Islamic Position on Women Leaders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Contrary to popular belief women can be leaders, politically and otherwise…

The Prophet supposedly said, “defeat for those who let themselves be led by a woman.”

"According to Aisha the meanings of this hadith got lost in its textualization by the narrator, Abu Harriya, a man who was known for his contempt for women. Yet, Muslim women are forced to accept its implications all over the world. They are seldom encouraged to find reasons to refute it on the grounds that this hadith contradicts the Prophets life history and his attitude towards women who were significant in his life.

He was raised by Amina, his mother, and Halima, his wet nurse, as he was born after his fathers death. His first wife, Khadija, 14 years his senior, provided him with love, material support and intellectual challenge. His youngest wife Aisha whom he married when she was nine years old, while he was in his fifties, freely argued with him on gender issues and political matters. He shared household chores with his wives and was always respectful to them. How can a man who was so deeply influenced by women declare them as a source of “defeat for those who let themselves be led by them.” Censorship of Islamic jurisprudence is undertaken by hiding the fact that it took Muslim Umma more than three centuries for textualizing the versions of Islamic jurisprudence available today. As well, male domination in the process of forming the text, leaves little doubt in viewing this body of legislation is free of bias." (Gender Identity and Muslim Women: Tool of Oppression Turned into Empowerment - Nayyar Javed, Convergence, Volume XXVII)

Muhammad Asad, a Jewish convert to Islam (who has translated the Quran), and a friend of Allama Iqbal also supported the right of Muslim women in politics.

"Asad was saddened by the intellectual insularity of the Muslim world, the intolerance of the extremists, and was a powerful advocate of the rights of Muslim women to lead. It was Asad’s insistence that the constitution of Pakistan allow for the election of a woman leader that opened the way for Benazir Bhutto.

“The great mistake (of the fundamentalists),” he once explained, “is that most of these leaders start with the hudud, criminal punishment. This is the end result of the sharia (Islamic Law), not the beginning. The beginning is the rights of the people. There is no punishment in Islam which has no corresponding right.”

Hope that provides a different perspective.

Achtung :wink:

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Good topic Achtung and some interesting points made as usual.

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Assalamualaikum Achtung,

If I remember well, there's also another Hadith that states something more or less to this effect: "A nation with a woman at the helm of its affairs will never be successful". I can't remember who reported it though. Also, from everyhing you've said, there's no strong evidence stating that women can be political leaders. I think if the Muslims could have had women leaders as you describe, then the best time for that would have been after the death of the Prophet(S.A.W.). One of his wives could have become the leader of the Ummah. But it didn't happen that way. The Prophet(S.A.W.)'s successor was Abu Bakr(R.A.), not one of his wives.

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Bismihi Ta'la
Assalam o alaikum

I would suggest reading

  1. Even Angels Ask, br. Jeffrey Lang
  2. Struggling to Surrender, br. Jeffrey Lang

Available from Amana Publications, who also have a web site. He carries an extensive discussion on the role of women and in particular the [ab] use of the hadith that has been the subject of much attention.

Nevertheless, for Islam to prosper in the West, the issue of Womens rights, their participation in the religious and social healm of the affairs becomes more so imperative, in the struggle towards the vision of an ummah.

With request for prayers

AbbAsAli

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"...from everything you've said, there's no strong evidence stating that women can be political leaders. I think if the Muslims could have had women leaders as you describe, then the best time for that would have been after the death of the Prophet(S.A.W.)."

If a women was in the position Abu Bakr was in, surely she would have led the Ummah. Similarly if Abu Bakr happened to be a woman the people would have rallied support for his leadership, regardless of gender. Abu Bakr was chosen as a leader because he was Abu Bakr, not because he was a man. Just because one of the Prophet's wives did not become a leader following his death, doesn't mean that Islam does not allow women leaders. To make such a conclusion is idiocy.

The Qur'an doesn't stipulate anywhere that women cannot be leaders. The hadith you mentioned is almost identical to the one posted in the original post - its just worded differently. Aisha (one of the Prophets beloved wives) refuted this hadith.

If Allah wished for man to be the exclusive leader in public affairs and private He would have stipulated it clearly in the Qur'an. The Prophet himself, came to Khadija for advice in his public life and she provided him with monetary funds, taking care of him - not the other way around. The Prophet by your logic transgressed Islam. He not only allowed a women to work, he also allowed her to provide for him (a man) and on top of that he asked her for advice in his public affairs - in a sense she was at the "helm of [the Prophet's] affairs".

"A nation with a woman at the helm of its affairs will never be successful".

1) Aisha refuted this Hadith.
2) There is no concept of nation in Islam - the nation state is a concept Muslims are still grappling with, coming into existence after colonialism.
3) This denys the underlying notion of equality central in Islam. Somewhere along the way religious orthodoxy seems to have thrown equality out the door.
4) If you stretch the argument, this is in fact innovation. You are adding something to Islam which does not exist. The Quran doesn't say anywhere that Muslim women cannot be leaders. Stop taking Bukhari over the Qur'an, why do you keep taking Hadith over the Qur'an to support your twisted logic. Bukhari isn't Allah - but sometimes when I read these orthodox interpretations of Islam, I have to wonder.
5) If you stretch it even further, this is shirk. Women are inferior to men. Women must be protected by men. Women must be led by men. Women must serve men. In Islam both men and women are slaves only to Allah. Allah provided us with the Qur'an for guidance - it is our true "leader". This hadith (for women) places "men" before "Allah" and His word as it is related in the Qur'an. Women are led by men than Allah. This is a perversion of Islam.

No sorry to destroy your dreams of a male dominated world - Islam is a religion of equality - look in the pages of the Qur'an, women are equal to men and either can lead the Ummah.

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Behold The Return of the Rationalist.

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Assalamualaikum to all.

Achtung: May I ask if you ever thought why
Allah SWT didnt ever send a lady prophet
to lead any particular ummah??

Now please dont tell us that Allah SWT is
sex bias or whatever, there is a clear
message behind it, pls think it over.

If I found any particular Quranic verses
or hadith to this effect I shall post them.

Ladies: pls do not get discouraged because
even prophets have got mothers so they are
still the leaders at HOME but not in society.

Regards

8

Assalamualaikum Br. Achtung,

I believe you misunderstood me. I am not saying that the fact that none of the Prophet(S.A.W.)'s wives not becoming the leader of the Muslim Ummah after his death is strong proof about women not being allowed to lead. In your original post, you said:
'He was raised by Amina, his mother, and Halima, his wet nurse, as he was born
after his fathers death. His first wife, Khadija, 14 years his senior, provided him
with love, material support and intellectual challenge. His youngest wife Aisha
whom he married when she was nine years old, while he was in his fifties, freely
argued with him on gender issues and political matters. He shared household
chores with his wives and was always respectful to them. How can a man who
was so deeply influenced by women declare them as a source of "defeat for
those who let themselves be led by them."', which was essentially your "proof" of Islam allowing women to be leaders. All I meant to say, was that if you use this argument, then the one I provided would be a good rebuttal against yours.

Also, you told me to look in the Quran to see what it say about this matter. Is there anything specific you would like me to see, or would you just like me to read it from the beginning to the end and see if I find anything. If you can find me the verse(s) in the Quran that go against the Hadith that I provided, then I will disregard that Hadith right away.

And now for your question, why do I take Bukhari over Quran. Well I don't. If the Quran and Bukhari contradicted one another, then of course I would take the Quran. Speaking of Quran, I believe the Quran might say something related to this in the Sura 4 "Women" (I think Sura 4 is called "Women", that's its name translated in English . If I remember well, it does say stuff pretty close to what you said here:
". Women are inferior to men. Women
must be protected by men. Women must be led by men. Women must serve men."

Don't take my word on it though. Verify it for yourself, and give me time to look it up too.

Remember though, if you want to convince me of your point, the best thing to do would be to use Quran and Hadith to support your points. Also, YOU may be the one adding stuff to Islam by saying women can rule the Ummah. Also remember, that the most worthy women of the Ummah never lead it.

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I've been bombarded with the sentiments of the Traditional orthodox Ulama!

Achtung ;)

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JAK - response to post in Political Forum:

1) I don't know much about the life of Abu Huraira, only that he was followed around by a cat (or cats) I think. The quotation I used came from an article written by Nayyar S. Javed, a Muslim woman from Pakistan who is a psychologist in Canada. I think what she was referring to is the countless hadiths narrated by Huraira which seem to indicate that Islam is very much based on patriarchal traditions and that Prophet Muhammad advocated the subjagation of women. Huraira seems to be a chief narrator of hadith, he seems to always be at the right place at the right time - it almost seems like he is the King of gossip in the Islamic history books. He witnesses so much - from the Prophet's prayer habits to the way the Prophet washes himself and bathes. I think its important to view all of these hadiths with skepticism. They didn't originate in a vacuum, many are specific to events which occured in that time period, while others seem to contradict the life of the Prophet and the teachings of the Quran, while still others are absurdly ridiculous and take away from the true message of Islam. Napolean said that "History was a lie agreed upon". I'm not saying that the hadith narrators are liars - but definately some of their narrations should be brought into question.

2) Again just because the Prophet didn't stipulate or appoint a lady governer does not mean that Islam is against the idea of women leading the Ummah. Remember that the Prophet didn't implicitly appoint Abu Bakr to be the First Caliph of Islam (yet he became just that). The schism between the Shia and Sunni demonstrates this well enough. The Prophet didn't designate anyone to lead the Ummah - it seems as though he left the choice quite open. He didn't say women cannot lead, and neither does the Qur'an, therefore we cannot conclude that Islam is adverse to women leaders.

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Mohammed Ali:

You wrote: "May I ask if you ever thought why Allah SWT didnt ever send a lady prophet to lead any particular ummah??"

From this you conclude that women can not lead the ummah. There were many prophets sent to guide us, some of them may have been women - we don't know for sure. There were no messengers who were female - this is true.

"Now please dont tell us that Allah SWT is
sex bias or whatever, there is a clear
message behind it, pls think it over."

Jump to whatever conclusions you want - the message isn't clear - there is no message - your reading into something that doesn't exist.

You wrote: "If I found any particular Quranic verses or hadith to this effect I shall post them."

Please do - I'll do my best to refute them.

You wrote: "Ladies: pls do not get discouraged because even prophets have got mothers so they are still the leaders at HOME but not in society."

Yes ladies - don't worry the orthodox Ulama still value your services as the biological reproducers of our progeny and the bearers of our cultural authenticity. Bury your heads in your veils and excersice your wombs, your weak little minds are only capable of these few tasks (according to the Orthodox Ulama).

Achtung ;)

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Asif2:

You wrote: "All I meant to say, was that if you use this argument, then the one I provided would be a good rebuttal against yours."

The argument was actually rooted in the sentiments of Aisha who refuted the hadith. The hadith itself is weak and is a contradiction of the equality preached in the pages of the Qur'an. In relation to Aisha, she was a strong brilliant woman she had knowledge of the Quran, the hadith, mathematics and medicine, and also provided leadership (yes leadership) in the political arena - she led the famous war of camel against powerful Ali.

You wrote: "Also, you told me to look in the Quran to see what it say about this matter. Is there anything specific you would like me to see, or would you just like me to read it from the beginning to the end and see if I find anything."

We have to take the Quran in its entirety. If we do so we will see that one of the biggest contributions of Islam is the fact that it embraces justice and equality. No where does the Quran stipulate that women are not permitted to be leaders, and nowhere in the Quran does it say that men are solely permitted to lead the Ummah. The fact that Muhammad Asad, a man well versed in the Quran (he spent a great portion of his life translating the religious document) supported the rights of women to work and lead Muslim communities and nations, is an indication of Islam's flexibility when dealing with this
particular issue.

You wrote: "...I believe the Quran might say something related to this in the Sura 4 "Women" (I think Sura 4 is called "Women", that's its name translated in English . If I remember well, it does say stuff pretty close to what you said here: "Women are inferior to men. Women must be protected by men. Women must be led by men. Women must serve men."

The verse you are talking about is (I believe),

"(Husbands) are the protectors and maintainers of their (wives) because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in the (husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard." (4:34 - Yusuf Ali's translation)

This verse is open to judgment and reinterpretation (I'd like to read Muhammad Asad's translation - when I get a copy I'll paste it here). It would be interesting to see a Quran translated by a woman, the difference in transliteration would be startling I'm sure. The Quran is best understood in its Arabic form. I'm sure their are discrepencies in Yousuf Ali's translation - his translation is criticized in many Islamic
circles.

"Also, YOU may be the one adding stuff to Islam by saying women can rule the Ummah. Also remember, that the most worthy women
of the Ummah never lead it."

I haven't added anything, its the Orthodox Ulama which has solidified Islam into an inflexible dogma. They are responsible
for adding traditions to our beautiful religion to retain their position and insure their patriarchial rule. Presently they
are supported in their conquest by western imperialists, who see their subjagation of minorities and underprivlideged (including
women) as a necessary condition to insure that their geo-political interests are met.

Achtung ;)

[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited March 03, 1999).]

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Assalamualaikum Achtung,

As for the Hadith I presented, can you give me the reference where Aisha(R.A) refutes it? As long as you can't find me any proof that it is weak, then I'll believe it. Also, you seem sure that the Hadith which I presented, and that which you did are the same thing. I'm not so sure.

About the Abu Bakr becoming the first Khalifa, I'm not saying that he was necessarily the obvious successor of the Prophet(S.A.W.), but he was accepted as a successor, by the Prophet(S.A.W.) himself. The reason that Shias never convinced me that Ali(R.A.) should have certainly been the successor of the Prophet(S.A.W.), is that Abu Bakr(R.A.) lead the Prophet(S.A.W.)'s last Salaat. If there Ali(R.A.) was to be the successor of the Prophet(S.A.W.), then the Prophet(S.A.W.) would have asked Ali(R.A.) to lead the prayer when he himself couldn't.

Also, the people who try to declare the Hadith that I presented as being weak, are inconsistent. The major argument they have to support their point is that it was reported by someone unreliable. The people who say this is a weak Hadith can't even agree upon who reported it.

As far as I am concerned, Abu Huraira(R.A.) is quite a reliable source. You claim that he reported the Hadith that you originally presented, but I don't think he's the one who reported the Hadith I presented. I'm not even sure who reported it. As I said in my original reply, I don't know who reported it. I'll need time to verify it.

You said:
"2) There is no concept of nation in Islam - the nation state is a concept Muslims
are still grappling with, coming into existence after colonialism."

A translation of the word "Ummah" in English is "nation".

I believe you found the correct verses from Sura 4. Two of the people whose Tafsir of Quran I trust are Yussuf Ali and Pickthal. The only way you can get me to reject a Hadithis if it contradicts the Quran. You would have to find me specific Quranic verses which contradict the Hadith, if it comes from a reliable source.

14

Fabulous topic Achtung

It is interesting to see that as Muslims, we pride ourselves on seeking knowledge and scientific/societal progress, we allowed colonial/western rule to affect us so much. And so detrimentally.

Thanks for looking out for my ability to "exercise my womb" and maintain home and hearth.

Since that is all our Muslim fore-mothers did. Thanks for the education Achtung.

Aliabbas.
Who’s Jeffery lang?

[This message has been edited by kashmirigirl (edited March 06, 1999).]

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Thanks for replying Kashmirigirl, I was beginning to wonder if any women cared about this post - it seems as though the women gupshuppers aren't involved in religious discussions at all.

Sometimes it makes me feel like the sole Islamic feminist on GupShup! But I don't mind.

Achtung ;)

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It will be interesting to see the Quranic verses in support of equal rights of women. At least in practice, whether it is number of marriages or mode of divorce, I see no equality. Waiting for quotes from Quran.

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Gender Equity in the Qur'an:

Men and women are equal in the Qur'an. This is stated on countless occasions. "Indeed, the Qur'an is full of verses affirming the equality of women and men. I defy patriarchy's theologians to reconcile these verses with any bias against women or even relegation of women to a sheltered -- that is, inferior - status," or denial of the right of Muslim women to lead the Ummah (Dr. Rifat Hassan):

Never will I suffer to be lost
The work of any of you,
Be he male or female:
Ye are members, one of another
[Surah 3:Al-'Imran:195]

If any do deeds
of righteousness, --
be they male or female --
And have faith,
They will enter Heaven,
And not the least injustice
Will be done to them.
[Surah 4:An-Nisa':124]

The Believers, men
And women, are protectors,
One of another: they enjoin
What is just, and forbid
What is evil: they observe
Regular prayers, practice
Regular charity, and obey
God and His Apostle.
On them will God pour
His mercy: for God
Is Exalted in power, Wise.
God hath promised to Believers,
Men and women, Gardens
Under which rivers flow,
To swell therein,
And beautiful mansions
In Gardens of everlasting bliss.
But the greatest bliss
Is the Good Pleasure of God:
That is the supreme felicity.
[Surah 9:At-Tawbah:71-72]

Whoever works righteousness,
Man or woman, and has Faith,
Verily, to him will We give
A new Life, a life
That is good and pure, and We
Will bestow on such their reward
According to the best
Of their actions.
[Surah 16:An-Nahl:97]

For Muslim men and women, --
For believing men and women,
For devout men and women,
For true men and women,
For men and women who are
Patient and constant, for men
And women who humble themselves,
For men and women who give
In Charity, for men and women
Who fast (and deny themselves),
For men and women who
Engage much in God's praise, --
For them has God prepared
Forgiveness and great reward.
[Surah 23:Al-Mu'minum:35]

In Surah (9 - 71-72) above, men and women are protectors one of another. This is an important distinction for those who argue that women are weak (intellectually, emotionally and physically) and must be protected from harm by their male counterparts. You can't take verses of the Qur'an on their own, you have to view the revelation in its entirety and if you do so, you will notice that men and women are equal.

You asked specifically about marriages in Islam and in particular polygamy. The following verses pertain to the question of polygamy in the Qu'ran:

"And if you fear that you will not act justly towards the orphans, marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear that you will not be equitable, then only one, or what your right hands own; so it is likelier that you will not be partial (or become destitute)." (4:3)

"You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, even so you be eager. Yet, do not be altogether partial so that you leave her (i.e., the wife discriminated against) as it were suspended. If you set things right, and are God-minded (or godfearing), God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." (4:129)

Some argue that the second verse is an abrogation of the first. The line "you will not be able to be equitable between your wives." But most scholars believe that the status of polygamy in Islam is no more and no less than that of a permissible act. Not an act encouraged, but rather a rare exception. And, like any other act lawful in principle, it becomes forbidden if it involves unlawful things or leads to unlawful consequences such as injustice. Again its a matter of taking the Qur'an in its entirety and not just plucking out verses which suit your fancy. The Prophet curbed abuses by limiting polygamous relationships. In doing so he signified the harm in such relationships.

It could be effectively argued from reading those verses that Islam does not permit polygamous relationship unless "equity" exists among the consenting participants in the marriage. The definition of this "equity" is the issue contention. Some would argue it is an impossiblilty to achieve such a state of equity, while others (mainly conservative's who cling to the interpretations of early male Islamic jurists) would argue otherwise. Many modern scholars have argued against polygamy quite effectively, using the Qur'anic verses.

Another argument made by modern Islamic intellectuals is that these verses (particularly the ones revealed in Medina) should be understood in terms of the historical conditions in which they were revealed. They argue that these verses should not be used any longer in the development of social and economic institutions - although they should not be discarded either. This is a radical view. The majority feel that the verses should be re-interpreted. Ijtehad is our right, we do not have to rely on the interpretations of past jurists forever - afterall they were only men and were prone to error like the rest of us.

In terms of divorce, what in particular do you find unjust in Islamic divorce?

Achtung ;)

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Achtung

You go boy.....

19

Assalamualaikum,

Could you tell me how people try to argue against polygamy by using the Quran? In your post, from verse 129, it seems that polygamy is alright even if you try to be equitable among your wives, but can't be. These people who argue against polygamy can never prove it's wrong. That's a good thing too, since quite a few people I know still practice polygamy.

Have a nice day.
Asif.