Ohio,
We have already won.
You just dont know it.
Victory is ours.
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Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The only thing that the Palestinians have done right is launch a propaganda campaign. The Israeli's are pitiful at convincing the world, other than the US, that they have to stand up to the tactics of the Palestinians. I am in full agreement with the Palestinian *cause , but I think the Palestinian tactics are deplorable.
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I think its more a matter of common sense for the world at large to realize that whats happening against the Palestinians is a war crime, not self defense. As far as the US is concerned, its never was about convincing the US. US has interests in keeping Israel militarily loaded, hence it will go beyond its call of duty to ensure that. No 'convincing' of any sort is needed, specially since theres no logic behind it.
I agree with your second statement, and is part of what I have said in the past as well, and I'll repeat it here. The Palestinians are fighting for a legitimate cause in an illegitimate way. The Israelis are fighting for an illegitimate cause in an illegitimate way.
The recent attack in Tel aviv shows how much protection, if any, this wall has provided. Fact is, negotiations and a fair solution are the only things that will ensure lasting peace, such as that with Egypt and Jordan. In the absence of that, Israel may get to keep all the land it wants, but its citizens will always live in fear. Im not so sure thats what the isarelies want, specially those of the young generations.
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Don't open the champaign bottles too soon. There was a bomb blast in Tel Aviv today. Unfortunate, yes. Is Intifada over? You tell me. Building wall and neutralizing/insulting Arafat is not likely to solve the "problem". Give Palestinians a contigous land to live with freedom, East Jerusalem as their capital and either limited right of return or compensation to displaced Palestinians. Now we are talking.
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Israel was attacked repeatedly and in return Israel defended, won, and took land away from the attackers. Israel has a right to defense buffers and as long as those who want to destroy Israel are allowed to operate why would terror be rewarded by returning land? Did they really think the intifada would gain them anything, every time Israel is attacked those attacking lose something and once again we see this happening. The Palestinians have yet again been fooled by their militants as well as their leaders and once again victims.
All the talk of land grabs by Israel is nothing more than selective reading of history. There is also a countermanding historical reference of Israel giving up land in exchange for peace. Israel once "grabbed" the Sinai too. It built settlements there. When the opportunity for a lasting and true peace accord presented itself, the Sinai was given back and the settlements destroyed.
Why build the wall on the Palestinian side of the Green Line? It's pretty obvious. So you have land to give back in exchange for peace. If you build the wall on your side of the Green Line, you've got nothing to bargain away. People who suggest that Israel is grabbing the land to encroach upon legitimate Palestinian territory for the long term really don't have a good grasp of the history of the region.
I hope Krauthammer is right about the Intifada being over. From day one, the biggest losers in the Intifada have been the Palestinians. Every day that it has continued has just exascerbated the dimension of the loss. Compare life in the Palestinian controlled territories in the summer of 2000 with life there today and I defy anyone to show a single tangible improvement in their existence. The infrastructure and economy has been absolutely destroyed.
The Intifada is, has been and always will be a complete and utter failure. The Palestinians got in a few good punches and bloodied Israel up more than a little bit. But causing temporary pain to your opponent is certainly no measure of your own success. Israel's continued existence is no less certain today than it was four years ago. What is less certain is the time in which the Palestinians will get an autonomous homeland where they will be able to raise their children in peace and prosperity.
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The infrastructure and economy has been absolutely destroyed.
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I am sure it has nothing to do with Isarel controlling the ports and air ways. Nah, it cannot be.
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*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
I am sure it has nothing to do with Isarel controlling the ports and air ways. Nah, it cannot be.
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It has everything to do with the failure of the intifada as outlined by myvoice.
The objective of this article is to convince muslims that Palestinians are losers and have no right to retrieve even 23% of their orginal land (which had been stolen from them 55 years ago)
And with so many fools in this forum agreeing with Krauthammer's one sided article, it can be concluded that he is successful.
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*Originally posted by Confusedominator: *
The objective of this article is to convince muslims that Palestinians are losers and have no right to retrieve even 23% of their orginal land (which had been stolen from them 55 years ago)
And with so many fools in this forum agreeing with Krauthammer's one sided article, it can be concluded that he is successful.
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Confused: You appear to be confused. Whether the Palestinians are losers is unrelated to whether they have a right to retrieve land and, if so, how much. Charlie's last two sentences sum up his conclusions:
** "The only way for the Palestinians to achieve statehood and dignity, and to determine the contours of their own state, will be to negotiate a final peace based on genuine coexistence with a Jewish state.
It could be a year, five years or a generation until the Palestinians come to that realization. The pity is that so many, Arab and Israeli, will have had to die before then. **
Why you find that to be objectionable is beyond me.
Interesting facts on the success of the wall.
MR. SHARON, BUILD THIS WALL
July 13, 2004 – AS the Cold War waned, President Ronald Reagan went to Berlin and defiantly turned to the Soviet Union and said “Mr. Gorba chev, tear down this wall!” Now, we should turn toward Israel and say, despite the recent decision of the International Court, “Mr. Sharon, build this wall!”
The contrast with Berlin is striking: Nikita Khrushchev built the Berlin Wall to keep people in; Israel has built its fence to keep terrorists out.
The 480-mile security fence is being erected by Israel to keep out Palestinian terrorists who have killed almost 1,000 civilians since their campaign of suicide/homicide bombings began. To put the Israeli losses in perspective with their small population, that death toll is the equivalent of 50,000 dead in the United States — slightly fewer than we lost in the entire Vietnam War.
**The fence has succeeded brilliantly. No Israeli has been killed in a terrorist attack in an area where the fence has been completed in all of 2004 and terrorist attacks are down substantially from the rate of previous years. **
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/27200.htm
Og can u take this $hit some where else, of cours nytimes is going to write that to appease the huge jew population in NY. Besides shamelss peopel like you do not think there is anything wrong with destroying people’s home, taking their land, killing their children and glee that we captured their land and are building the wall in defiance of the world’s opinion…who cares we have US in our pocket. Did not Iraq commit the same mistake that he stood up against the world opinion. I ask you again Hypocrit OG, When are we going to destroy Israel? Untill, you can tell me that why is it OK for israel to capture land illegaly, destroy homes and kill people and get away with it…while others pay a terribel price (Iraq)..please refrain from posting gleeful crap about jews here.
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Charlie's last two sentences sum up his conclusions:
** "The only way for the Palestinians to achieve statehood and dignity, and to determine the contours of their own state, will be to negotiate a final peace based on genuine coexistence with a Jewish state. **
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Great point except they have no one to negotiate with. Mr Ariel Paranoid Sharon is unwilling to even start the negotiations until Arafat has died and all Palestinian groups stop their activities. The first one may be a matter of time but the second one is an open ended phenomenon, much like Global War on Poverty. It can't possibly happen.
So, there... checkmate! To any peace process. Unless ofcourse Sharon is voted out and a more reasonable person comes in to power in Israel.
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Originally posted by Faisal: *
Great point except they have no one to negotiate with. Mr Ariel *Paranoid Sharon is unwilling to even start the negotiations until Arafat has died and all Palestinian groups stop their activities. The first one may be a matter of time but the second one is an open ended phenomenon, much like Global War on Poverty. It can't possibly happen.
So, there... checkmate! To any peace process. Unless ofcourse Sharon is voted out and a more reasonable person comes in to power in Israel.
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I pretty much agree with you Faisal. Krautman probably would too. His last sentence talks about it possibly taking one year, five years or a generation. The failure of the peace process was not caused by Sharon. Rather, Sharon's election was caused by the failure of the peace process under Barak and the commencement of the Intifada. Sharon will be gone sometime too just like Arafat.
congragulations to israel...