I find it so unbelievabily shocking to see how Muslim shia’s and sunni’s abuse each other…I knew of the bitterness between the 2 but what I have read has digusted me…
And don’t any of you know that calling a muslim ( be it shia sunni or of any other Islamic sector ) a non muslim or comparing them with other non muslims is GUNNAH in itself…?
What these morons are indulging in is called 'farz' or duty i.e. it is their duty to expose those perceived as 'kafir' and to harass them .....kill them until they accept 'their Islam'.
Now, who told them that they are the true muslim -- nobody, they just usurped it for themselves!
By the way 'kafir' to them is all non-Sunnis, and people of all other religions. It is a jehad for these morons to convert all these people to 'their Islam' by force if necessary. After all what good is a 'kafir', he/she will burn in hell anyway!
And, by the way the above is at the core of Fundamentalist Islam; No! I didn't make it up! I choose to call it Extremist Islam but then our champion Mr Xtreme says there is no such thing as "Extremist Islam."
Abdul
Please refrain from using abusive words to accuse people/religions/cultures. it is not acceptable in this forum. If you wish to make a point, just do so without using any abusive or profane words.
anyway you need to do some research lalaji, according to shia books sunnis are worse than kafirs.
Memsahib,
I tried to kill this topic once before b/c I agree it is counter-productive to argue with shias/sunnis when we have bigger problems but it is always the shias who start the mudslinging. That is b/c it is their mission to create fitnah and destroy islam from within (like the Qadianis). Not all Shias believe in anti-sunni activism as there are over 30 different sects but some of the more loopy ones are hell bent on trouble. If you ignore posts like Peshawar Nights you only get one side of the story.
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So, Mr Moderator - I am using abusive word like "kafir" which they use for those that do not subscribe to their -extremist teachings.
To them - I am a kafir; but, I have already stated rather very categorically that coming from these morons (extremist muslims) is considered an honour.
Here's what's at the heart of Fundamentalist / Extremist Islam; They the extremist may chose to change interpretations to ADJUST to changing times; but, nay!
Qur'an (9:5) "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, capture and besiege them and prepare for them every kind of ambush."
Qur'an (9:123) "Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you."
Qur'an (47:4) "When ye meet the Unbelievers in Jihad smite at their necks. At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”
All the extremist muslim and their sympathizers protect their bloodletting as 'jehad' ordained by Allah; a few of their favourite quotes are quoted above. Good Luck!
Qur'an (9:5) "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, capture and besiege them and prepare for them every kind of ambush."
If that was true then there wouldn't be any unbelievers alive in muslim lands would there? What would be the need for jizyah (kafir tax) if we were supposed to kill them all? You have taken that ayah out of context and twisted the words to make it sound like something else.
Qur'an (47:4) "When ye meet the Unbelievers in Jihad smite at their necks. At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”
Is America reading the Qur~an? They smited more than necks (Gulf war turkey shoot) Bound a bond (sanctions) and the war laid down it's burdens (American building firms won most of the contracts to rebuild kuwait which their smart bombs had demolished in the first place).
These verse aren't meant for your run-of-the-mill kafir (and you have ceratinly spiced them up a bit) they are meant for back-stabbing weasel type of kafirs who will take advantage of any generosity shown to them as happened frequently when Jewish tribes kept switching sides and breaking peace treaties with the muslims.
As in any society those who deliberately causing mischief are dealt with, and those who live in peace are left in peace.
your buddy
Mr Xtreme
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Another threat in the litany of threats -- Mr Moderator, you are taking note of that, aren't you; after you, you did comment on my use of the word 'kafir'.
I stand by what I said: The extremist Islam uses terror, using quotes from Quran, against non-believers which according to them are all non-sunnis, christians, jews, hindus, etc. According to their interpretation: people like Mother Teresa, Jimmy Carter, Pope Paul, Gandhi, etc would burn in hell and/or are in hell because they do not/did not subscribe to their beliefs.
The scholars of the thousands of madrasas (religious schools) are indoctrinated endlessly that struggle against 'non-believers' is jehad as commanded by Quran and Jannat(heaven) will go only to those that follow their beliefs. (Must be smoking something).
As I indicated before that I prefer calling it Extremist Islam but Mr. Xtreme here believes that there is no such thing in Islam; so, call it fundamentalist Islam.
you stand by what you said? but you haven't answered any of my questions which absolutely negate everything you said.
Let me refresh your memory
1) If it were true that all unbelievers were meant to be killed then why would there be jizyah?
2) Do you approve of turkey shoots?
You say:
[quote]
According to their interpretation: people like Mother Teresa, Jimmy Carter, Pope Paul, Gandhi, etc would burn in hell and/or are in hell because they do not/did not subscribe to their beliefs.
[/quote]
There are many different interpretations and many different schools of thought. Scholars can only give their opinion. Nobody decides the fate of anyone except Allah.
Also you will find similar verdicts in Shia books and Ahmadi books about sunnis as well as kafirs. Why are you obsessed with Sunnis?
What is fundamentalist islam? Does it mean believing in the fundamentals of islam?
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Mr. Ad-bul!!!!!!!! as your username is !!!!
the first Ayat that you put is totally wrong!!! first of all go and study it!!!! you just wrote a piece of the whole aya't!!!!!
anyway the aya't complete translation for the first one is as:
(9:5)
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
*********
(9:123)
123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
(47:4)
4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost
Many of the Quranic Ayaat's are revealled for a particular situation:
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hallian
Could you care to explain those ayats in context of those who choose not to follow 'your Islam' and then reconcile the interpretations with what the Taleban, Sipah-e- Sabah, Harakatul Muj..., JUI, GIA, etc. stand and preach.
Xtreme: You speak about various interpretations in Islam; sure there are! But the fact is, your sunni ulemas have condemned every other sects, other than their own, as 'kafir.'
I am not hung-up on sunnis, since they are the majority - they s/b held accountable for all the wrongs committed by extremist Islam.
Adbul
I was indeed refering to your use of the word "morons". if you notice I have not prevented people from using the word "kafir" unless it is used in an abusive manner.
as for your other line:
Another threat in the litany of threats -- Mr Moderator, you are taking note of that, aren't you; after you, you did comment on my use of the word 'kafir'.
I am not sure I understand what you mean. Could you please clarify.
You see how Mr. Xtreme had to mention Ahmadis for no reason. To him, all religious discussions are incomplete without dragging Ahmadis in. He provokes others for no reason. Not that I am an Ahmadi, but I do have respect for that SECT of ISLAM.
I agree with your post that no one has any right to tell who is right and who is not, even if the Quran validates it. Because Quran only applies to Muslims, and not to the rest of the world. Those who are so vocal and quote Quran every chance they can get have never seen a copy of it in their entire life, otherwise they wouldn’t be insulting other faiths, because that’s not what Quran tells Muslims to do.
That will be asking too much because these same extremists don’t even know the right manners to address others. You be the judge.
Mr. Fraudia,
I am not sure I follow your chain of thought in the statement:
"I am from a sunni family..and I checked and no one has beaten up any person fron any other sect let alone kill anyone. Did we miss out???"
Your reasoning for dragging Ahmadis in this debate is as follows:
“>>>…Shia and Ahmadis have done the same also for Sunnis….<<<”
Would you like to see some Bengali come and massacre 3 million Punjabis? Since Pakistani butchered roughly 3 million Bengalis.
It is not a way to live your life. If you want everyone to show respect to you, show some to them as well. Ahmadis and Shias have never initiated any hate campaign against anyone. But they are getting pretty tired of being the victims. One day they will shove their “education” into the “backsides” of those who teach hate. The only way to counter hate is through education.
The way you address Adbul, is that a Sunni way of addressing people, or just your own little mind can't see straight.
what I meant to say was that I come from a sunni family...a rather large family. Not only have we never had issues with any other sect, we have people married to shias, ismailis etc etc.
I just get a bit irritated when anyone generalizes...whether its for a country, religion or sect.
I say if you are going to make an accusation at least make sure others whom you are absolving of blame are not guilty of the same thing - in this case initiating hostilities to begin with. So your Bengali/Punjabi soiler isn't really relevant.
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Mr. Fraudia,
I guess you are right - there are well-meaning sunni muslims and in that case I was generalizing and for that I am indeed sorry for the hurt caused.
But the fact remains that large scale violations are being committed by sunni militias against minorities in Pakistan alone; these militias wouldn't exist if the sunni religious leaders so desired. They are allowed to exist because they serve the purpose of keeping the minorities in their place i.e. terrorized.
The shia muslims have their own militias and their actions are mostly retaliatory and in self-defense. Being a minority, the shias would be foolish to brazenly challenge the majority. They would also be foolish to assume that they are angels. They just have to look at Iran, Lebannon to remember what they did/do to the minorities there.
I tend to focus on the majority, because the majority, in every society, are entrusted with responsibilities to ensure that the rights & safety of their minorities are safeguarded. If they fail, then the majority as a whole must be held accountable.
The report card for the sunni muslims in this case and in my opinion reads C - minus. It is not a failing grade but then it says that more needs to be done and that they must try harder to heal the hurt & suspicion. The initiatives for the healing process, again, must come from the majority.
Our destiny lies in walking down the road together as brothers & sisters in Islam; either we do that, or, we're screwed.