John mcCain: Pakistan was a failed state in 1999!

Ehtasab bhai: getting $billions ... what $billions you are talking about? Pakistan gets and spends $billions in various ways. For instance:

Exports and Imports of goods and services
Income: Interest, profits, dividends ... Pakistan receives or leaves Pakistan.
Transfers and Capital account: Remittances, Grants and debt forgiveness
Financial account: Pakistanis investment abroad or foreign direct investment coming to Pakistan.
Open market activities: Dollars that Pakistan 'purchases from' or 'sell to' open market

Re: John mcCain: Pakistan was a failed state in 1999!

how many of you were happy the week Musharraf tookover from Shareef?

How many were happy when Musharraf's party was routed badly :D

Btw, the republican/Mccain definition of a failed state is one that's not under their control.

I'm surprised I've to "clarify" that question. Lets start with "reserves", shall we? What particular "account" of the nation shows it was "rich" during 1999-2008, just pick that one...

You asked two questions: Reserve and what shows that Pakistan was rich during 1999-2008. I can answer you from whatever little I know, but it is impossible for me to answer your questions in one liner. Even though I feel reluctant to give complete answer as it can take several paragraphs, and many have no ability to read more than one line, still I am doing it to make things clear.

Reserves: Good foreign exchange reserve does not make a country rich. However, foreign exchange reserve gives credibility to a Country in world financial market, give confidence to investors, attract foreign direct investments, help Country to get low interest loans, helps the Country avoid defaulting on servicing foreign debts, and avoid country from going bankrupt. Value of a Country’s reserve is nothing to do with amount of reserve, but it is to do with relation to a Country’s import. With a reserve of few hundred million dollars in 1999, Pakistan defaulted on its dollar bond interest payment and was on verge of getting declared bankrupt country. With over $16.5 billion dollars reserve last year, Pakistan had enough dollars to cover 9 months import and was well placed for economical growth and progress, attracting foreign investments and offers of dollar loans at very low interest rate.

Pakistan was rich during 1999-2008? Well, Pakistan was never rich and there is no chance that it would become rich in near future (especially when we have corrupts in power). Anyhow, Pakistan was getting richer during 1999-2008.

How rich a country is can only be seen by GDP per capita of the country in current US dollars (dollars, because it is the only international trading currency at present).

Pakistan Per capita GDP, that was stagnant from 1988 to 1999, more than doubled between 1999 and 2008. Look at the figures and decide yourself. Here is Pakistan per capita GDP in US dollars at various dates.

Source: http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/fbs/statis…unts/table2.pdf

Ayub Khan:
1960-61 = $91
1969-70 = $170
Increased 87 percent or on average at the rate of 7.2 percent a year.

Z A Bhutto:
1971-72 = $184
1976-77 = $213
Increased 15.8 percent or on average at the rate of 3 percent a year.

Zia-ul-Haq:
1976-77 = $213
1987-88 = $395
Increased 85.5 percent or on average at the rate of 5.8 percent a year.

Nawaz and BB (1988-1999):
1987-88 = $395
1988-99 = $468
Increased 18.5 percent or on average at the rate of 1.55 percent a year.

Musharraf (1999-2008):
1998-99 = $458
2007-08 = $1085
Increased 137 percent or on average at the rate of 10.06 percent a year.

There was rebasing of the account in 2000, something should happen every 5 years. Due to rebasing, GDP shows a bit of increase. Anyhow, many propagandists wanting to fool ignorant Pakistanis seeing such increase during Musharraf period, start shouting that increase could be due to rebasing, that last happened in 1980, but corrupt politicians ruling during ‘1988 and 1999’ had no ability or time to rebase the account, as they were too much involved in looting and plundering, and were not even concerned about economy. Anyhow, if we increase the period of ‘Nawaz and BB’ until 2000, so that rebasing effects goes out of Musharaf period and get included in ‘Nawaz and BB’ period, here is the figures.

Nawaz and BB (1988-2000 … that includes effect of rebasing of account):
1987-88 = $395
1999-00 = $531
Increased 34.4 percent or on average at the rate of 2.5 percent a year.

[Note: in above figures, all effect of rebasing is included … that also includes a part of increase due to Zia-ul-Haq period (1980-1988). Anyhow, still we had very low increase during this 12 years period]

Musharraf (2000-2008):
1999-00 = $531
2007-08 = $1085
Increased 104 percent or on average at the rate of 9.34 percent a year.

Thus, it shows that Pakistan GDP per capita increased the fasted during Musharraf period and thus Pakistan was getting richer.

Total national debt per capita also shows how country is doing economically, as high income with high debt does not mean richness. Pakistan National debt was increasing very fast during 1988 and 1999. Actually, Pakistan debt increased from around $30 billion dollars (rupee debt plus dollar debt) in 1988 to around $75 billion dollars in 1999. That was an increase of 250 percent in 11 years, or shows an increase at an average of 8.7 percent a year. Pakistan total debt in 1999 was more than twice Pakistan GDP.

Pakistan National debt did not increase much during 1999 and 2008. Pakistan debt increased from over $75 billion in 1999 to around $90 billion dollars today (Sept 2008). That is an increase of 20 percent during 9 years, or increased at the rate of 2 percent a year. This debt is slightly over half of Pakistan GDP (note: substantial amount of mentioned debt was taken after Shaukat Aziz resigned as Prime Minister in Nov 2007, still overall debt is quite reasonable).

Stock market rise of a country shows the richness, progress and development of a country. Country’s currency stability and strength shows richness of a country and strength of the economy. Pakistan stock market declined from 1988 to 1999 and value of dollar increased 300 percent. During 1999 to 2008, Pakistan stock market increased over 1000 percent and rupee exchange rate was stable throughout.

Government richness (different from country’s richness) depends on tax collection minus interest government pays on National debt, as that is the money government could use to develop the country. Pakistan was paying low interest rate during last 8 years (due to prudent economy management), and thus most of tax collection was used for development, especially during years after 2002. As for tax collection, Pakistan tax collection was stagnant in dollars between 1988 and 1999 (rather, it was declining), but as the country started getting richer and better managed, Pakistan tax collection increased around 300 percent in dollars between 1999 and 2008. Pakistan federal tax collection was Rs 308 billion rupee ($6.5 billion dollars) in 1999, that figure increased to over Rs 1000 billion (around $16 billion dollars) in 2008.

So, you can see that Pakistan was getting richer.

It was a failed state in 1999!

Damn, we are so developed now aren't we? i can't believe it.

Pathetic statement by a pathetic person.

I beg to differ that pakistan was getting richer during musharraf's time. Loan doesn't make a nation richer.

Why is there so much struggle for the on going govt. to cope with the crisis if musharraf has made pakistan richer?

There is actually a statement or a cashflow which shows pakistan might not be able to pay it's debt in the next year and it would fall into a bankrupt state.

I don't believe in futile figures made up to please foolish people.

Even if Pakistan was "getting richer" none of the problems/issues used to determine "failed state" were improving IMO.

Re: John mcCain: Pakistan was a failed state in 1999!

You guys are something else!

2 foreigners are slandering Pakistan as a failure. One says it is a failure and the other says it has been a failure for a long time.

Instead of ignoring or arguing that it is noit really a failure you are arguing which of the 2 foreigners are more right.

Noting makes a country fail more than its own citizenry thinking it has in toto.

Guess it is time for islamic theocracy to take over - now that dictatorship demopcracy and feudalistic systems hjave all failed.

I don't agree, citizens don't make a state "failed" by "thinking it has failed" rather participating in activities which make it "failed", like committing crimes, looting/plundering, spreading anarchy etc. Checkout the crime rate in our cities.

Alhamdolillah we are neither Sudan, Somalia nor Lebanon but if we don't fix things soon we will become their Asian counterpart.

If you do not know economics than why try to make fool of yourself?

A country is rich or poor depends on wealth of people living or investing in that country. If richest 1000 Americans would leave USA with their assets, and would settle in Afghanistan, investing all their wealth in Afghanistan, than that would be transfer of around 10,000 billion dollars from USA to Afghanistan. If that would happen then Afghanistan would become one of the richest Countries in the world and USA would become quite poor.

In same way, when crooks came to power in Pakistan, many rich Pakistanis and foreigners moved their investment, worth billions of dollars, from Pakistan to other countries, making Pakistan again a near to bankrupt country from being reasonable well placed. Most wealth transfer from Pakistan to abroad happened during last 6 months (especially after Ishaq Daar TV briefing in early April). Effect of this wealth transfer could be very damaging if government does not do anything quick about it. If nothing is done, country may default and may get declared as bankrupt, people would start seeing loss of jobs (as many businesses would start closing down or going bankrupt), loss of purchasing power (due to high inflation but low increase in wages), very high interest rate in the country, and rupee touching Rs 100 to a dollar.

That would mean stagnation in tax collection. Pakistan collects taxes in rupee. Whenever dollar appreciates a rupee, Pakistan external debt increases by Rs 45 billion (dollar has already appreciated 16 rupee during last 6 months). Pakistan services foreign debts in dollars, so servicing cost would increase substantially. Increase in Pakistan internal interest rate (that has already increased around 4 percent since April) would cause rupee debt expensive. To finance deficit (or to loot), more debt would be taken. So, in the end, as before, most of Pakistani taxes would go on paying debt and Pakistan would again start living from hand to mouth, begging from everyone all over the world, just to survive. Then we may see again, Pakistani Prime Minister with his hat out asking Pakistanis all over the world to save Pakistan by giving Kharat to the country (Qarz uttaro Mulk Sawaro ... part 2) ... that is different matter that patriotic Pakistanis might give kharat, but their kharaat would end up in the personal account of Prime Minister (as before).

Re: John mcCain: Pakistan was a failed state in 1999!

^ :rotfl:

Re: John mcCain: Pakistan was a failed state in 1999!

Pakistan is a failed state before Musharraf and after Musharraf

During Musharraf's reign, Pakistan had a growing economy

Now many Pakistanis are wishing that Musharraf comes back

Is that something you saw on Fox news too? Also, how do you explain the economy performing poorly during the latter part of Musharraf's reign. Also, how do you explain Musharraf blaming his own (previous) govt for the poor economy, and asking his leut. shortcut parachute aziz to come back and explain his karnamayz?

You should know that propaganda and lies only work with idiots and ignorant, who accept whatever they are told. Now what you think, all on this forum are ignorant and idiots? :) I am putting down few numbers and facts that can be checked. So, anyone who is not ignorant and idiot, they can check themselves and think. Government of crooks came into power in first week of April. Ishaq Dar TV show presentation showing his incompetency, idiocy, and ignorance happened in second week of April that started crash of Stock exchange as well as rupee.

Stock exchange index in Pakistan was at its peak (highest ever) on 22 April 2008, when KSE was over 15600.

Pakistani rupee started devaluing in big way after Ishaq TV presentation in mid April. Until then, $ was below Rs 63.

Pakistan real GDP growth for the year July 2007- June 2008 was 6 percent, quite reasonable.

Pakistan dollar per capita income increased 17.2 percent, from $926 in 2007 to $1085 in 2008.

Pakistan rupee GNP (current value) increased 20.5 percent from Rs 8880 billion to Rs 10710 billion.

Pakistan $ reserve when crooks took over in April 2008 was around $12.5 billion.

Pakistan export, Pakistan tax collection, Pakistan remittances, all of them rose and FDI was also quite good during Fiscal year 2007-2008.

[Anyone can check whatever I wrote using various sources].

Now, why a person should go for propaganda and lies and become ignorant? It is for people themselves to take the propaganda and lies or be intelligent and check the figures themselves. :)

If anyone thinks that figures are lies than they should know that most of the above figures except for GDP growth are concurrent and not related to government. Even figures of GDP growth is not in the hands of government but various departments combined efforts and plays pivotal role in planning and forecasting following year budget. Anyhow, GDP I quoted came out in July 2008 and all these figures are those that present government not only accepts but made next year budget and all their forecasts on these figures. So, whenever anyone from media or present government lies, trying to portray that performance of Pakistan economy during last 9 years was bad (1999-2008), they lie only for consumptions of fools, ignorant and idiots.

Re: John mcCain: Pakistan was a failed state in 1999!

^ And yet in all those years Pakistan was termed as a failed state by various media outlets and last year when Pakistan was facing all sorts of economic problems, they were termed as ‘global problems’ :hehe:. Its about time you stop parroting those garbage numbers, as they mean nothing. Pakistan’s economy was never strong, admit it. Now in addition to a weak economy we have to deal with a whole new front, i.e. the law and order problem with suicide bombings on a daily basis, thanks to Mush’s reign of terror.

Also Saleem, please dont expect anyone here to believe your numbers, after all how can we forget your 175 seat PML[Q] prediction :rotfl: That just shows you’ll say anything to defend the Mush/MQM/Q nexus.

And yes lastly, we all know how much Mush was ‘rewarded’ for these garbage/paper economic numbers in February 2008 by the people of Pakistan.

Bhai, I am in no position to tabulate those financial figures, neither are You, Liar Ishaq Daar, Crook Nawaz Ganja, duffer Ahsan Iqbal, thug politicians or anyone of those media thugs who write in Newspapers to misguide innocent Pakistan. If anyone, including me or you, gives figures from their hat then it would be only for fools, ignorant and idiots. :smiley:

I am not politician so I do not look for fools, ignorant and idiots to believe me without questioning. I have no habit or intention to misguide people by giving my own fabricated figures full of assumptions. That is why I invited everyone to find themselves the correctness of what I wrote before accepting it. :slight_smile:

None of the figures I quoted are fabrication of my mind. The figures are from ‘Dawn Newspapers’ who publishes KSE index and exchange rate daily and concurrently. The figures are from Pakistan state bank site who regularly publishes figures with records of past figures, regarding tax collection, reserves, debt, interest rates, balance of payments, etc. The figures are from Pakistan Statistical department who every year publishes Pakistan GDP figures, Per Capita income figures, growth rate figures, etc … and the figures I quoted from Pakistan Statistical department regarding Pakistan financial year 2007-2008, are not figures when last government was in power but were published in August 2008.

Now it is up to people to believe me, you, crooks in media and politics without questioning so that they could become fools, ignorant and idiots … Or be intelligent and believe figures published daily in Dawn Newspapers (or for that matter, in any newspapers), State Bank of Pakistan figures, Pakistan Statistical department figures, etc.

Probably those Pakistanis who were supporting him even on Nov 3, 2007.