Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I think it is safe to assume that these three relegions gaurentee salvation through blind obedience as opposed to moral behaviour.
Often it is the misconeption of the apologising modernist muslims to present Islam in a moral light. Morality is not the issue.
The nature of life is cruel. Sceintists or philosphers would find common ground for agreement here.
The food chain where God ordains the consumption of one creation by the other is certainly not moral.
The expulsion from Paradise is an essential criteria for analysis. Lucifer who enjoyed the favour of God, lost unique Privilege through disobedience. By refusing to bow down to Adam, He made an independant choice. I think this act does not fall under the realm of morality. It was an action based on personal pride and logical judgement. Lucifer felt simply that he was superior to Adam. For good reason perhaps. After all Lucifer was fire, and at that time a spiritual being. It was his disobedience however that angered God.
Surely a contradiction does exist here. The worship of one God is disturbed by the sudden announcement to now bow down to Adam. The Angels did bow down. That is not virtue, because scholars tell us they do not posses the faculty of free will.
Monotheist relegions must also face the dual nature of God with courage. They must understand that if truly there is only one God, then all things good and EVIL come from divine will. Hence it would be logical to assume that God has elements of Evil within his complicated nature.
The holy Qoran is well pepered with stories that recount the Anger of God. The wrath of God. The Prophet however informed his people that Anger was evil, even Satanic. An Angry God therefor is hardly a perfect being free from the taint of Evil.
The concept of reward is another intresting aspect of this controversial analysis. Sex in certain conditions is forbiden on earth , however paradise is well endowed with obedient women to satisfy the lust of eternal life. Though silk and extravagance is forbidden heaven holds no limit to such rewards. Truly the information above leaves the observer with the impression that we play the game of obedience. Rules and Obedience take precedence over Morality.

Resistance

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According to these religions, we can say that obedience to God is one of the aspects, or components of morality.

Also, the concept of morality can vary from person to person. Religion serves a purpose of making things universal and absolute. Let's consider the following example-- some people would think that it's alright to kill someone for some fault in him/her, let's say greed. Now, it is religion that tells them that you can only kill under certain circumstances, such as self defence, retribution, and so on, therefore, it would be wrong to kill this person simply because he doesn't like to share money.

Also, you'll encounter people saying "who says this is good or bad," as I mentioned before, if we are left to choose on our own, everyone will have their own different idea of morality.

If God told us something and tells us this is good, and that is bad, then we have something universal and absolute.

One can say disobeying your master is immoral. But I guess being moral is about wanting to do good, and abstain from evil. Islam does teach morality, implicitly at least. By being obedient to God, one can start hating that which is disobedience to God. Therefore, one will develop a tendency to do good and abstain from evil, which I believe is morality. I do also believe, as I said before, that obedience to God is included in morality. What is good and what is evil is decided by God. Since being good implies obedience to God, and vice versa, and being evil implies the disobedience of God and vice versa, obeying God is moral, and disobeying him is immoral.

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Assalam alaikum

Resistance,

Please don't compare Islam with Judaism and Christianity. They are completely different. Judaism and Christianity are religions whereas Islam is not.

You seem to compare man's actions with Allah's (S.W.T.) actions.

Bowing down to Adam (A.S.) was not worshipping Adam (A.S.)

Allah (S.W.T.) Has created everything in pairs. Allah (S.W.T.) told us what is good and what is evil. Pride is also something were not allowed to have because it belongs to Allah (S.W.T.)

My point is He is the Supreme Lawmaker, He is Sovereign, He is Perfect, He has the Supreme authority and Power to do anything He wants.

We are here as Vicegerents of Allah (S.W.T.) We will not be able to do our duty if we indulge too much into the worldly pleasures. Anyway what's the point this life is temporary, why risk losing eternal life in Jannah for a temporary life in this world?

Obeying laws is moral so when we obey Laws set by Allah (S.W.T.) we are performing a moral action.

I think that you don't see how obedience to Allah (S.W.T.) affects our lives.

Assalam alaikum

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Mr Asif, and Mr Mudassar,
Morality does exist outside relegion. The role of relegion revolves around the institutionalization of morality. Islam did not give birth to human morality it exisited long before.
The Prophet of Islam was known to be a decent individual before divine revealations. His honesty earned him the title of AlAmeen. The real reason Islam apealed to the Pagans was its apeal to logic and simple humanity. These were aspects people could relate to.
Now that we are clear that morality and relegion are seperate entities we can proceed further.
You may recount the famous incident inwhich the Prophet exclaimed "If I tell you there is an army behind the mountain waiting to attack will you beleive me?"
They said "Yes". Why ?
Simply due to the fact that the Prophet apealed to their secular sense of logic. He then proceeded to make the most famous claim" Then beleive me also when I tell you I am the messenger of God...."
As you may have noticed morality functions on reason where as Obedience functions on faith. The Prophet's uncle who helped him during the years in Mecca was not a professed Muslim. He was a good man, He was moral but not obedeint to God.
The most obvious example is the Story of Abraham.It is a well known fact that killing an innocent child is wrong and immoral. However God asked Abraham to slaughter Ismail. Here lies the classic conflict between Obedience and Morality.
Abraham chose obedience and consented to slaughter. God rewarded Abraham not for morality but for obedience.
In the example I mentioned above morality and obedeince are two seperate and opposing realities.

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Assalam alaikum

Resistance,

I'm not saying that morality began when Islam began but Islam clearly defined morality for us. It gives us our rights and wrongs. The people who were just and honest now knew that they were being rewarded for their good actions.

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) people used to burn their daughters alive before the Prophet (S.A.W.) put a stop to this, but my point is the people considered it a moral obligation.

When the Prophet (S.A.W.) said there is only one God, the people considered what he was doing to be immoral.

You've got the story of Hadhrat Ibrahim (A.S.) wrong.

Allah (S.W.T.) asked the Prophet Ibrahim to sacrifice what was most precious to him. The prophet thought about this and realised it was his own son which was most precious to him. When he tried to sacrifice his son an angel came and put a lamb in his place.

Doesn't obedience cross over to become a moral action? since obedience just doesn't lie in prayer it's in every action.

I'm not questioning the fact that obedience and morality can exist without each other but then you've got to ask whether these morals are universal and also whats the difference between morals and social norms.

Obedience is the reason why we do a moral action. Morality on its own cannot exist in a set form unless there is something compelling a person to do a moral action.

Assalam alaikum

[This message has been edited by Mudassar (edited 10-01-98).]

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Morals are defined by people, what may be moral in one society may not be in another.

Its really shallow to compare Islam to morals, just because you see something as a good action, doesn't mean it really is a good action and neither does it mean Islam sees it as a good action.

The fact of the matter is that if you could determine good and bad, then there would be no need for guidance, the haq ie Islam.
Allah(swt) says:
"...and you may dislike a thing which is good for you and you may like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows and you know not...[tmq]

So in Islam, going in the battle field and forcibly departing the head of a Kuffar who is an obsticle in the way of dawah and Jihad is seen by Islam as a good Action, whereas this may not be to everyone liking.

secondly, since you are the creation "...created from a drop of dirty water..."tmq] and Allah(swt) is the CREATOR...ALLAH(swt) decides which action is good----not humans.

Thirdly we should all be aware of not trying to understand the essence of Allah, which is beyond us, his proof of existence is enough for us to have CONVICTION!!!!!!!

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Peace be upon you!
First of all, your starting sentence is very weak:
"I think it is safe to assume that these three relegions gaurentee salvation through blind obedience as opposed to moral behaviour."

and thats what you have based the discussion on.

but i cant go any further, until you define "morality" ! what is morality??

All religions, all sets of laws, in the world, are based on a single truth! this is known as a mono-istic approach. all the components of the religion, or the set of laws, or a philosophy, are actually derived from that ultimate truth.

in islam, that ultimate truth is "toheed". thus a person believing in islam will find it "moral" for abraham to slaughter his son for allah! while you dont!

Morality is not an absolute term, it is just based on a persons own perception of it. according to every religion, morality will be something which is ultimately in accordance with its main truth, the truth the religion is based on.

thus for an atheist, morality has a different meaning, for a muslim, it has a completely different one, smililarly, different meanings of morality will be seen in other religions.

so morality for someone, is usually something in accordance with the religion or set of laws one is following, and has different meanings for you and mudassar, or you and asif.

Those believing in islam will call everything moral, which is in accordance with their religion, and the same holds for people believing in any other set of laws.

so if you still insist that Morality is an absolute term, and Allah's actions, the ones you have mentioned are immoral, then please tell me how you define morality. According to what definition of morality are Allah's deed immoral?

i do not say that allah's deeds are no immoral, or not moral, i just want to know how you seperate moral from immoral? i mean what exactly do you mean by morality?

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I would like to express my gratitude for the excellent information all of you have provided. Indeed I did overlook the fact that the relegion of Islam is an inspiration for many actions that may be termed as moral. Great acts of compassion are often the result of a relegious law.
I think Socrates defines morality as
"Any Thing arising from good will".
Mr Mudassar argued and perhaps correctly so, that in case of Abraham his actions of sacrifise was moral from his perspective.
The example that I have provided of Abraham is also weak from a historical analysis. In my desire to further the cause of my own argument I had forgotten that Ismail volunteered willingly to be slaghtered. Hence free will was involved.
Also the example may not be used against Islam simply because Islam was in a stage of evolution during the age of Abraham.It may also be argued that the pious father and son wished to express their "good will" to the Creator through utlimate sacrifise. Hence they did infact satisfy the Socrates defination of morality.
Someoneelse brought up the issue of relative morality. Mr Mudasar and Asif propounded the need for clear defination in human behaviour.
I must now admit that my example of Lucifer does not hold water. Clearly Lucifer was obliged to serve his ultimate master. The refusal was a breach of contract. A betrayel.
Frankly Gentlemen, you have cornered me with your reasonable arguments. I was wrong.

Resistance

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Resistance,
God bless you!

summed it up pretty right, though you didnt have to say u are wrong. you were kinda right, keeping in mind the way you were previously looking at morality.

I always learn a lot from your posts, wish to keep hearing from you!

May allah be your protector!

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

An excellent thread. very old just wanted to bring it up.

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

If one defines morality to be that which pleases God, then clearly obedience and morality is one in the same...no?

If not, then what universal measure of morality to use? Here in the West, it is NOT okay to murder innocents in terrorist acts...yet the moral similarity of that act with so-called collateral damage incurred during military operations is striking. Or, alternatively, it demonstrates how fickle secular morality is.

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

How is that any more fickle than murderous regimes of multiple Muslim countries or the huge support for terrorists that kill innocents? Or the sectarian militias who claim righteousness when murdering those from different sects? Even within mosques! Fickle is as fickle does.

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

LOL, I see my bait has caught me a fish.

Yes dear, believers can be dopes too...but, it must be pointed out, that the so-called huge support you reference is a bit of imagination. Muslims have a nasty habit of ignoring or white washing away the atrocities from militants and terrorists...you know, it was reallly the Jews...that sort of thing.

As annoying as that is, it is hardly akin to the very real justification that is held by nearly all and sundry here that it is accpetable to kill civilians as a consequence of military action. You know, your boys over there...heroes and all...heck they can even sing songs about it, and get a nice pat on the back. Slaughter several Iraqi families...but pity the solider anyway...must be work related stress...

But am I to believe you are brave enough to admit the similarities in the consequence of the actions of terrorists and your soldiers? Or are you going to pull the "force of nature" argument on me...you know, the one that presumes Americas might and it's vindictive nature...that the terrorists brought this all on the civilians...as if they failed to do a tribal dance and invoked the wrath of a vindictive god...and so the civilian victims are something like the victims of a natural disaster...

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality


Ok, I'll bite. When in history has there been a war without civilian casualties? Never in history has a military been so careful as to avoid civilian casualties in such a massive campaign. That doesn't mean there hasn't been bad apples commiting heinous crimes. But I, like most westerners, are appalled at their actions and do not morally excuse them. They are terrorists. But they are being reported, tried and prosecuted, unlike those who commited the attrocities against East Pakistanis in 1971 who have gone unpunished. I don't hear anyone clamoring for that. Was that a force of nature?

And I disagree that the whitewashing, denial and blaming of the Jews is less of a moral sin.

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

^ Waging a war based upon lies is pure morality.

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

This is, of course, nonsense. One only need compare the civilian casualties of WWI and WWII to see how modern warfare has changed the rules of engagement. Civilian casualties in urbanized or populated areas were typically avoided because the battle field was in desolate areas.

Mind you, it's hardly Genghis Khan style murder what the Americans do...but then, that was not the claim.

But then, this doesn't answer the question. Never mind about history, or what the Pakistanis did (or the Americans in viet nam for that matter)...or any other military organization. The point is that when comparing what terrorists do to what a military does, the end results are shockingly the same.

To suggest one is godless and evil while the other is normal and acceptable is well...laughable if it were not so dire a topic.

[quote]

And I disagree that the whitewashing, denial and blaming of the Jews is less of a moral sin.
[/quote]

...of course you do...

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality


LOL. Now that is total nonsense. I suggest you read up on WWII or talk to the survivors of London or Dresden bombings, or to the survivors of concentration camps where there was mass murder of certain groups of civilians.

[quote]
But then, this doesn't answer the question. Never mind about history, or what the Pakistanis did (or the Americans in viet nam for that matter)...or any other military organization. The point is that when comparing what terrorists do to what a military does, the end results are shockingly the same.
[/quote]
Great. The world is waiting to hear how you propose man continue wars (which he has since the dawn of time and even spread religion by it) without killing any civilians. You are living in la-la land if you think that is even possible.

[quote]
To suggest one is godless and evil while the other is normal and acceptable is well...laughable if it were not so dire a topic.
[/quote]
I agree.

[quote]
...of course you do...
[/quote]
To deny reality is lying. It makes it so you don't have the moral quandry of accepting or criticizing.

Pk guys who married "foreign" born&bred: pls comment
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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

That was my point...WWI was mostly military deaths. WWII had set the pace for contemporary warefare.

[quote]

Great. The world is waiting to hear how you propose man continue wars (which he has since the dawn of time and even spread religion by it) without killing any civilians. You are living in la-la land if you think that is even possible.

[/quote]

Again, you miss (or ignore) the point; is this an admission that terrorism is akin to warefare?

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

Very well presented and thoughtful.

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Re: Judaio Christian Islamic Relegions Focus On Obedience Not Morality

A true gentleman.