to you, until you have sought clarification for it.

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Re: Judging others

and there are takfiris who call others takfiris.

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Re: Judging others

You are wrong.

Takfeeries do not call any Muslim takfeeri, they call them Kafir. For takfeeris, whoever has different beliefs then theirs or beliefs they do not agree, they consider them Kafir and also call them Kafir.

Calling someone Takfeeri is not takfeer. If a Muslim calls another Muslim Takfeeri then they would be either lying (and thus would be committing big sin) or telling the truth. Actually, if one calls someone takfeeri who do takfeer then it is OK … rather, one can also call such person Kafir who do takfeer.

One should know that a person becomes Muslim by declaring Shahadah or by birth … and after that, whoever claims that he is Muslim has right to be called Muslim, especially by those who claim that they are Muslim.

If a person claims that he is ‘not Muslim’ then a Muslim can call that person Kafir without becoming takfeeri, but if a Muslim calls another Muslim ‘kafir’ then that is called ‘takfeer’ and caller becomes ‘takfeeri’.

Takfeeri is ‘practically’ a Kafir (because of his takfeer … and takfeer is his confession that he is kafir) but since calling someone kafir is big thing for Muslims (because if wrongly called can make oneself kafir), Muslim instead of calling such person’ kafir’ they either keep quite or call such person ‘takfeeri’ (it is precautionary word short of calling someone Kafir), though a takfeeri can be called Kafir.

Reason why calling someone Takfeeri is different than calling someone Kafir: Suppose Mr A in private conversation was told by Mr B that he is not Muslim and is just pretending to be Muslim. Now Mr A can call Mr B Kafir but his call could make him takfeeri in front of other Muslims even though he do not become Kafir as he is doing takfeer on basis of private information. So, calling someone Takfeeri does not necessarily mean that the person is kafir, as that person maybe doing takfeer on basis of private information (confession of the person he calls Kafir).

But takfeeri becomes Kafir if he has done takfeer on basis of his own beliefs, observation or whatever (other than confession).

So, to call someone takfeeri does not mean that one is calling someone Kafir, it only means that one is calling someone takfeeri because that person has done takfeer (or group as Takfeeries because people in that group do takfeer). That is all. Only thing is that if takfeeri is calling someone kafir because of his own beliefs or observation, then only he would be a kafir.

By considering and treating a takfeeri same as kafir, Allah protects Muslim from the hands of Muslims (individuals or group who fear Allah and punishment of Allah after death) who wants to prosecute Muslims after calling or declaring them Kafir (for whatever reason)… and also protects Muslims' right to be called Muslim ... as those who call or declare a Muslim ‘Kafir’ becomes Kafir themselves and would burn in hell forever (as punishment from Allah for their transgression, regardless of their imaan and amaal).

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Re: Judging others

Peace Sa1eem

I don't think brother Bao Bihari's comment has effectively been refuted in your long discourse.

I think he is saying there are some people who (believe others are kafir, but don't openly say it) while all they do say is that those others are takfiris ... So he is saying there are people who privately do takfir at those who openly do takfir.

You seem to be saying much the same thing ... That to call someone a takfiri is not calling them a kafir, but since you believe that a takfiri puts himself outside Islam then effectively you are saying takfiris are a type of kafir.

I don't believe a takfiri is outside Islam ... I think that is abuse of the Hadith ... I think the Hadith is a cautionary Hadith rather than one that carries judgment ... A takfiri cannot be tried in court as an apostate. If I call a takfiri a kafir then I become one of them too. In order to remain a ghair takfiri I have to assume the position of silence and internally believe those doing takfir to be my brother as well.

a takfiri simply is a person who is not hesitant in deeming others a kafir when others openly claim to be Muslim and follow the aqeedah ... But that simply makes them liars not kafirs ... The Hadith should be looked at in this context ... That is to lie is kufr ... But it does not make a believer a disbeliever, (murtad). We also need to be aware that sometimes the takfiri is correct in his claim ... Which is another reason why that Hadith cannot take the meaning you have given it.

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Re: Judging others

^^^ Brother, in Islam one becomes Muslim by saying that one is Muslim … and if one says that one is not Muslim, then that person becomes Kafir. So, in Islam saying or confessing is the most important part of determining a person's faith regardless of what a person believes inside his heart.

So, if a person believes that someone (a Muslim) is Kafir but do not say it or act on his belief, but treat other person as Muslim just because of his confession, then that is not takfeer.

As for a person who is guilty of takfeer on basis of his own judgment or beliefs, does not only become takfeeri, but Kafir (murtad). There is no abuse of Hadith, as there are many obvious reasons to consider such person as Kafir (some I mentioned in earlier post). Takfeer is not just crime against abused but it is big crime against Allah and denial of Allah’s right and privilege.

You are right that a takfeeri cannot be tried in court as apostate. Anyhow, if state or the person against whom he has done takfeer takes him to court then he can be tried in court, and that is the reason these hell-dwellers normally do takfeer when they are in group or think they are safe.

Just imagine, if anyone calls you or me ‘kafir’ in front of us, what would be our reaction (for me, I would kick his teeth out and would beat hell out of him and after that I would treat him like a Kafir-dog forever … as being called Kafir by takfeeri kafir would be big abuse of my right for me).

Being Muslim is just like being member of a club whose owner is Allah. It is Allah who has made members to respect membership of other members. Once member, only Allah can cancel the membership of this club. Those who do not respect membership of other members automatically lose their own membership.

For instance, if any member (Muslim) calls other member (Muslim) a non-member (Kafir), then that caller is not only abusing membership of a member, but also challenging the right of owner (Allah). Hence, according to hadith, for showing such attitude towards other member and Allah, he (Takfeeri) becomes non-member (kafir).

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Re: Judging others

.
How one can say k kon kafir hai ya kon ni ?
I mean how we can judge someone ?
By their acts ? Ho sakta hai jis pe me amal kr raa hun wohi wrong ho :konfused:

Aajkal tou sb firqey Madaris aik doosrey ko kafir krte ja rey hain
Shyd competition chal raa hai !

I knw some ppl , last year wo Hajj pe gye , wapisi pe brey fakhr se they told me k wo Makkah mein more than a month rahey but aik namaz b wahan k Imam k pichey bajamaat ni adaa ki ! :hayaa:

I was like :eek:
Then he said hamare moulana sb ka fatwa hai , in k piche namaz jayz ni !

Ab wht I knw from Ahadeeth , Makkah mein aik bajamaat namaz ka ajr aik lac namaz k ajr k braber hai , so wo apne tor per zra takheer se puri namazein ada kr k aye but kia bajamaat na parhne ki wajah se aik lac ka ajr mila hoga ? :konfused:

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Re: Judging others

Brother Sa1eem ... If takfir is a crime against Allah (SWT) then how can you say that a takfiri is a kafir? By saying so you become a takfiri too ... And going by your definition of takfiri is that they are kafir ... one comfortably places themselves into that melting pot of condemnation.

The only acceptable position here is to acknowledge that doing takfir increases the risk of one being deemed to be such and such, but it does not equate to being a kafir. This way round we can call people takfiri without becoming takfiri ourselves.

Bao Bihari has a valid point ...

BTW if someone calls me kafir then I will raise my finger recite Shahadah and walk away ... I will not kick their teeth in. I will leave vengeance to be catered for by my Lord in Whom I have trust on my behalf.

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Re: Judging others

^^^ Brother … I understand that it is safe not to call a takfeeri ‘Kafir’ but that is to be safe from doing takfeer on those who may have been doing takfeer on personal information of confession (and I already mentioned that in my post #32](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/628030-judging-others-2.html#post9789440)). Anyhow, those who do takfeer on basis of their beliefs and understanding of Islam, are not just takfeeri but Kafir.

I could not understand that: ‘When a person has already left Islam by doing takfeer (has become Kafir), than how calling such person ‘takfeeri or even kafir’ is takfeer or even Sin?

There is hadith from Ibn Umar that the Holy Prophet (SAW) said that: If a Muslim calls another person kafir, then it is fine if called is a kafir; else, the caller himself is kafir.

Shows that if a Muslim calls someone Kafir than it is fine if that someone is Kafir (he is not one who claims that he is Muslim, is not reciter of Kalma-e-Shahadah … or … is not people of Qibla) … else … the caller himself is Kafir (if caller called someone who claims to be Muslim, then caller himself is Kafir).

Actually doing Takfir is worse sin then becoming apostate. Becoming apostate is sin against Allah and it is possible that Allah, the most forgiving, may forgive such person if Allah wants to … but doing takfir is sin against Allah, against Islam (as it divides and weakens Islam), against Ummah (it is an attack on Muslims), as well as against individual (one who became victim of takfeer), so forgiveness needed on judgment day would be not only from Allah but from Ummah as well as from human who became victim of takfeer.

Allah command in Quran is that … even if in war, an unknown person amongst Kuffar says ‘Salaam’ then do not call that person unbeliever (Kafir) … (reason is that … the person might be Muslim in heart but is amongst Kuffar … so even saying Salaam by anyone forbid Muslims to call him non-Muslim) now takfeeri doing takfeer on people they know call themselves Muslim then how big the sin could be is unimaginable … probably it would have been better for these Takfeeris that they had left Islam rather than declaring Muslims as non-Muslim … as then they would have had lower punishment on judgment day.

4:94 … O you who have believed, when you go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah , investigate; and do not say to one who gives you [a greeting of] peace “You are not a believer,” aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You [yourselves] were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor upon you, so investigate. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

**I am really surprised how sanctity of being Muslim is so unimportant and meaningless for some on this forum (and in real life) that if anyone calls them (a Muslim)‘Kafir’ still people have so much love and sympathy for callers (takfeeries) that they do not even want to consider such jahannumi as ‘Takfeeri or Kafir’, making excuses or showing concern for them, though there are clear hadith about this matter, logic dictates the same, and also Allah forbids that.

**We should know and understand that if takfeer was acceptable [if Allah has not forbidden it and Prophet (SAW) according to hadith has not declared them Takfeeris a Kafir belonging to hell], then after Prophet (SAW), every Muslim converted or born, would have been called kafir by one group of Muslims or another. Even if there was no reason then people would have created reasons to call their opponents ‘Kafir’ and making war against their opponents as war in the name of Islam … what present day Kharjees are doing through out Muslim world.
**

**

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Re: Judging others

and some are takfiri because mufti hazrat uncle SAM says so.

[QUOTE]
As for a person who is guilty of takfeer on basis of his own judgment or beliefs, does not only become takfeeri, but Kafir (murtad). There is no abuse of Hadith, as there are many obvious reasons to consider such person as Kafir (some I mentioned in earlier post). Takfeer is not just crime against abused but it is big crime against Allah and denial of Allah’s right and privilege
[/QUOTE]

In the other thread where we were discussing this takfiri issue, you guys did not come up with eve a proper definition of who the takfiri is?

i am not arguing with you any more on this unless necessary as i think that i have made my point that we need to have proper knowledge before we affix this big tag on others which appears to be lacking here.

Jazakalalh kahir brother psyah for explaining n my behalf.

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Re: Judging others

Brother, you are absolutely right. Today … knowledge of Islam has shrunk so much that people do not know what takfeer is, and consequence of takfeer, then:

Some are doing takfeer because Mufti Uncle Sam says so.
Some are doing takfeer because Mullah Umar Taliban says so.
Some are doing takfeer because Mufti Wahab Najdi says so.
Some are doing takfeer because Mufti Saud Wahabi says so.
Some are doing takfeer because Mufti XYZ Deobandi says so.
Some are doing takfeer because Mufti XYZ Berelvi says so.
Some are doing takfeer because Mufti Fazlullah TTP says so.
Some are doing takfeer because Mufti ABC Fitna says so.
So on ...

And since many oppose each other (in aqeedah or due to politics), and many love a particular Mufti (especially Mufti of their aqeedah or one who impressed them), war is going on that ‘our Takfeeri’ is innocent and your ‘Takfeeri’ is guilty.

When in Islam, no mufti has any legs to stand and only criteria of being Takferi is not what a particular Mufti says so … but all depends on if a person as individual or group do takfeer or not, and that is it, call other Muslims Kafir and be called takfeeri and if not then be fine. It is as simple as that. This means.

No takfeer on personal beliefs or understanding of Islam nor any takfeer on Mufti’s fatwa (who once done takfeer themselves become takferi and dosakhi … and should be shun by Muslims). No Mufti would save a soul on judgment day from fire, neither they would be able to save themselves from fire if they are wrongdoers. Thus, give sanctity to being Muslim as what Allah and his Rasul (SAW) has done ... and follow the only creteria we see in hadith, and that creteria is and should be that:

If a Muslim as individual or a group calls other Muslim (anyone who confesses or claim that he is Muslim) ‘kafir’ then that individual or group are Takfeeris regardless of what aqeedah they follow, and what any Mufti says so about such takfeer … be that Mufti Alif or Mufti Bay.

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Re: Judging others

^ and it should be noted that to have done takfir on a supported basis does not remove the person from Islam. Also, if the takfeer is done on a case basis that does not make that person a takfiri (i.e. a person who makes all groups kafir other than his own out of habit) and lastly I still disagree that you can imply even a takfiri is kafir ... Or else you will be yourself a takfiri ...

The act of kufr does not make a person a kafir ... Doing takfir is an act of kufr and not a direct or conscious act of denouncing Islam.

The practical effect of takfiris and those who privately deem others to be kafir is that they will behave exclusively and this mentality is not limited to certain groups it exists everywhere. Exclusiveness is the makings of a cult ... Cults have a problem in the worldly sense ... But even then I cannot say that members of those cults are themselves kafir ...

For me it seems that Sa1eem your position is no better than the Takfiris you denounce ... And if I call you a Takfiri it has a much lower impact than your calling me a Takfiri ... Your calling me a Takfiri will mean that you deem me to be kafir ...however, my calling you Takfiri is not anywhere near that.

so who out of us is being separatist and who is not?