Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Thank you for editing your post after I replied, but the fact still remains, Jinnah opted for a Pakistan where EVERYONE was free to practice their religions. Muslims will cease to be Muslims, Hindus will cease to be Hindus, not in the religious sense ofcourse, its a shame most people are still having difficulty understanding what he meant by that.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Each nation writes its history as they want. Indian history will always state that Pakistan was a 'Dominion of Pakistan' in opinion of Jinnah. Nothing is as authentical as listned in person. All people who ACTUALLY had PHYSICAL presence in speeches cannot be wrong and in our (Pakistan's) history all things are identical too.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Ohh what he really meant? How old are you? Did Jinnah came into your dreams to let you know his exact meanings? And all other people who worked with him, lost their homes and risked their lives after his words were stupids to let him understand wrong!!!!
Is this what you are trying to say??
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
First of all, youre a newbie, so dont get personal.l And secondly, learn to read, I quoted from a speech from Jinnah, now you probably chose to ignore it and heard something else from your grandfathers, thats not my fault.
Alot of you people tried to portray Jinnah as someone he was not, and called him a religious figure etc, which failed miserably. You guys make undermine his contributions and visions when you alter stuff.
Read this and die:
" You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State"
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Well yaar
there is nothing to be personal. It is a discussion forum. I may be a newbie here but I had been a member on may forums (both on the net and in real life).
Yes I do read and now let me state some quotes so you may also develop this habbit of reading:
Just read others before you comment. This has nothing to do with your seniority.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
u.ashref, how can secularism (the version adopted by the west) and an islamic state (the version you are referring to)go side to side? The Pakistan that would prosper has no place for whats happening right now. All these twisted laws such as ‘hudood’, ‘blasphemy’, defy his vision, and I hope you understand that.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Well read the above posted mesasage again my friend. Just repeating here again too:
“…Pakistan is going to be an Islamic country. This Islamic country will be secular in the sense that it will not interupt any followers of other relegions from practicing their worships…”
Now secularism is defined as “Religious skepticism or indifference”.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=secularism
So there is nothing much to confuse about. Jinnah always used the word in exact meanings.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Yeah, so then what problems do you see with the current Pakistan? I think we have failed to do what Jinnah wanted us to do, and twisted laws like Hudood are a testiment to that, what do you think about that? The problem doesnt lie with secularism, it lies with the way our religious leaders are interpreting certain Islamic laws. Do you think Jinnah would have liked it if a Pakistani Christian was murdered by an angry mob on fake blasphemy charges?
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Well dear friend,
I posted a thread above, probably the first one from me, I guess. Not very much like typing the same again here. In short I guess we never got a government except for the very first one, that really represented our people. When I say our people, I mean every politician from every area in this country must be selected by only the people residing in that particular area. For example, if both of us are politicians, I am living in Laore and you are in Karachi, then you cannot claim that this must be done in Lahore, or I cannot claim that Karachi needs this. In this case, neither you nor may will do what is required. Only a sinscere person living in some area, can sort out what is actually required there. We lack such people in politics. This does not mean that we don't have sincere people any more, but such people think they will just waste their time and energy in politics. If you or any one look around his surroundings it is very common to find people who have spent their lives just for this country and its people but are not interested in coming to politics. This attitude must be discouraged and such people deserve to be in assemblies. Unless these people who really deserves to be deciding our future must be placed in assemblies, we cannot correct any thing.
Jinnah was too ill just after Pakistan appeared and then he died. We had no other leader in politics who was as famous and acceptable as was Jinnah at the time. He was the last politician who was able to take any stand against Technocrats or who was able to make the first constitution for this country based on public opinion or Muslim League's agenda. Some Bureaucrats and Generals used this scene to start their games and after Liaqat Ali Khan's assasination, they got a free hand. These games are continuing even today. The first constitution of Pakistan was just a modification of the British constitution that was acting in India and Pakistan before and just after the partition. It was not powerful to save us from Generals and it did not reflected the wishes of those who sacrifised their lives and everything for it.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Sincerity towards the religion cannot be ascertained and validated by any human being, if you think u hv the seal of authority then Iam sorry u violate the basic tenets of Islamic teachings. Thus the importance of hvg a secular state where ppl do not act like gods in determining other ppls religious sincerity.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
These words are very telling of what the quaid’s vision was a state where religion was not dictated, where state had no business in religion and it was people’s personal business. The state will protect the right for ppl to practice their faith but not get in the business of religion itself.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
I have’nt mentioned hizb ut tahrir you have common sense is something you don’t have me thinks 
by the way i think you need to improve your jokes because there not funny at least try harder.
so if people are banned and labelled terrorists what do you want me to do about it do you actually have a point or not?
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Islam has a set method in which it is to be implemented on earth if it is not to be implmented by humans by whom will it be implemented the trees?
The secualr state is a failure 50 years this experiment has carried on in pakistan and what has it done caused more confusion and more fighting than anyone could have imagined. Also secualrism reduces islam to just a set of rituals and this is unnaceptable islam is a politcal aqeedah also for secularism to work in place like pakistan you have to make the entire population become non muslim and this as you know is not happpening.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
ak47- but which version of Islam is the right one for the political aqeedah. lets have that worked out otherwise an "islamic" state will not be "islamic" to all muslims .. right
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Secularism as envisioned by Jinnah or in its true spirit has never been practiced in Pakistan. In its 50 odd years of existence, Pakistan has been ruled as an authoritarian state either under trhe military or semi-civilian governments.
Contrary to popular opinion, religious parties have been part of the govt under Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq and now Musharraf.
You say Islam has set of methods to be implemented by humans. No one denies that fact, but Islam also says La ikra Fi.Iddinaa @let there be no compulsion in religion.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
ak007, Jinnahs vision of Pakistan wasnt even close to being part of your khilifopoly, even usman would agree on that. This nation wasnt created so that we can succumb to someone like Osama Bin Ladin (your ameer) as our khalifah, so please restrict yourself to distriburing flyers outside of manchester masjid.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Pakistan, as a whole, can never progress as an Islamic state. Hopefully some moderation will lead to a secular state with certain Islamic values fused in.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
people get the government they aspire for. by implication they get the country they desire.
IMO regardless of what jinnah wanted said or wrought, pakistanis have to take charge of themselves instead of looking to magical pronounecments from religion and jinnah.
how else will things change?
I don't want to just criticise so will offer following.
How many of you know how many engineering colleges have been started in th elast 5 years?
What is the top controllable agricultural issue in pakistan?
What are th limits of military authority and what authority does your civilian police have over an offending soldier of some rank?
What is the succession plan for your chief economist?
Who all know the codes and protocols to your satellite?
What are the biggest shipping infrastr projects in your country?
When will you have a judiciary?
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
Total 135
About 20% of these institutes have been opened in last few (4,5 or 6 years).
About half of them are pure technical and research institutes.
For details: http://www.pakistanpage.net/education/
These institutes at their full strength are enough to accommodate 60-70% of candidates. For all candidates to be educated according to their will, we need at least 40 more.
What is the top controllable agricultural issue in Pakistan?
Hard to say, but it is not water but the use of agriculture-able area to build new housing schemes. This way we are loosing huge %age of our area since 1990s, and thus the vegetables are becoming scarce and expensive. So even if we have enough water after some years we will have lost most of our agricultural area that is irrigate-able too through our existing canal system. Thus we have to devote some new areas for agriculture and provide canal system for them which will cost a lot. New colonies and towns must be built on areas that are not used for agriculture.
What are the limits of military authority and what authority does your civilian police have over an offending soldier of some rank?
This is not related but…Well according to our Law, military was restricted to take any active part in politics. But then they put a marshal law, whoever was responsible for it, it is not legal in any ways, even if Musharaf or his CABINET put it legal in our law by using their powers. So these days a modified version of marshal law is acting as the law of Pakistan….
Now, As for the police offending soldiers, it is both possible and not in normal conditions. We are in such an area and situation that army (or military) has become our prime priority. If a police officer is honest and perform his duty very well, he will definitely put charges on military personnel if he breaks our national law. Other wise even students and ordinary people like me manage to take enough relaxation from policemen. So there is no special difference between a soldier and an average person in regard of treatment from police. Soldiers have well chance of saving them because they can also help policeman in return with some way or other, which a normal man may not afford to do so. Between a civilian(who is a powerful person) and a soldier, police will always do better favor for civilian though.
What is the succession plan for your chief economist?
Well I don’t know and neither do our Government.
Please ask from:
World Bank (http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/institutional/EFeedBk.nsf/MainTopic)
or,
IMF ([email=“[email protected]”]mailto: [email protected])
for details.
Who all know the codes and protocols to your satellite?
Every one related to or working in that field…Making such highly technical and important information public will just create problems though it is easy to find some basic information.
What are the biggest shipping infrastructure projects in your country?
Pakistan National Shipping Corporation (PNSC) dominates in this area, but it is over-employed and inefficient. We have some private shipping firms too but they are also not as effective. The privatization of PNSC will be perhaps the biggest project in this area since our existence. Talks about this are active, but might take some time for being effective. In sense of ports we have one at Karachi and one will be constructed in next few years at Gawader.
When will you have a judiciary?
From the day we will succeed in forming a true public government, a law reflecting people’s will. We have excellant persons available in courts but our law has many flaws in it and each and every Government just tries to stay in power for as long as possible. Many current members of our national assembly and senate may have no idea of what a Law is all about.
Re: Islamic or Secular State ?
jinnah didnt make pakistan an islamic state, jinnah made it for the muslims who lived in india, so they dont suffer from the hindus and he clearly stated pakistan will be a secular state.
jinnas vision is the same vision as what musharaf has now.