Jinnah's Pakistan?

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?


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You have raised some valid points, which do require detailed answers/comments, I would try to compile and post brief comments on it tomorrow.

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

You love to twist words, don't you? That the Quran is unchanged is an integral part of the Muslim faith. That doesn't, however, apply to the Arabic language. If you remember, we were talking about translation of the Quran. You said:

[QUOTE]
Somebody have done the translation and have did it as what he have understood at given time
[/QUOTE]

Therefore, a translation done today would be completely valid for interpretation purposes.

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

I suggest you Google things like "Shariah in Pakistan", "Secularism is wrong", "Kuffar trying to suppress Pakistani ideology" etc etc so that you can contribute something more meaningful to the discussion.

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Yaar, how good was Jinnahs Urdu? His Urdu was as good as any foreign NRP, yet he bcame the founder of Pakistan. No one questions him...

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Here is where we differ perhaps.. You believe its possible despite the difficulty. Im convinced it a futile endeavor and will never produce a state that could satisfactorily be called an Islamic state.

I do however believe that can we come closer to being Islamic, without being a declared Islamic country outright. Many laws among non Muslim secular nations, seems far more Islamic in nature then any we have in any of the so called Islamic states.

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Exactly! Where there is no justice, there is no Islam.

[QUOTE]
The nations that lived before you were destroyed by God because they punished the common man for their offenses and let their dignitaries go unpunished for their crimes; I swear by Him Who holds my life in His hand that even if Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad, had committed this crime, I would have amputated her hand."
[/QUOTE]

Going by this, Europe and the US are more Islamic than Saudi Arabia (which is a stain on the name of Islam) or any other so-called "Islamic Nation"

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

I doubt that, Jinnah spent his childhood and teens in subcontinent and was only in London for higher education, yes he spoke English well, but that doesn't mean he didn't speak Urdu....BTW the same Jinnah categorically said that URDU would be national language of Pakistan... and as a matter of fact, if anyone thinks that he can discuss history of Subcontinent or creation of Pakistan without knowing URDU or HINDI, then...

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

There you answer it, the country for muslims, means ruled by the scripture of Muslims? or does that mean, the country of Muslims should be governed by the rule of Christianity or Judaism or Budhism or so-called secularism???

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Peace Med911

I agree again ... this is fundamentally the difference between our positions.

However, I believe if we create by secular means a society which is philanthropic/charitable (gain of wealth in order to employ and redistribute) in it's ethos rather than capitalistic (i.e. selfish gain) ... we can get the beginning of a good, just nation together. I have major issues with the global financial system at the moment and see that as the noose that enslaves all countries.

However, you said: "I do however believe that can we come closer to being Islamic, without being a declared Islamic country outright" ... seems to show me that you are missing my point entirely.

I am not interested in "naming Pakistan an Islamic state" it is already named an Islamic state as are many other countries in the world ... Rather your words seem to suggest that you want Pakistan to be more of an Islamic state in the way it operates.

In the attempt to avoid psuedo-Islam we need to understand what it means to create an Islamic state ... since you are basically saying a "true secular country" is "more Islamic" than "any" outright attempt to make an Islamic state. My argument is that so far recent attempts to make "Islamic states" i.e. any country formed in the "name" of Islam after mid-1800s has been of a certain zealous approach which lacks wisdom. My idea of formation is "gradual" and "subtle" and I believe Shari'ah accomodates gradualism and review to certain extents. My idea is based on orientation - i.e. we face in a direction that "improves" humanity in our moral outlook and one that is balanced with improvements to lifestyle. Consumeristic capitalism drives improvements in lifestyle without looking at moral barriers to achieve that end. It may seem that many western countries share Islamic values - because they are fair with their people, but if the same societies are allowing that praise to be directed at man and encourage godlessness and infalting of egos and desires then I feel all of the positives are in vain.

I, like you want a country that values life and wants to make people happy and live in comfort above and beyond merely being safe. However I want that country to direct all acknowledgement of that condition towards God. In terms of punishment/sentencing we need to look at the various hadith regarding for example stoning to death ... in a very different way.

Consider zina:

An Islamic state that makes Allah (SWT) so loved and being pure and cleansed so desirable then the following will happen:

a) People will avoid sin
b) Those who sin will feel guilty
c) Those who feel guilty will repent
d) Those who repent will want to be cleansed
e) Those who want to be cleansed will insist on full (hadd) sentencing be inflicted on them in this life in order to be spotless in the Hereafter ...

Then on the other hand we need a state that will not punish/sentence people quickly but shy away from it ... and only when certain conditions are clearly met - i.e. when a person insists on being sentenced after admiting fault several times ... then the sentence is given begrudgingly ...

There have been societies in the past under Islamic rule (which demonstrates that they are possible) where people take each other to court not because someone else has taken from them, but rather because the other party has not taken enough to value a given agreement ... they will insist that no overpayment is made to them (and they do this out of fear of accounting for that wealth that does not belong to them) and take offense if gestures of overpayment are made to them ... This is the Islamic state I want .. It needs to be driven by the condition of the individual hearts to create a society that drives goodness from it's elite ... I do not agree with zealous states that try to enforce obedience in to people. (That is the common perception of Islamic state, but it is not mine and the hadith seem to support my view).

I believe this condition can only enter the hearts of people through:

a) Good leadership who give people room to be living without fear of them
b) That leadership instill values of ethics in to society by education and media encouragement
c) That people learn to favour competing for nobility over competing for wealth
d) That various organisation CEOs try hard to earn wealth for the motive of giving more in charity

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

[quote]

a) People will avoid sin
b) Those who sin will feel guilty
c) Those who feel guilty will repent
d) Those who repent will want to be cleansed
e) Those who want to be cleansed will insist on full (hadd) sentencing be inflicted on them in this life in order to be spotless in the Hereafter ...
[/quote]

^^^

This theoretical Utopia is not possible in this sinful world ever.. and I know deep inside your heart you also know this, if you haven't lost touch with the real world already..!!!

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

It has worked in the past hence the narrative of hadith ... and it will work in the future ... :)

Mahdi will be so fair that he will have wealth to distribute and ask who needs more and none shall step forward and all shall say "we have enough" ...

This sucker called psyah believes in the truth of scripture - what can I say ... theoretical it is not ... utopia it may seem ... but if we fail to strive for it in order to settle for something less which is still fairly good ... we will end up serving our own ills and selfish desires.

I believe Allah (SWT) will not judge us on our achievements ... but on our efforts and intentions ... The psyche that says something is impossible therefore don't do it - is one that gives greater importance to achievement than effort ... we will miss a trick if we do that ... It is all about orientation ... That is a wisdom in facing the Ka'bah to pray - we orientate to it ... demonstrating where our intentions lie and efforts belong ... despite knowing that our efforts and intentions may never manifest in to achievements - in this life that is ... but if they do then that would be out of the Mercy of Allah (SWT).

For sure when a true Islamic state is described you dismiss it as Utopia, you will bring the psuedo-Islamic examples to justify going against Shari'ah and cling to secular values that serve limited ends to this life only ...

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Bhai come to Pakistan sometime.. I'll take you to a large Dar ul Uloom in the center of Faisalabad.. You can find hundreds of bearded Klashinkov bearing gangsters repenting their sins 24/7.. You can pay them to get a shop evacuated, or to get payment from a defaulter. Obviously they charge you for their services.. all in the name of Allah. Recently an industrialist was kidnapped and the negotiators wanted him to pay extra money in the name of Allah.. they tried to explain the industrialist that money paid as ransom will all be spent in the name of Allah for the cause of Allah.. (as if Allah is in desperate need of money..!!!)

I can assure you all these people pray towards Ka'bah five times a day without fail..

And these are not pseudo examples.. these are real life stories my friend. What you have suggested that criminals would like to be prosecuted according to sharia to avoid punishment in hereafter is a pseudo imagination..!!!

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Peace yazdi

Criminal mindsets have been allowed to fester as a result of pseudo-Islamic values being allowed to take root ... You are using "psuedo" to mean something else ... The fact that you call them criminals and at the same time say they are doing what they do for the cause of Allah (SWT) means they are adherents of pseudo-Islam ... by orientation I meant "desire good" - and that it was symbolised in the facing of the ka'bah ... Not the other way round ... i.e. it is not noble to face the ka'bah and then go off and do evil.

I find it intruiging that you have no hesitation to allow such people to claim they represent Islam and forsake it by claiming that you want something other than Islam to be the state that you live in ... in the establishment of a proper Shari'ah the first thing that will be done will be to use the media to discredit their interpretation of Islam and win over the minds towards a healthier version ... Remember I said - I believe in gradualism. We shouldn't be impatient.

To add more to what I said earlier ... if people are not pious enough to desire punishment then at least they will feel guilty and avoid repeating the sin ... as no one will glamorise sin due to the orientation of the society being towards good, slander and character assasination used by current media outlets will become outlawed and any body trying to blame or slander without evidence or in controlled arenas such as in the courts, will be subject to prosecution. In a society where the general populous are orientated towards good ideals then it won't stop people taking advantage at first, but it will have a gradual homeopathic cleansing effect of the society.

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

First of all psyah bhai I do not believe in Mahdi/Messiah/personality worship etc etc. You know my stance against literal religionist. I believe in systems, rules, institutions, laws and their implementation, tolerance, coexistence and above all the ability of a society to use collective wisdom peacefully and for the larger benefit of the society..

Now coming to your above post.. If you remember I sent you a pm sometime ago with a link where a cleric was so conveniently slapping kafir fatwa on somebody for a difference of opinon.. and this was no ordinary cleric. He is the Amir of the largest political religious party.

Once we let this pandora box of sharia open.. then we have all sort of sole champions of ideology and morality with guns. Your kind at best can post your sharia in forums like these.. these guys are ready to kill or die for their cause. It doesn't take much intelligence to figure out whose sharia will be accepted.

It's easier for you to chant sharia from the safe havens of UK.. we live in a constant fear from these self proclaimed champions of ideology and morality. It's a serious issue in Pakistan.. people get killed for a difference of opinion.

As I said.. you have lost touch with reality specially in Pakistan.. and you live in your idealistic gagaland of sharia. Try preaching this sharia to one of the armed 175 types of militant gangsters operating in the name of sharia. I know you have fantastic reasoning skills.. I challenge you to convert only one persons from what you call criminality to your sharia.. I am sure once you are in their company in one of their dens, you would agree 100% with their sharia.. at least I would to save my neck from getting chopped..

BTW this industrialist friend of mine who was kidnapped in the name of Allah also used to pray 5 times bajmaat facing Holy Ka'aba alongwith his abductors as long as he stayed in their custody.

You said in your earlier post that Allah will judge you for your effort and not the results. The issue is not which corner of jannat you will occupy in the hereafter. The issue is to have a practical, doable, realistic system for our troubled society in this mortal world where we can provide some social justice to the people. At least where some enabling environment can be created where people can go along with their business of life. Where some essential choices can be provided to people in a tolerant environment. Where people can coexist without chopping each other's head.

A secular model where religion is separated from state may be UnIslamic as per your understanding (not mine), but is the only option available to us for this environment of coexistence..

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

**The coming of Mahdi – Is a Sign of the Day of Judgement


The Mahdi, one of my children, comes into being, by the blessing of Allah, upon the approach of the Day of Judgment and the weakening of the hearts of the faithful because of death, hunger, and the disappearance of the sunnah, and the emergence of innovations and the loss of means by which to enjoin the right and forbidding the wrong. His justice and prosperity will ease the hearts of the faithful, and friendship and love will settle between the non-Arab and Arab nations. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi `Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman, p. 66)
*
Also people have suggested that the loss of hope of the coming of Mahdi – is itself a sign that he is imminent.

**The fallacy in the claim that religion cannot provide or does not possess the elements of a workable society

**All of these elements are present in the concept that I am trying to portray … systems, rules, institutions, laws and their implementation, tolerance, coexistence and above all the ability of a society to use collective wisdom peacefully and for the larger benefit of the society

By saying no to my version you are saying that:

  • God does not deserve praise for our successes
  • The Way of God is incapable of providing these solutions

However with the added extra – to be more efficient these aspects are gleaned from Islamic sources and all successes in those endeavours are attributed to God.

**Use of the morally bankrupt and worst examples of Muslims to justify being anti-religionist

**I said earlier that ranked person of religious aught to remain aloof of politics to remain untouched by persuasions and unhealthy influences. Yet you bring the example of that cleric who does the complete opposite of who I consider high-ranking.

A myopic view of the future used to justify inaction and returning to the same failed methods to succeed.

You have a sense that Shari’ah is a pandoras box, yet it is not pandoras box – it is all in your head … You have been battling with those supporters of Shari’ah who themselves are focussed on the outward just like you see the outward similarity between me and them … however the people who I follow have very different outlooks. You can’t use the inadequacies of one to justify not giving light to the other. It is almost as if you are afraid that we could be right.

In turn - failure to see other than in a binary way towards governance.

To me you and those pseudo-Islamists are similar – i.e. you are more concerned with the “name” and less concerned with the “nature” – we focus on the inward and you both are concerned with the outward. Likewise they are violently active and they will see us two as the same they will label us as pacifists and people wasting time in discussions. Likewise you see me and those criminals the same because we profess to Shari’ah and are against secularism … Whether you realise it or not the people who I follow stand in the middle … because we (you and I) share in our values of principles and we have a similar understanding of what makes a just society but at the same time I share some of my values with those pseudo-Islamists that Allah (SWT) should be involved in our decisions and Praised accordingly and that moral fibre stems from His Deen. If anything we are the bond that will be bridge us but we have never been given any ground and dismissed as a Pandoras Box.

The false assumption that my kind are not ready to die for our cause

The way that I follow teaches me to be patient without resorting to mindlessness … we are not pacifists and we don’t fear for our lives when it comes to achieving justice. We will not kill but we will not allow ourselves to be killed and we will protect the innocent and if we get harmed or killed in the process then we did so for the sake of Allah (SWT) … We are taught not to harbour hatred and to be loving and compassionate …

The fallacy of diminishing the importance of the power of communication and information delivery

Sitting in the comfort of my home and calling for Shari’ah is with intent because the age we live in is all about the communication of ideas. These are the front lines. Those people who are popularly called “Armchair jihadis” are not who I follow. They call for all out war yet themselves sit in the comfort of their homes … I am surprised that you seem to be painting me with the same brush. My appeals in this forum are to provide you with a hope that is there another option other than you and them …

**The fallacy of difference of opinion in Pakistan is harmful and therefore shouldn’t be done

**I would like to call upon your opinion … it is quite clear that you have a different opinion from the pseudo-Islamists yet you feel it okay to speak about your secularism without fear … so then why try to stop me by using the difference of opinion argument? To say it again … the assertion that people get killed for a difference of opinion in Pakistan yet you yourself have no problem harbouring a difference of opinion to the religionists, so why should that concern me as well?

Besides the logic of the arguments suggests that if people call for Shari’ah like I am then those people will get killed … in which case it sounds as though you are making a threat if I lived in Pakistan then your kind would want to kill me for calling for Shari’ah … Is that true?

**The fallacy of making the version of Shari’ah that I profess to as idealistic when it has never been tried in the modern days with any serious effort

**Give it a chance that is all I say … Let’s become what we were meant to be.

The ludicrous idea that I need to be obliged to try and convince the 175 types of gangsters of my version of Shari’ah, when the same person will never to try to convince the same that Shari’ah is not required

My scholars teach me balance. Bravery and Recklessness are not the same things. If these people are so knuckleheaded as you say then they will do the same with you if you tried to convince them of secularism … But I guarantee they will take your head off quicker than mine … because at least I resemble them in the outward form and praise Who the praise.

To me trying to convince a criminal to accept my version of Shari’ah is probably as futile as convincing you of my version of Shari’ah … but I have a greater expectation from you to understand … so understand.

I mean otherwise then what is the difference between those criminals and you? Those people are knuckleheads and they follow orders however the people here are supposed to be free thinkers surely? My hope is the people who they take orders from see reason. Or society shows them that there is a better position. I believe they are a reaction to “godlessness” and when they see “religious” people doing “good” I trust they will follow. Although I was never that zealous and violently inclined, I note, that is how I came to my current understanding.

The strawman argument that conversion to my version will be impossible if I was in their dens

I would not be in their dens …

The industrialist friend story to rally an argument of authenticity

I’m sorry for your industrialist friend, but it was not me who made him pray five times a day.

**The fallacy in the argument that we need a practical doable model … as refutation of the model that I presented

**The model I presented was misunderstood as a utopia that could not be reached … I answered this concern by saying that it is indeed a workable model that we can work towards … orientate towards it. By so doing then even if a person does a crime the state will not be heavy handed to them if that crime remains hidden. This model is utopian only in it’s endeavours however due to it’s orientation it will focus on striving to better itself for selfless ends … the consumerist capitalistic societies do not teach charity but encourage selfishness and hence affray and discord result … jealousy and criminal activity become rife. In a society where “to have” is not seen as the best, but “to give” is seen as the best then not only will there be healthy tiers in society but the criminal activity will be minimised.

**Annuit Coeptis – Novus Ordo Seclorum

**We are living in confusing times … but a method to work out what is right is often to look at what is wrong … And to me “Secularism” is the agent of the “Dajjalic System”

Narrated Anas (radiAllahu anhu), The Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,

"No prophet was sent but that he warned his followers against the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). Beware! He is blind in one eye, and your Lord is not so, and there will be written between his (Ad-Dajjal's) eyes (the word) Kafir (i.e. disbeliever)."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, 9.245 - This Hadith is also quoted by Abu Hurairah and Ibn 'Abbas

Narrated Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman (radiAllahu anhu) that “Then the Anti-Christ (Dajjal) will come forth accompanied by a river and fire. He who falls into his fire will certainly receive his reward, and have his load taken off him, but he who falls into his river will have his load retained and his reward taken off him.” I then asked: “What will come next?” He said: “The Last Hour will come.”

Sunan of Abu Dawud #4232

Narrated by Hudhaifah (radiAllahu anhu) The Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said about Ad-Dajjal that he would have water and fire with him: (what would seem to be) fire, would be cold water and (what would seem to be) water, would be fire.
[Sahih Al-Bukhari, 9.244]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Stop living in the past. Live in the now. Pakistan exists. It will survive. Focus on how to fix stuff that is broken. Not one what the freaking reasons were 60 odd years ago.

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

^^^

Please be my guest.. have a debate first with these 175 types of shariah seekers to come to a consensus about which sharia is correct before presenting it to supporters of secular model. Once you have convinced them and have a unanimous model for sharia as you said you have a greater hope on me to understand.. I will try my best to understand your sharia..

I have no objection as far as you are concerned to apply your sharia on yourself. I have nothing against these 175 types as long as they keep their versions of sharia to themselves. I just don't want these 176 types including your type to be implemented on me. I want my liberties.. and just want to coexist while fully respecting your liberties. I do not want my government to adopt one of these 176 kinds of sharia.. and impose them on all the rest of the people. I just want this sharia business out of the act of state governance while giving essential liberties to everyone..

Other than that I don't want to listen who your cleric is, if your cleric is better than the one in the video.. I am not interested in anyone's religious sermons.. In fact I am not interested in clerics or Mahdis.. I just want them to stay in their respective mosques and stay out of the governance...

Re: Jinnah’s Pakistan?

Somehow when I started my thread, I was looking forward to a debate of the kind of Pakistan we could have and not dwell on to the possible intentions Jinnah had when he made this immense effort for the existence of our country.

But again the same debate over what Jinnah wanted rolled on and on. Ok we all seem to have disputed ideas about the Islamic or the Secular country Jinnah wanted. But can we do something about it? Possibly communicate with him and ask please Quaid we know you are in eternal peace now but please wake up for a while and solve this riddle for us. :halo:

So why not try fixing what’s going wrong now. Instead of focusing on the Ideology being wrong or our textbooks being completely biased and made in error why not do something worthwhile for our country so at least our next generations don’t question our motives or worse God forbid not read about the Republic of Pakistan that WAS.. (The mere thought makes me depressed!)

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Its because they are Jahils Enigmatic. They are argue over things that don't ****ing matter. Nobody cares what form of religious or secular government we have if they don't have food, shelter, social justice and a social welfare network. That comes first. Its Maslow's hierarchy of needs at its very basic.

Only people who are well fed, have money, have a home and a decent education have the luxury for such retarded discussions.

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Except for good education, most politicians & government officials are well fed, have money, and have the luxury to do whatever and direct access to Pakistan's treasure funds. But they are still failing..

Granted, this is a pointless discussion but we aren't the ones throwing Pakistan off cliff, it's them. It is what it is - just a discussion and last I checked that's what a public forum is used for - pointless, harmless discussions. :p

Don't kill the messenger..