Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

calling them “Sahih Sitta” is incorrect as they (the six famous hadith collections) contain non-sahih hadith also as stated by some of their authors

to answer your question…

the report graded authentic from Ibn Abbas (as his saying) is, according to Ibn Kathir, recorded by Ibn Abi Hatim (presumably in his Tafsir work?) and al Nasa’i without mentioning the name of his work… Ibn Kathir cites another similar report from Ibn Ishaq (presumably the Sirah author) citing a Christian who accepted Islam… i’m sure it’s also recorded elsewhere

the one about all the disciples taking on Jesus’s appearance is in Tafsir al Tabari with his isnad back to Wahb ibn Munabbih (a successor born towards the end of Uthman’s (r) khilafat, a trustworthy narrator known to be well versed in Israiliyat traditions so this could be one of them since he’s only expressing his own opinion, not ascribing anything to the Prophet saw)… in fact, Ibn Kathir suggests that this is al Tabari’s own preference out of all the various opinions, that the resemblance was put on all the disciples

… there’s likely to be further chains of transmission in Tafsir al Tabari from other authorities for the above views and probably other references in al Suyuti’s Dur al Manthur but i’m hard pressed for time

finally, Ibn Kathir mentions without reference the view that it was Judas who was crucified instead of Jesus

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Yes thats where the similarities with Islam stops, but similarities with Roman polytheist paganism begins…

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Thank you. So, basically it is in tafaseer of Quran by various authors.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

more like conjecture based on Judeo Christian sources.

that Jesus was 'replaced' by someone is not supported by the evidence in the Qur'an.. closest possible conclusion one can draw is that Jesus didn't die on the cross and Allah saved him the humiliation of death in that manner and raised his status.

this remains very plausible as it's not entirely strange for someone to survive a few hours on the cross and also reconciles with the reports of people 'sighting' Jesus after his supposed death on the cross.

P.S. Seminole what u believe in is Christianity as brought to you by Paul and the Church .. it doesn't have to be exactly what Jesus preached or tell u who he was.. so it may not totally reconcile with the accounts in the Qur'an.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Whomever one believes "brought" Jesus' teachings to the Bible, it is what Christians believe. Bottom line is that the Quranic and Biblical Jesus have little similarities.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Thankyou to the Ladies, sorry I didnt know that any of you were ladies.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

:rolleyes:

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Quranic Jesus is a prophet and human. Not more, not less.

Actually, the part >> **Son of God who died **is quite brutal for any system of beliefs …

Actually the notion, son of God is quite demeaning for God itself, and he died for sins of men ?? why ??

Its like saying a man died for the sins of robots, as man is the creater of robot. Why the hell he would care enough to die a humiliating death for the sake of his own creature ? :konfused:

It actually show the limited capacity of human mind, which can assume God in sense of creature. God >> must have human like charastristics >> so he has a son >> who died. unfortunately

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

I don't specifically adhere to those beliefs so I may not be the best to answer.

But my take on it is that God loves his creation so much that he sent a son (which is really nothing more than God's love in physical form), to experience the human condition and to show mankind how to live a perfect life.

You ask why God would care enough for us to die a humilating death. Maybe because he doesn't have the bravado or machismo that man (and particluar Arab and Arab-derived cultures) does and it wasn't humiliating, but a gift for his creation? Do you not think God could love man as much as we love him? I don't think the love is a one way street. We are his creations after all.

The spiritual goal is to be more like God, or in more practical terms, more like Jesus. (Not the direction he prayed or the manner he trimmed his pubic hair, but in a spiritual sense)

If we want to talk about a brutal belief system, there are plenty of Biblical and Quranic references to the cruelty of God. Lots of demeaning references to point out as well - like why would God be so vain to require to be worshipped 5 times a day?

And one could define 'limited capacity of the human mind' as following a literal translation of ancient scripture as if everything someone did 1400 years ago is just as relevant in today's society without any type of brain usage for interpretation.

So just becuse you disagree with a belief system doesn't make it any more bizarre than your belief system is to someone else. If only religion and spirituality were a known science as some people like to believe it is.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Why would an all powerful God need to create slaves to worship him? IMO, that’s a much more demeaning view of God.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

^ sorry semi, I didn't see that you said practically the same thing (but better)

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

You missed it :stuck_out_tongue:

Again ‘son’ is something very relative to human >> God is similar to humans …>>> which actually Limits the characteristics of GOD >>> Again shows the limited capacity of human mind

Question is ‘why associate characteristics of creature with creator’ ??

God can certainly love his creatures. But why we have to assume that he can only show great love iff he is similar to humans ? are humans his only creatures ? he can not show love to those creatures where there is no Father-son relationship ( i mean aliens ) ??

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

The few followers that jesus had were very disappointed to see that the person thru whom they were expecting so much died a humiliating death, to make sense of it all some of the second generation christians specially Paul came up with this brilliant idea to EXPLAIN his death that this actually was to save the mankind and take away their sins on cross.
There is no evidence that Jesus WANTED TO DIE for your sins, he actually was praying loudly to be saved according to bible.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Are not both the Quran and Bible filled with allegories and examples to give humans the ability to grasp things as ethereal as religion, salvation and spirituality? For example, why would God make the ultimate spritual reward a place of sex, food and riches? Because the limited capacity of the human mind cannot grasp the greater reward of spiritual vs. carnal pleasures. “Son” is used to indicate the embodiment of God’s love, not the offspring of his loins.

Perhaps God has embodied alien forms as well. Why do we have to assume he is limited in the forms he presents himself? Perhaps that is the way for God to experience what humans (or aliens) experience.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

*"Son" is used to indicate the embodiment of God's love, not the offspring of his loins. *

That ^ explaination is just to accomodate God in broader picture..

The actual reason for labling him "Son" was that he had no worldly father, so as our limited tini mini brains are not capable to understand this phenomina. So later people had to fit God in this capacity. Which is understandable.

In Islam/ Quran jesus is a prophet of God ( his creature ) like all humans, but he is special becuase of his virtues, noble deeds and love of fellow humans and not his so-called devine blood relationships

[quote]
Perhaps God has embodied alien forms as well. Why do we have to assume he is limited in the forms he presents himself? Perhaps that is the way for God to experience what humans (or aliens) experience
[/quote]

ok. fine :)

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

The so-called orthodox Muslim belief that a Jesus-look-alike was crucified instead of Hadhrat Jesusas, and that Hadhrat Jesusas was raised to heaven, to descend a later day, has no support in the Holy Quran. The origin of this popular belief is from Christian sources, as I will show in a future article.
The Quran is quite clear that Hadhrat Jesusas has passed away, and gives no support to the concept of Hadhrat Jesusas physically going to heaven. Some specific verses will now be considered:

"Jesus said, I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer and alms-giving so long as I live. He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He has not made me haughty and unblessed. Peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there shall be on the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again." (19:31-4)
The verse shows Hadhrat Jesusas must have died, and could not exist in heaven with his physical body:

If he was still alive, he would have to give alms in heaven, but who would need alms there?
If he would descend again to earth alive, he would have to follow the Jewish prescriptions on both prayer and alms-giving - and could not be a follower of Islamic law.
Did his mother accompany him to heaven physically? How could he otherwise behave like a dutiful son towards her?
"Keep in mind when God will say to Jesus, son of Mary: Didst thou say to people: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? - and he will answer, Holy art Thou, I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou who art the Knower of hidden things. I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things." (5:117-8)
The verse proves that:

The corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of Hadhrat Jesusas. If Hadhrat Jesusas is still alive, as some Muslims believe, then Christianity must still be pure.
The same Hadhrat Jesusas will not appear a second time in this world, as he would then become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God's judgment seat.

The Quran says about persons or beings worshiped as God: "They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised." (16:21)
If Hadhrat Jesusas is alive, as some Muslims believe, he must be God

The notion that Hadhrat Jesusas floated into the sky towards God is an Un-Quranic concept. Before going into the specific verses which refute this popular belief, it should be noted that Heaven is a spiritual state which our souls experience AFTER death. It is not a physical location beyond the stratosphere. By climbing Mount Everest, we do not come closer to God!

Humans, according to the Quran, must live and die in the physical universe.

"And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time, He said, therein shall you live and therein shall you die and therefrom shall you be brought forth." ( 7:25-6)

"Have we not made the earth so as to hold the living and the dead?" (77:26-7)

On one occasion the enemies of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, challenged him that they will not believe in him unless he "ascend up into heaven" and "send down to us a Book." (17:93) The Holy Prophetsaw replied: "Holy is my Lord! I am but a mortal sent as a messenger." (17:93)

Thus the Prophets, like all humans, lived and died on the earth. If Jesus is alive today, he must be more than a mortal.

IF ANY HUMAN BEING WAS ABLE TO GO TO HEAVEN WITH HIS PHYSICAL BODY THEN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OUR BELOVED HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMADsaw, THE GREATEST OF ALL PROPHETS. But the verses above indicate that since he is but a man, it is not possible.

"When Allah said, O Jesus, I will cause you to die and will raise you to myself, and will clear thee of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection, then to Me shall be your return and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ." (3:56)

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

If you read Gospel of Barnabas which is in the vatican city and is not allowed to be taken as the authentic bible, you will find the same account.

What ahmadjee and FrozenFire are saying are merely Qadiyaani beliefs and those are such so that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed can be justified as Jesus.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Is this not the #1 reason Muslims argue against the divinity of Jesus?

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

no one argues against Jesus in Islam.. he's as divine as he is.. and the reason people don't accept the theory of him being God's son is not cuz they wanted their Prophet Muhammad to be one.. but because their belief system is around One God and that God Himself proclaimed He has no offsprints AND that the prevalent Christian belief of taking Jesus as His son is incorrect.

Re: Islamic Version of the crucifition of Christ

Quite well put.

In the end all boils down to faith…