Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
Lajwab sahib,
Can I ask you one simple question.
Who has created heavens and earth. And who has created all the laws of physics as we see today, such as law of inertia etc.
Ofcourse, Allah has created everything, including all laws of science as we see, and the ones that are to be discoveredin later ages. But how can you call a creator 'Wise', if he has to go outside of his own established laws to do something that he has already planned to do from the beginning.
Was'nt it in Allah's planning that Jesus would be born without a father? If it was, then, can't Allah through His own wisdom, make it a possibility that a child can be born from a female without the participation of male? And if it was in Allah's design, then it only exalts His status and wisdom that if we believe that it was done naturally.
Remember, I am not arguing that Allah cannot do something. But we have to remember all the attributes of Allah, and one of his attributes is that he is WISE. And it is not a wise move to break His own established laws to fulfill something that He had already planned for.
Re: “Jesus in India” a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
Now, observe the bolded part and remember what I said about Ahmadis and confusion…
Jeevay sahib is saying, that since God made the laws of the universe and gave the humans intellect to decipher them, and now that the laws of science are in place, God is bound by those laws…
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
so just so I am sure I understand it, those saying Mary was a hermaphrodite, are they suggesting she somehow nauzubillah impregnated herself? i dont understand..
secondly, afaik, ahmedis do say that Quran is unchangeable and is the word of Allah, how does a scientific explanation explain this:
[quote]
She said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.’ He said: ‘So (it will be) for Allaah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!” and it is’”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:45-47]
[/quote]
and this:
“Verily, the likeness of ‘Eesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!’ — and he was”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:59]
The first verse explicitly talks about the creation of Isa though a word of Allah, and not through any act of Maryam, the second gives an analogy of Isa's creation through hazrat Adam's.
Re: “Jesus in India” a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
To clarify these verses:
Adam primarily stands for man, i.e., the sons of Adam generally. Jesus is thus declared to be like other mortals who have all been creeated from dust (40:68), and so there can be no Divinity about him. If however, the word “Adam” be taken to refer to the progenitor of the human race, then the verse would be taken to point to the resemblance between Jesus and Adam in being born without the agency of a male parent. In this case, the fact that Jesus had a mother would not affect the likeness which, as stated above, need not be complete in all respects.
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
Fine, I'll buy your argument to the extent that since the second verse is analogy based, the analogy can be taken to mean something else.
Its diverts the discussion to post audio links, if you feel the audio covers any important points, listen to it and post them here.
Could someone please address my other two questions:
[quote]
She said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.’ He said: ‘So (it will be) for Allaah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!” and it is’”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:45-47]
[/quote]
The verse explicitly talks about the creation of Isa though a word of Allah, and not through any act of Maryam.
and
those saying Mary was a hermaphrodite, are they suggesting she somehow nauzubillah impregnated herself?
Re: “Jesus in India” a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
Isn’t it through Allah’s will that everything happens. Forget about giving a birth to a child, my belief is that not an iota in this universe can move without Allah’s will. Your eyes can’t see without Allah’s will.
So my brother, she couldn’t have impregrante herself if Allah didn’t will so.
It seems very funny though, that you are not ready to believe that Allah can do something that is even proved through science today.
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
no, where the agency is human, the human is instructed to do a particular action. For example, "iqra", or parho. It could be argued that Allah willed for Prophet Muhammad to read instead of instructing him to read (and then granting him the ability to read).
The verse clearly shows the cause and effect of Allah's will, and nowhere is any human agency indicated.
and you're explicitly saying that when Maryam asked how she could be pregnant, Allah said I can bring about what I wish I only have to say it, then told her to have some kind of intercourse with herself?
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
ravage, if you read up on hermaphrodite, you will find out that the mammals don't impregnate themselves by doing something or having any kind of intercourse. The male sperm is present along side the female and at some point in time they combine to create a live embryo (or that’s how I have understood my readings), without the knowledge of the hermaphrodite herself.
Again, this is not to say what exactly happened in case of Hazrat Maryam (as).
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
^in that case, there is no point in the discussion. there is no way to establish the precise mechanism (whether natural or divine) whereby Allah's will was actualized, and the most scientific answer would be "I dont know".
There isnt always a scientific explanation for miracles. The splitting of the nile to allow passage to Moses, the conversion of his staff into a serpent that swallowed up all other serpents etc. You may try to approach them scientifically, but scientifically that would be a conjecture.
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
^ yes, I refuse to believe that Jesus is sitting up in the heavens, waiting to come back. All prophets were and are human. They live and die as humans.
Also, just because one follows the masses, doesn't mean its right. Religion is not about blindly believing. Religion is only acceptable when there is logic and rationale involved.
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
I am not advocating the blind belief of anything. But if you blindly believe in something then you have no standing to refuse similar blind belief of others in something similar. If a Muslim prophet can perform miracles, why can't a Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Sikh, Bhuddhist prophet?
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
As Lajo said, Ahmadi's are confused people and they do not even know their own religion. I swear man, may be it is just me but I have seen it not only here on GS but every Ahamadi I have met with, has this same exact problem i.e. They are ALWAYS trying to justify their religion with some real stupid examples. They would do ANY thing to justify their argument even if they have to go after Allah. Just like Ahamdjee, when Lajo confronted him, he very politely twisted his words. That is not just one example but I have seen it MANY times. Whenever an Ahamadi gives explanation about their religion and when they are confronted with solid proofs, they start out saying this ' Well this is not what I meant... and then another pile of lies comes out of them. Pathetic and Sad.
Re: "Jesus in India" a symposium @ Harvard Divinity School
Different groups and sects have different beliefs and opinions. We have already had numerous discussions over Ahmadis and their beliefs. There's really no need to indulge in it any further.
