Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

Islamic socialism is the deadly combination of two of the worst possible forms of running an economy. Socialistic practices have almost disappeared or in the process of disappearing from the two biggest protagonists; now-deceased USSR, and Mao’s jannat China. However the evils of Islamic socialism are alive and well and wrecking havoc in the countries that are sucking up to this poisonous brew.

Economy, innovation and knowledgebase are the three essential pillars of a society’s progress. However introduction of Sharia in the economy means the immediate demise of innovation, and hence knowledgebase. The root of Sharia’s poison can be traced to an unreliable but widely practiced hadees “Kullo bidatun zalalah, kullo zalalatu finnar” trans: Every innovation is terrible, and every terrible thing will be put in (hell) fire”.

Sure some people may say this hadees is “weak”, or the term “innovation” applies only to the religious matters. However innovation and research is a mindset that challenges everything all the time. A nation innovative in one sphere must be allowed to innovate in every sphere. No religious or dogmatic shackles should be put on a creative mind.

If you look at the patents registered every year, you would know why Americans lead the world. They are innovating in every sphere of life. Only sky is the limit. This however is never allowed in Islamic socialists societies.

That’s why Pakistan will remain under-developed as long as the twin menace of Islamism and socialism keeps its chokehold on our young people’s brains. Their will not be a google, a Microsoft, an IBM, a GE, or Dupont in a socialist or Islamic country (period).

2

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

for reasons beyond my comprehension, pakistan has proven to be fertile ground for every crackpot theory out there. socialism in particular has proven to be popular because pakistanis are lazy. they want to go to office at 1100 and their aspirations dont amount to more than eating susraal biryani 5 times a week. socialism is the best system for meeting the needs of lazy, mediocre qaum and hence its popularity among pak elite. another reason for popularity of socialism is that hard working, resourceful and talented people cant get ahead which suits pakistanis just fine. nothing bothers pakistanis more than watching a brother achieve success.

unfortunately since even india has shaken off socialism, pakistan cannot afford policy mistake like the one made in 70's. india, which is now sitting on $215bn of reserves, is ramping up defence spending in order to gain strategic advantage over pak. i am not not convinced that we have the ability to counter india. unfortunately people who dont value their freedom dont deserve to be free.

3

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Don't blame some idiotic ideology for our economy woes. Blame Bhutto and his dumbass policy of nationalizing our banks, our steel sector and so many other areas. Due to his dumbass nationalization policies, the current need for privatization is so great.

Bhutto single handedly destoryed our economy. Nationalization = death of economy and death of FDI.

4

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

No need to beat up Pakistanis for embracing Islamic mumbo jumbo socialism. At present Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, and North Korea are in lead for the title of top show-shaw-list (socialist) entity in the world. And some of them happen to be part of the "axis of evil" too.

Socialism is a disease that spreads due to lefti journalists and academia in almost every country of the world with a handful of exceptions.

Islamic socialism the worse combination of two viruses has gripped almost every entity of Oh-I-See (OIC) group except the city state of Dubai.

Faisal Ji, You said it right that India is doing better these days.

India is carrying the same disease though. Just see their baboo run show-shaw-list policies.

However their progress is the result of three main things and many others.

  1. India's (Gujju) pro-America business class
  2. Indian diaspora in America is 100% nationalist and pro-West
  3. India's wholesale embrace of pop culture that brings in tourism and business.

BTW the same three factors are responsible for the development of Asian tigers such as Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and China.

Pakistan is down on its knees because we lack the very same three factors. This is why?

  1. Pakistan's business class lost its pro-West leaders thanks to Z A Bhatto. These days our business class is the being sucked off by (or sucking up to) fascist Mullahs or even bigger fascistic MQM.

  2. Pakistani diaspora in the West is anti-USA thanks to their slavery to Egyptian Islamo-socialistic-fascistics aka Mullah bakri.

  3. Pakistani cities like Karachi, Lahore, and lala-abad Islamabad are the centers of anti-West hate and tribal madness. Few Westerners dare to venture out and enjoy an evening at the Karachi beaches, boat-rides in Ravi, or picnic at Rawal Lake.

You even wonder why? Global flow of money to Asia goes first to Japan, then to Taiwan, then to South Korea, then to China, then to Singapore, then to Dubai and lastly to India.

There is one big reason.

**It is a lot of fun **to be in in these places. The day Pakistan becomes a lot of fun to visit, we'll get all the tourists followed closely by the high-tech companies.

5

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Okay, normally, I'm not the one defending muslims, and don't take this post to be a defense of muslims. Muslims are horrible people. Period. Anyone who is alive today can testify to that, because look at the crap that goes on in muslim countries.

Having said that, there is simply no such thing as Islamic socialism in practice, nor has there been any such thing as Islamic socialism in practice. Muslim countries, at the moment, are either being governed through corrupt monarchies, corrupt democratic/republic institutions, corrupt oligarchies, or corrupt dictatorships.

Socialism tho bhari duur ki baat hai, as the class differences in most muslim countries is pretty big, and very reminiscent of the old hindu caste systems, where social mobility is impossible, and the social playing field is anything but level.

The other error that I'd like to point out is regarding the hadees you posted. Please note that "innovations" as used to translate this hadith doesn't mean inventions or science. Seeking knowledge is considered of utmost importance in Islamic theory, as can be demonstrated by many other hadees translations and the general tone of the Quran. The term "innovations" here, is used to mean some type of Bid-dah. Meaning, something you've made up and incorporated into Islam. Like for example, the concept of "Niyaz" as practiced by Pakistanis or the concept of visiting "darghas" in Pakistani culture.

Having said that, I do feel that Islam as its being taught today and as its being preached today would be unable to serve as foundation for a state. But that's not because Islam is itself wrong. Rather, the way its being applied is wrong. When a country like Pakistan places more importance on beard and hijab than on being a good citizen and following civic duties, then its no wonder that people don't hold faith in Islam as being a valid way to run a government. However, the past can testify that if Islam is practiced properly and if its applied correctly by a non-corrupt institution, then its not such a bad guideline to follow when forming a government. But its just that. It can serve as a guideline, where you take from it the principals on which you build your laws. It cannot possibly serve as a complete form of government, and we know that because there are a gazillion sharias developed for different places, cultures, and time periods.

We muslims are just too scared to part from our past and move forward. And that's because of the type of teachers and scholars we have today teaching us our Islam. If we just stopped listening to them and just read the Quran on our own, half of our problems would go away.

6

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Whether the term islamic socialism applies or not, the 3 factors he mentions (pro-business mindset, nationalist & pro-west (which I'll modify as open/capitalist policy bias), and embracing a hospitable mentality towards foreigners are indeed key for progress of any kind.

while 'socialistic' policies lead to things like control, excessive government involvement and programs wittingly or unwittingly targetting wealth redistribution, islamic laws certainly give the impression (and not just impression) of a pre-medieval society which drives away anyone who may even look at investing in pakistan.

7

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

If the Islamic laws say that all women need to be covered, and that the only forms of entertainment are Quran nights at the local masjid, then yeah, it would drive people away.

But you know, the majority of muslims around the world are pretty balanced people.

Like I said, if you base your laws on basic principals from the Quran - i.e. appropriate and fair punishments for murder, rape, theft, etc - and proper programs for the betterment of the poor and downtrodden and proper focus on the education and advancement of females - then no country should be afraid to invest in you, right??

By the way, a good chunk of American domestic policy is very socialist based - like our medicare and medicaid, and other welfare programs. Its not purely capitalistic.

The prophet, by the way, was a businessman. So, I don't know WHY or HOW a muslim country couldn't be business-focused.

Tariq, the Quranic verses don't put forth a medieval type of imagery. In fact, you have western countries that place heavy weight on Judeo-Christian traditions, and if you read the Bible or Torah, you'll find their laws way more medieval. Part of it is a separation of religion and state, which you'd have to institute in an Islamic country. Ironically, this is not what most maulvis would agree with. However, the majority of Islam is very individual, and the state has no right to interfere on most matters of your personal worship.

ex. In Islam, the government has NO RIGHT to enforce you to pray 5 times a day. But present-day clerics would create some sort of program in an Islamic-based government to enforce you to your prayers. We saw this as a possibility in the Hisbah Bill that was much argued in the NWFP some time ago (the idea that a town representative could enter your home and possibly demand evidence of your religion affinity and force you to go pray if they found you not praying during namaz time).

8

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Bro, your point is moot. It reeks of an immature understanding.

9

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

^ Exhibit A.

10

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

antiobl, ever heard of the phrase neem hakeem khatra jaan?

Your post is totally out of place and out of context. For eg, your understanding of the Hadeeth you posted is absolutely out of place, and pcg for once does something worthwhile and corrects you there.

It were the Islamic states and Muslims living in these states a few hundred years ago, that revolutionized phyical sciences, optics, medicine, astronomy, geography, navigation...you name it, they did it.

And if muslims have done it before, they can surely do it again. Its just a matter of time and achieving favorable conditions. The sahaabas didnt just start inventing compasses and drawing the insides of a humans eye during the Makki/Madani period, as soon as they read the kalima.

Muslims are credited to have influenced the renaissance period. Had it not been for this Muslims, the works of the greeks would have been lost in time, and there wouldnt be any Microsoft and Dupont, for you to drool at!

And, labelling the Shariah as poisonous has put your Islam in some grave danger. I would recommend you to think about the grave where you'll be put in. The Googe's and the Apple's and the IBM's wont come to save you there.

11

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

I didn't know Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was Islamist (he is the one who really laid foundation of destruction of Pakistan's economy).

[quote]
Economy, innovation and knowledgebase are the three essential pillars of a society’s progress. However introduction of Sharia in the economy means the immediate demise of innovation, and hence knowledgebase. The root of Sharia’s poison can be traced to an unreliable but widely practiced hadees “Kullo bidatun zalalah, kullo zalalatu finnar” [trans: Every innovation is terrible, and every terrible thing will be put in (hell) fire”.
[/quote]

Your hate of Sharia knows no bounds.

[quote]
If you look at the patents registered every year, you would know why Americans lead the world. They are innovating in every sphere of life. Only sky is the limit. This however is never allowed in Islamic socialists societies.
[/quote]

You are even more dangerous than the so called neem-mullah, you don't even know what kind of innovation is forbidden, so sad. I thought "liberals, seculars" know what they are talking about but I guess I was wrong.

[quote]
That’s why Pakistan will remain under-developed as long as the twin menace of Islamism and socialism keeps its chokehold on our young people’s brains. Their will not be a google, a Microsoft, an IBM, a GE, or Dupont in a socialist or Islamic country (period).
[/quote]

I agree, if Mullahs don't know about Islam, secularists don't know what they are talking about then yeah Pakistan will remain under-developed.

12

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Agree with most of these points with minor departures.

The major difference is that in some muslim societies, that includes pakistan, circumstances have made business development very very difficult and islam has become the single biggest factor in such impediment. To put together so called 'islamic' banking, isnurance and financing deals people are going through unnecessary convulsions.

i think peope are afraid to stand uo and say certain things (whether they are edicts or merely evolved practice) have to be changed. that's what leads to the medieval impression, IMO. they have been accused of blasphemy if they think in terms of change.

13

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Business is business. If one can invest in possibly the most intrusive regime on earth, where the citizens have essentially NO rights (i.e. China), then there's hope for all.

Lack of a mature market, an undisciplined workforce, archaic management practices, and post-colonial laws that really aren't well suited for global commerce are more of a factor than the village Mullah, although he certainly is the most favorite of targets.

14

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Whereas it's getting very old to hear the same "blame the mullah" song, it's also getting tiring to hear ballads of past achievements. Although this does, without doubt, contradict any and all notions of Islam being incompatible with "progress" - never mind it's a heavily ideologically laced term that one usually invokes as a straw man - such nostalgia can only serve as a confidence building measure. Bottom line: it's time to tune out the nay-saying morons.

We have confidence. This is good. Now what? There's a fundamental problems that need to be solved. People are starting to work on it...but there are some things those of us lay-folk who really aren't government big wigs can do to get things gong. Pushing a multi-faceted education as a priority, not just a virtue, is a good start; demanding accountability at the very least at a municipal level is also a good thing. I'm sure the list can be expanded on...

15

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

If you're talking about the avoidance of interest in an "Islamic" (and I'm only talking about theory, because like I've been saying, there is no real Islamic country these days) civilization, then that really shouldn't be the root of all economic problems in a country.

The Islamic empire was, in its height, a money mine. They didn't have interest.

Furthermore, interest is great for the lender, not so much for people like me who are cutting coupons at the moment just to work with the budget I have. The money I'm going to be oweing banks and the government in some years is going to be ridiculous. The concept of buying something when you can't afford it, whether its through the help of credit or interest, etc has its pitfalls. You're seeing that currently in the US with real estate bubble bursting and a possible and pretty scary credit crunch.

Its simple. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. But with interest loans and credit, people are going off and buying stuff they can't afford and they're getting carried away with it. Its bound to have negative effects. As much as I do like capitalism, it, like any other economic system, has its problems.

* IF ABOVE PERSON SAY I LOVE U *
16

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

pcg, your view of credit is rather one sided. one obvious benefit of credit is that it allows you to acquire valuable assets by spreading the cost of that asset over a long period. for example, when you graduate from college, you can only afford to rent. however by taking a mortgage, you can build equity value in your house which wont be possible if you rent. you can abuse credit by borrowing beyond your capability but that is true for most things out there. anything in excess, such as eating too much biryani, is not good for you. does not mean that you should give up eating biryani.

17

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

Obviously, I agree with you to some degree, otherwise, I wouldn't have a credit card.

However, a lot of what you said could be achieved by non-interest loans.

I have a question though...I just realized - would credit even be considered haraam? As long as you pay your money back within a given time frame, right? Like I use a credit card, and then pay the bank back whatever I owe, and they don't charge me any interest. shrugs I guess you can have credit in an Islamic state.

Dekha! Islam isn't so bad after all.

* IF ABOVE PERSON SAY I LOVE U *
18

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

pcg, i am not sure if there is such a thing as non-interest loan. there would be no incentive to lend if people who had capital were not compensated.

as far credit being unislamic, i dont know anything about that. i worked in a bank in pak after graduating from college in late 90's. my boss over there was a carbon copy of bin laden. once when i introduced a khatoon friend of mine to him, he refused to shake her hands saying to her face that"mein aurtoan sey haath nahee milata". if he had no problems with credit then that is good enough for me.

19

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

gudia, in that case interest should be made compulsory to discourage people from getting deep into debt in buying stuff they can't afford. (there are exceptional circumstances where help must be extended for necessities).

But my concern is not merely interest.

20

Re: Islamic socialism resulted in utter destruction of Pak economy

I'm only vaguely familiar with the subject, but interest-free loans involve some kind of fee, rather than a compounded interest rate. Other schemes escape me, the essential point being that risk is distributed between loaner (who becomes more of an investor) and the one receiving the loan...or something like that...

Aaj Kiss Baat Par Gussa Aaya ??????