Judges restoration, YES/NO? Clarification (Threads Merged)

[ehtasab]

Re: Judges restoration, YES/NO? Clarification (Threads Merged)

@Sa1eem

I do not know why some Pakistanis live in illusions? What I can see, there are no ways corrupt judges along with their corrupt Sardar Iftikhar can get restored unless President decides, Chief Justice Dogar agrees, or PML helps. Reason is obvious, that is constitution under normal circumstances does not allow Prime Minister or anyone in government to sack current Chief Justice and appoint someone as Chief Justice or even judge.

Had Ch Iftikhar taken oath on PCO 2, would you have regarded him corrupt?

@Sa1eem

Two judges can have entirely two different opinions on same subject and can give two different verdicts. Fukhruddin G Ibrahim is retired. He is not Chief Justice of Pakistan. He is not even Judge. Chief Justice of Pakistan is Dogar and if any judgment needs to come, it has to come from Chief Justice Dogar and current judges of Supreme Court.

So what if FGI is retired, does it mean he does not understand law anymore?

Another thing is that, no judge was sacked on or after 3rd November.

Why was emergency imposed? Because of lack of chief justice in SC?

[Sa1eem]

Re: Judges restoration, YES/NO? Clarification (Threads Merged)

@ehtasab

Had Ch Iftikhar taken oath on PCO 2, would you have regarded him corrupt?

Brother, be serious :). What taking oath on PCO is to do with being corrupt? Yaar, I am not born again Ganja the corrupt living in world of illusion or his supporter. … You should know that I doubt if there was any judge in Pakistan that did not took oath on PCO (think about it :)).

I consider Iftikhar corrupt because allegations were made against him and he did not defend the allegations like any honest and respectable man would have done, rather he used all tricks and tactics to avoid defending those allegations. Situation is that, even now I have no reason to believe that he was not guilty of all those allegations. If allegations were not made and in result of those allegations enquiry was not held, I would not have considered Iftikhar corrupt.

I consider other judges corrupt because they not only stopped the investigation of alleged corruption by SJC, but supported corrupt Iftikhar in every way showing partiality and shamefully used their office to stop investigation, in such way that any intelligent Pakistani would think about their verdict as illogical and supportive of corruption.

[Before that, when Iftikhar was suspended and allegations charges were sent to SJC for investigation, even though seeing the nature of allegations, I realised that Iftikhar was corrupt (as allegations were clear and obvious that could not be made if they were not true), still I used to write even on this forum that we could not call Iftikhar corrupt until investigation is done and judgment on his charges are made. At that time I did not knew that Iftikhar would make so much hue and cry and his corrupt colleague Supreme Court judges would stoop so low that they would stop even SJC investigating].

So what if FGI is retired, does it mean he does not understand law anymore?

Of course he understands laws. But then all lawyers understand laws, still they contest in court on their own understanding, and have to abide by the judgments of Judges (even if judgements are wrong). Though, if judgements are obvious wrong and completely illogical, people have all right to consider that the judgments given are wrong and Judges made judgment because of their bias, because they were paid to be bias (making judgment by taking rushwat), or made judgment under pressure. In such situation, judgments get honoured by judges get tarnished (and it becomes duty of government to replace such tarnished judges).

Why was emergency imposed? Because of lack of chief justice in SC?

Well, if you do not know the situation at that time than most likely you would never know or would never understand :).

If you really want to know what I understand and what I know, then from what I know, emergency was result of cumulative things. For instance, Media was paid by past corrupts like NS and BB and maybe foreign powers too, to create mischief and spread lies, what media on behalf of their pay masters were doing effectively to misguided already misguided and illiterate Pakistanis who are in abundance. Judiciary was also doing all to destabilise the country and were getting paid again by corrupts plus most likely some western interests. When masses did not sided with these evil forces to destabilise Pakistan, corrupts and foreign interests paid corrupt lawyers of Pakistan, NGOs, and some other vocal idiots to do all what they can and spread lies, so that government and country get destabilised.

All these factors and many other factors was hindering the ability of government not only in fighting terrorists but also in keeping law and order situation within country under control, stop spread of lies from media, stop population getting misguided and disillusioned, and stop past corrupts and foreign anti-Pakistan forces from interfering and trying to deteriorate Pakistan economical and social situation. Hence, emergency was introduced not only to show these forces that if government wants to they can use hard hand too, plus to use emergency laws to stop mischief that was spreading at that time.

[ehtasab]

Re: Judges restoration, YES/NO? Clarification (Threads Merged)

@Sa1eem

Brother, be serious :). What taking oath on PCO is to do with being corrupt? Yaar, I am not born again Ganja the corrupt living in world of illusion or his supporter. … You should know that I doubt if there was any judge in Pakistan that did not took oath on PCO (think about it :)).

Why don’t you tell us the relationship between corruption and taking oath as you keep parroting the word “corrupt” everytime you talk about Ch Iftikhar refusing to take oath on 2nd PCO?

I consider Iftikhar corrupt because allegations were made against him and he did not defend the allegations like any honest and respectable man would have done, rather he used all tricks and tactics to avoid defending those allegations. Situation is that, even now I have no reason to believe that he was not guilty of all those allegations. If allegations were not made and in result of those allegations enquiry was not held, I would not have considered Iftikhar corrupt.

Why is he not being prosecuted in a court now for the crimes he committed? Please no BS about “reconciliation” or “forgiving nature” etc.?

I consider other judges corrupt because they not only stopped the investigation of alleged corruption by SJC, but supported corrupt Iftikhar in every way showing partiality and shamefully used their office to stop investigation, in such way that any intelligent Pakistani would think about their verdict as illogical and supportive of corruption.

Who is responsible for calling a Judicial council, is it President’s responsibility or PM’s? or is it upto SC bench to decide whether to invoke a SJC or not?

[Before that, when Iftikhar was suspended and allegations charges were sent to SJC for investigation, even though seeing the nature of allegations, I realised that Iftikhar was corrupt (as allegations were clear and obvious that could not be made if they were not true), still I used to write even on this forum that we could not call Iftikhar corrupt until investigation is done and judgment on his charges are made. At that time I did not knew that Iftikhar would make so much hue and cry and his corrupt colleague Supreme Court judges would stoop so low that they would stop even SJC investigating].

Who was on the SJC bench? How did they “stop” SJC?

Of course he understands laws. But then all lawyers understand laws, still they contest in court on their own understanding, and have to abide by the judgments of Judges (even if judgements are wrong). Though, if judgements are obvious wrong and completely illogical, people have all right to consider that the judgments given are wrong and Judges made judgment because of their bias, because they were paid to be bias (making judgment by taking rushwat), **or made judgment under pressure. **In such situation, judgments get honoured by judges get tarnished (and it becomes duty of government to replace such tarnished judges).

Who paid these judges? Is there a proof or just fabrication? Who pressurised them?

For the last bolded part, I thought you said govt didn’t “replace” the judges rather the judges refused to be on SC bench by not taking oath, so which is it?

**All these factors and many other factors was hindering the ability of government not only in fighting terrorists but also in keeping law and order situation within country under control, **stop spread of lies from media, stop population getting misguided and disillusioned, and stop past corrupts and foreign anti-Pakistan forces from interfering and trying to deteriorate Pakistan economical and social situation. Hence, emergency was introduced not only to show these forces that if government wants to they can use hard hand too, plus to use emergency laws to stop mischief that was spreading at that time.

yes sir! After announcing emergency, removing “corrupt judges” everything was fine and dandy in Pakistan… by the way the judges who freed “terrorists” took oath on 2nd PCO and are sitting in SC

[Sa1eem]

Re: Judges restoration, YES/NO? Clarification (Threads Merged)

@ehtasab

Why don’t you tell us the relationship between corruption and taking oath as you keep parroting the word “corrupt” everytime you talk about Ch Iftikhar refusing to take oath on 2nd PCO?

Is this your above statement true or lie? If it is true, can you please quote any of my post where I linked taking (or not taking) oath on 2nd PCO with corruption?

Why is he not being prosecuted in a court now for the crimes he committed? Please no BS about “reconciliation” or “forgiving nature” etc.?

Well, I hope that you are replying after reading my post and not B-Sing for sake of B-Sing:). Have your not read in my above post that if judge gives wrong verdict, still that verdict get carried out? So, judge cannot get persecuted or punished on wrong judgments. They can only get persecuted or punished for other charges not related to judgments, like nepotism, corruption, misuse of power, misconduct, etc. Here is quote of what I wrote (in your reply regarding FGI understanding law).

So what if FGI is retired, does it mean he does not understand law anymore?

Of course he understands laws. But then all lawyers understand laws, still they contest in court on their own understanding, and have to abide by the judgments of Judges (even if judgements are wrong).

So, obviously Iftikhar cannot be persecuted for wrong judgments. As for punishment on corruption and other charges, if Iftikhar was to be dealt fairly, that could have happened after giving Iftikhar chance to defend against such allegations. President did try to give Iftikhar chance to defend himself as President sent reference to SJC to get investigated. So, punishment of Iftikhar was supposed to happen after investigation by SJC. Unfortunately, corrupt judges of Supreme Court stopped SJC to carry out investigation and since result of investigation did not come out, punishment did not happen.

Who is responsible for calling a Judicial council, is it President’s responsibility or PM’s? or is it upto SC bench to decide whether to invoke a SJC or not?

President is responsible to call Supreme Judicial Council to investigation any judge if there are allegations on that judge (coming to the notice of President from any source). Later, President uses the result of that investigation to decide what to do with that particular judge.

With regard to Iftikhar, allegations came from various sources (also got published in some news papers) and due to such allegations, Prime Minister referred the allegations to President, who asked SJC to investigate.

Though SJC can start investigation without reference from President, they cannot do anything of that investigation, as they have no authority on other judges. Only President can act or sack a judge. Thus, it is not duty of SC judges to ask SJC to investigate other judges, and in reality it was ridiculous of Supreme Court Judges to interfere or stop Supreme Judicial Council from investigation, but they did and since Iftikhar made the case not judicial but public case, government did not pursued the case (it was political decision by government not to question the verdict by Surpeme Court and let Iftikhar get away with corruption).

Who was on the SJC bench? How did they “stop” SJC?

SJC bench consists of CJ plus 2 other most senior Supreme Court Judges plus two most senior Chief Justices of High Courts. If reference is against CJ or any other judge that should be part of SJC, then next senior judge replaces that judge.

SJC is answerable to President only and is above any Court (as it investigates other judges and can even recommend removal of judges to President).

Read article 208 of constitution and it will tell you that it is President who is responsible (for Supreme Court and Federal Shariet Court) in making rules of appointment of Judges or any other court employees, including terms and conditions of their employment. [Governors, who are representative of President, are responsible for High Courts].

Similarly, you can read Article 209 (clause 6 B) of the constitution that would tell you that it is only President who can remove Judges.

http://www.na.gov.pk/constitution.pdf

Who paid these judges? Is there a proof or just fabrication? Who pressurised them?

Now what answer I can give to you? You are asking question same way some Pakistanis ask when they are told that SHO that lives in 50 million rupee house is corrupt.

For the last bolded part, I thought you said govt didn’t “replace” the judges rather the judges refused to be on SC bench by not taking oath, so which is it?

Yea, I did. Judges were not replaced but they lost their job because they refused to work. They could have only worked if they had taken oath under PCO, because after emergency, constitution was put in abeyance and it became working requirement of Judges to take oath on PCO so that they can give judgments and verdicts according to PCO.

yes sir! After announcing emergency, removing “corrupt judges” everything was fine and dandy in Pakistan… by the way the judges who freed “terrorists” took oath on 2nd PCO and are sitting in SC

Yaar, what can one do when some people use good laugh for nothing. Their good laugh only shows that they have no substance and are hiding behind good laughs

In short, my answer to your question is: Yes. After PCO, most things that needed danda were put in place and became fine.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Judges restoration, YES/NO? Clarification (Threads Merged)

http://dawn.com/2008/03/04/nat.htm

Three parties discuss modalities today: Judges reinstatement

By Ashraf Mumtaz

LAHORE, March 3: Represe-ntatives of the Pakistan People’s Party, the PML-N and the Awami National Party are due to meet in Islamabad on Tuesday to discuss the modalities for the restoration of the deposed judges of superior courts and resolve the crisis the country has been in the grip of for the past one year.

All the three parties, that are going to set up a coalition at the center in the light of an agreement already reached between them, don’t support the viewpoint put forward by important lawyers that the judges could be restored through an executive order.

“A solution has to come through parliament, which alone is competent to deal with such matters”, said a leader who will be taking part in the deliberations.

Senators Sardar Lateef Khosa, Farooq Naek (PPP), Senator Ishaq Dar and MNA-elect Khwaja Asif (PML-N) will participate in the meeting.

The ANP is yet to nominate its representative.

The participants would see if the restoration of judges would be possible through a constitutional amendment, an enactment passed by a simple majority or a resolution.

They would also discuss the fate of the judges who had taken oath first under the PCO to save their jobs and then the 1973 Constitution to stay on.

According to a leader the reinstatement of sacked judges would be a complicated issue as several judges had also been deposed after military interventions and promulgation of the Provisional Constitution Orders in 1981 and 1999. He said if the victims of the Nov 3, 2007 PCO were to be brought back, the cases of those sacked in the past should also be looked into. But then, he said, it would take a very long time to settle the matter.

Also, he said, it was not clear what the new government would have to do in case all the sacked judges were restored and the post-Nov appointees also retained in their positions.

He said if the “PCO judges” are retained and their deposed counterparts also brought back, the total number of judges would go beyond the sanctioned strength of courts, a situation for which a separate solution would be needed.

He pointed out that a judge of a superior court could be removed only through the procedure laid down in the Constitution. And if the ‘extra fat’ has to be shed, the Constitution would have to be followed.

A source said the decisions to be taken by the three-party committee would facilitate the parliament in resolving the crisis that has paralyzed the judicial system.

The committee would try to find a formula that would require the minimum time to implement.

[ehtasab]

Re: Judges restoration, YES/NO? Clarification (Threads Merged)

@Sa1eem

Is this your above statement true or lie? If it is true, can you please quote any of my post where I linked taking (or not taking) oath on 2nd PCO with corruption?

I didn’t say you LINKED the two, I said you kept raising the issue wherever you talked about his refusing to take oath

Well, I hope that you are replying after reading my post and not B-Sing for sake of B-Sing:). Have your not read in my above post that if judge gives wrong verdict, still that verdict get carried out? So, judge cannot get persecuted or punished on wrong judgments. They can only get persecuted or punished for other charges not related to judgments, like nepotism, corruption, misuse of power, misconduct, etc. Here is quote of what I wrote (in your reply regarding FGI understanding law).

oh yaar, I am talking about his crimes obviously, read my statement here:

Why is he not being prosecuted in a court now for the crimes he committed?

@Sa1eem

So, obviously Iftikhar cannot be persecuted for wrong judgments. As for punishment on corruption and other charges, if Iftikhar was to be dealt fairly, that could have happened after giving Iftikhar chance to defend against such allegations. President did try to give Iftikhar chance to defend himself as President sent reference to SJC to get investigated. So, punishment of Iftikhar was supposed to happen after investigation by SJC. Unfortunately, corrupt judges of Supreme Court stopped SJC to carry out investigation and since result of investigation did not come out, punishment did not happen.

Lets say the Ch Iftikhar is corrupted of the crimes in the reference, care to elaborate on the timings of his crimes? I bet he didn’t commit all those crimes in a space of 2-3 months after taking “panga” with Musharraf.

@Sa1eem

Though SJC can start investigation without reference from President, they cannot do anything of that investigation, as they have no authority on other judges. Only President can act or sack a judge. Thus, it is not duty of SC judges to ask SJC to investigate other judges, and in reality it was ridiculous of Supreme Court Judges to interfere or stop Supreme Judicial Council from investigation, but they did and since Iftikhar made the case not judicial but public case, government did not pursued the case (it was political decision by government not to question the verdict by Surpeme Court and let Iftikhar get away with corruption).

Thats all fine and dandy, corrupt and crook SC bench is out. Now that “corruption-free” SC is on the bench, why is govt not prosecuting Ch Iftikhar?

@Sa1eem

Now what answer I can give to you? You are asking question same way some Pakistanis ask when they are told that SHO that lives in 50 million rupee house is corrupt.

SHO extorts money from people thru his subordinates, are you suggesting Ch Iftikhar was doing same?

@Sa1eem

Yea, I did. Judges were not replaced but they lost their job because they refused to work. They could have only worked if they had taken oath under PCO, because after emergency, constitution was put in abeyance and it became working requirement of Judges to take oath on PCO so that they can give judgments and verdicts according to PCO.

so the “corrupt” judges didn’t continue on the job, had they taken oath they’d have been on the bench and govt would’ve been okay with the corrupt judges on the bench, is that what you are saying?