ISLAMIC LAW

SPOT ON

Before I respond to your below average post, let me ask you first. Why army is fighting with Taliban who wants Shariah Law in Pakistan? As regard to their suicidal bombings, when people and their faimilies are killed because of their ideology (how wrong it may be in your eyes), don’t expect they would shower you with flowers. To every action there is equal and opposite reaction. Does this ring some bells into your ears?

Coming back to your remark about how much Quaid was secular, read as follows and ask yourself a question why in the hell maulvis including your spiritual leader Maudoodi were so much against him? Do I have to provide that reference too?

Was Jinnah a Secularist

Only three days before Pakistan formally appeared on the world map, Jinnah, in his August 11, 1947 memorable speech to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan stated the principle on which the new state was to be founded: “You may belong to any religion or caste or creed – that has nothing to do with the business of the state … We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and citizens of one state… in the course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state”.

Had our leaders listened to our Quaid, Pakistan woudn’t be at this state.

Afsos sad afsos!

u r right that there is only 1 shariah............but unfortunately there r at least 7 different formal understandings of it.............and may b hundred and thousands of other interpretions............

There is no need to get angry. The purpose of these questions is to determine exactly what you are demanding. I am not condemning nor condoning your view point for the time being. First of all we must understand what you are actually asking.

So you are demanding a sharia system based on more or less American democratic system. This system has no example in the history and therefore must me invented. Or you may be demanding a western democratic system and call it sharia system for namesake. Your argument that the concept of Khalifa is closest to American democratic system is far from reality. Although Khulfa e Rashideen were nominated after some sort of collective consultation, but this consultation was amongst a few pious men only. Women, minorities, and common population had not been a part of that consultation process. While American democratic system is based on one man one vote, irrespective of gender, religion, faith, intelligence, piety etc. May be you should consider communist party system adopted by communist Russia being closer to Islamic sharia system as only members of communist party who were certified members of a certain philosophy could become part of the consultation process.

If you think American democratic system is the closest to Islamic system, please give one single example from the history.

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Mulla Omer and others should have let the society educate and train themselves on the basics of Quran and Sunnah and should have founded a society on these, they rather based their government on traditions and value of the region and took what ever suited them from Quran.
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My specific question was "what exactly Mullah Omar govt. was doing against sharia as explained in Quran and Sunnah. Afghani taliban were highly educated in Quran and Sunnah from some of the renowned religious leadrs of our times." Here you failed to answer my question specifically and accused them of selectively adopting sharia from Quran. Now I will put a supplementary question to you and hope you will care to answer my original question also.

Who will determine in a sharia system if the Khalifa is acting according to sharia?

The system of Holy Prophet PBUH cannot be adopted today as he had the luxury of divine guidance whenever required which is certainly not available today.

The system of Khulfa e Rashideen could also not be adopted after the demise of the immediate companions of the Holy Prophet PBUH as that calibre of human resource was simply not available.

Afghani Taliban with all sincerity wanted to adopt sharia system and choose a Khalifa Mullah Omar, and I have no doubt on their intentions. Now you say their Khalifa was not sharia compliant. Under these circumstances who is going to determine if the Khalifa is sharia compliant or not?

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Do you think Quran is Practical book any more

Do you think Islam is Practical after 1400 years

Do you think the acts of Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) are still worth to follow to have success in this world?
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These are typical blackmail tactics when so called religious scholars who cannot explain anything logically they start accusing people of denying Quran, Sunnah, and Holy Prophet PBUH. What I understand from these sources can be different from your understanding.

There is no unity of leadership in the Islamic world and I am sure you cannot deny this fact. Under these circusmstances who will determine which understanding is correct?

You have to answer these specific questions to understand your stance better. Right now your post is full of contradictions and confusions.

This incident and one more like can be found in more or less every book written on Islamic Sharia and Omer Bin Khatab ( RZA), but you can find this in these books as well

below i’ll even more strong refernces…

please check this out
Human Rights in Islam

The Sanctity and Security of Private Life Islam recognizes the right of every citizen of its state that there should be no undue interference or encroachment on the privacy of his life. The Holy Quran has laid down the injunction: “Do not spy on one another” (49:12). “Do not enter any houses except your own homes unless you are sure of their occupants’ consent” (24:27). The Prophet has gone to the extent of instructing his followers that a man should not enter even his own house suddenly or surreptitiously.

In the above link you will find things in detail

you made an id to just clarify the question of mindstorm… i wonder where he disappeared..

More questions!!!

Under Islamic Shariah, Hindu, Jews, Christians, non-believers and others enjoy their freedom and their security is responsibility of Muslim Govt. hence, Hindus, will have all the freedom they need to build temples and manufacture idols to worship.

Yes they can…

yes

yes, as long as it does not include nudity and vulgarity ( as many consider it freedom)

I guess i have replied, now if you can call the questioner to answer the questions.. if you connected to him

I wonder y all posts which goes against your ideas/theories seems below average to you, is this the democracy PPP looks forward to… anyway, that is you and that is your way of life, i have nothing to do with it..

I don’t know, if you read the post and reply or u just have an idea in ur mind and reply… Please read this now, i don’t know you can understand it or not.. Pakistan Army is fighting scum bags… who have threaten the life of innocent people of Pakistan, Pakistani Army is sacrificing are fighting to agents of evil. now i don’t know if you can think beyond this and understand me here…

My spiritual leader, when did you made this assumption??? I have only one spiritual leader and his Name is Sydena Mohammad (SAAW).. Moudoodi can be scholar or a person who had his good and bad side like any human do and his judegements are not divine nor does judgments of molvis… to whom anyone not following a particular sect is Kafir.. ( i think it would be difficult for you to comprehend this para, if it is PM me or write it here, i’ll try to explain it more)

Have you red the islamic shariah and other religions? i am just asking this simple question to answer on your above remark/paste…

So you believe in a liberal sharia where everyone can adopt sharia according to their understanding. Please quote some example from the Islamic history that this liberal sharia is actually the one which was practised by Holy Prophet PBUH or Khulfa e Rashideen.

Also please explain the contradiction in your post where after making the statement that there is only one sharia and then you already admitted shias have different sharia which needs to be treated seperately. I will go one step furthur that there are several sects in shaias and sunnis with different understanding of sharia. Should we adopt more than 70 sharias and treat all of them seperately. It is good that you are a tolerant human being who is sensitive to different sects and want to give them the freedom of choice to adopt their own sharia. But how will this system practically work?

As far as non muslims are cconcerned will you demand Jazya from them in your model of sharia? Remember Jazya or non muslim tax is prescribed in Quran in a sharia compliant society!

Well if you ask questions to gather information then it is your right, and if i ask question you instead of answering, simply try to take it somewhere else..

Please answer the questions otherwise there is no discussion

So let's be specific in our discussion.

I am not a denier of Islam, Holy Prophet PBUH, Sunnah, and Quran (I am excluding hadith from this list so don't quote anything from books written by people on the examples of Khalifa Rashideen. Keep your arguments within Quran and Sunnah). I believe these sources can be used for guidance even after 1400 years. How they can be used for guidance may or may not be according to your wishes, and I am speaking of my personal opinion only.

Now would you care to answer my questions specifically!

Let me clarify again that I am not condemning or condoning your view point for the time being. I am confused and unable to understand exactly what you are demanding!

I thought thats what I said...that there are various interpretations...

Am i getting angry?

what if i say that western democratic system is an extract from Shariah, like you said, western societies never had any electorate of board/institute.. it was pure monarchy, where as Islamic System ( Shariah) had all flavors in it...

Now one need to understand Islam first and then look into one-man one vote scenario, Islam have strongly emphasized on the education/awareness and have told all the Muslims to not to abuse power no matter how big or small the responsibility is... having understood this, a society comprised of majority with awareness on issues and are sensitive and are always dominated by Allah All- Mighty's fear, would select the right people, infact the right people will grow like crops, which will honor and respect others..

Communist Russian also have some resemblance with Islamic Shariah...

Both the western democratic and Russian communist system were the reaction of people deprived of their rights, people tired of monarchies.. Earlier in your western democracy no one but few were eligible to vote, it is only until now that women and others ( blacks) have got the right to vote... isn't it... Same should have been the case in Islam, in early days the closest and most pious among the men were chosen to head the state, ofcourse this might have evolved in a complete modern democracy where the people ( regardless their gender and ethinicity) would might have voted for the Khalifa...

Monarchy was the saddest part of Islamic history, the dynasties/family rules is against the teaching of Islam ( sadly almost all the islamic countries have same system and there are plenty of darbari ulema who have given them their acceptance against the wordly gains).

By Islamic Shariah most of people look forward to monarchy system where King is called Khalifah... which i strongly condemn...

There is no example from history for this, niether did i said that it evident from history, you want to learn how it is closest to Islamic System, you need to learn both... for instance, Islamic system is based on equallity of all, race, gender, ethinicity does not play any role for any title, he whoever is pious and competent have more right to be in power. ( i think you will understand that i am not saying these are the requirement of American system)

Thats why i asked you, Mullah Omer, had mixed the religion with his traditions, where the religion to tradition ratio was 20:80, First thing he did, he closed the doors of education on women by force, secondly in forcefully imposed many rules considering them essential part of shariah, which is again against Islam itself..

for instance, Pakistani football went to play a match, now the team was from Pakistan, they didn't belong their, and the Mulla Omer Regime shaved their heads for not having beard!!! forcing men to cover their heads, ban of photography and list goes on.

Being an Islamic govt, how can one have the control on the othes live!!! yes there should be laws to protect people but not to make them slaves.. this is strictly against Islamic System...

The people of the state, will determine that if Khalifa is acting according or against Sharia..

The Prophet (SAAW) was never meant to live in the world infintly nor any other human will live forever, but does that mean we should not follow the good things they taught us through divine guidance? or we should call it off-dated and look for new divne laws, hence creating another religion/system???

Agree, but the source to develop such humans are available, i still say that no man can match the qualites Those had, but least they can do is to try to follow their path..

Where did is said/accused you for denying quran or hadith, i think it typical of so-called intellects who gets angry the moment anyone ask them basic and simple question and they instead of providing simple and fair answer try to avoid the question.. why i don't know, but these very individuals never shy toa ask question..

I will one step back, therei is no leadership in Islamic world, yes there are some symbolic icons, acting as viceroy of western/foriegn powers...

The post will still felt full of contradiction as you may not have understanding of Islamic system unless and untill you clear you mind and then start looking for Islamic, then you might be able to ask the right question... unless you do this, you will be confused...

Just for your info, Islam nor does Islamic System support or appreciate any cult, may it be wahabi, shia aur sunni. Anyone claiming to implement Islamic system and at sametime having believe on Wahabi, Sunni or Shia sect is just playing aroung and/or selling relgion to get power...

Islam is one religion nor does the Prophet (SAAW) neither His Companions (RZA) belonged to any sect.

Well my dear, i want the same Shariah 100% same.. that was implemented 1400 years ago.. I don't think it was more than one..
Thats enough answer to cover all your questions..

1400 years ago indeed there was only one shariya becasue there was no sects...now there are 73 sects with different interpretations, practices and beliefs.

First of all these are not my words, it is the excerpt of speech by Quaid on Aug 11, 1947, hence you are asking this question to wrong person. In other words are you challenging Quaid that he did not know Islamic shariah and other religions?

How do you know that army is fighting with scumbags? It requires enough courage and energy to fight with regular army just for sake of ideology. It is not that easy as you have assumed. Unfortunately these scumbags have lots of support from local and non local population including indirect and moral support from JI, JuI, IK and NS.

Then what do you mean by saying that? you mean that is not applicable anymore?

Indeed they are Quaids word, but you are putting your thoughts of secularism using these words that why I have asked you this question

now will you please answer the question or you think that this question is also a conspiracy against the democracy and is supported by IK, NS, JUI, JI and MQM

These scumbags have JI, JUI, IK and NS support, you either dream alot or you are so dumb that you cannot think beyond you nose... these scumbag never stood their ground, in swat they could have resisted more, but they were on run from day one, In wazirstan story is bit different but still they are on run..
now i don't know which world you live in, please come back in reality and please try not to accuse people because yoy don't like them... this JIYALA type behaviour will get you no good...

@hanibal

Your views regarding a sharia system are more liberal than a person demanding secular system. What I understand from all what you have posted:

1) You want to have a system based on American democratic system, where there will be one man one vote irrespective of gender, piety, religion, and ethnicity. Khalifa will be answerable to people unlike Afghan taliban system where khalifa was all powerful answerable to no one.

2) Your system will give complete religious freedom do everyone. People will be free to follow whatever religion they like.

3) State will provide equal opportunities to everyone irrespective of their religion, piety and gender. Means a non muslim or a women will have equal opportunity to become Khalifa in your sharia as equality will be the basis of your sharia compliant state.

4) Everyone will have access to equal opportunities in the field of education. Every kind of education will be provided to everyone. People will be free to get relgious education according to their belief system and no particular religious education will be imposed on anyone.

5) State will not interfere in private lives of anyone as long as they don't disturb the society. Anyone drinking alchol at home without disturbing the society will be allowed to do so. Similarly what happens inside someone private life will not be the concern of the sharia compliant government. In short no one will not be punished for any sins which do not disturb the society.

6) People will be able to impeach the Khalifa if they think he is not sharia compliant based on all these points.

7) Under your Islamic Shariah state, Hindu, Jews, Christians, non-believers and others enjoy their freedom and their security is responsibility of Muslim Govt. hence, Hindus, will have all the freedom they need to build temples and manufacture idols to worship.

8) Any sort of music, paintings, entertainment, cinema, sports, cultural activity will be allowed as long as it is not vulgar. Definition of vulgarity will be according to the collective wisdom of the people and not dictated by some religious doctrine.

9) People will be able to dress, shave beards, and indulge freelu in any kind of fashion as they desire provided it is not vulgar, and again the definition of vulgarity will not be according to the opinion of a single person but rather dependant on collective wisdom of the people.

You agree with all above mentioned points and adopt system based on all these above mentioned points and call it a sharia system. As a secular person I pledge 100% support to you that please go ahead with this kind of sharia system. The only thing is take this list to any relgious aalim, mufti, maulana, or zakir. Please get it endorsed from him that this is actually sharia system. I think every secular person in this world irrespective of gender or religion will rally behind such a maulana to get this kind of shariat implemented.

So you have your wish granted for a support of sharia system. The only thing needed is to get this list endorsed from one single and I repeat one single religious personality that whatever you are advocating is actually sharia. Please post the name of this maulana here and I don't think anyone will oppose the implementation of such a sharia system!!!

You have a simple task. You need just one endorsement!

Current Constitution implements the Sharai Laws already....at least the ones which are common...some may need amendment...some may need removing...

I am not against the Shariah Law...I am against the way it is being dicussed that this is the only way out....Everyone says we live in Islamic Republic of Pakistan which obviously does include some Sharai laws already...when you talk about running a country by Sharia Law then I can only imagine one scenario = Afghanistan....you can only grab which is common to everyone and implement in current system.

When I discuses about islam, I usually like to refer to only holy quran and sahih ahadith. If U like my way, than plz give some authentic Islamic reference rather than talking about any book written by human beings.

p
[QUOTE]
lease check this out

The Sanctity and Security of Private Life Islam recognizes the right of every citizen of its state that there should be no undue interference or encroachment on the privacy of his life. The Holy Quran has laid down the injunction: "Do not spy on one another" (49:12). "Do not enter any houses except your own homes unless you are sure of their occupants' consent" (24:27). The Prophet has gone to the extent of instructing his followers that a man should not enter even his own house suddenly or surreptitiously.

In the above link you will find things in detail
[/QUOTE]
I have checked ur link above, but I m not sure whether this answers the question which was presented to U. for ur convinience I repeat that again.

[QUOTE]
In your model of a sharia state, will the state have rights to interfere in private lives? For instance will state control what we see on tv, how we dress, women wearing burqas in public, what should be the length of one's beard etc. etc. This was implemented by taliban in Afghanistan? If you don't agree with this style of sharia please prove to us specifically why these things are wrong and should not be implemented by the state according to sharia compliant state?
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The question is will the shariyah government control how we dress? willl pakistani women be allowed to dress in the way they are dressing themselves now? Its not only about privacy or entering anyone's home or simply spying on others.

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you made an id to just clarify the question of mindstorm... i wonder where he disappeared..
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Instead of speculating I will request U to kindly answer the questions. Why I made this id or where someone has disappeared should be none of the business of this forum rather some genuine questions to make this discussion useful should be.

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Under Islamic Shariah, Hindu, Jews, Christians, non-believers and others enjoy their freedom and their security is responsibility of Muslim Govt. hence, Hindus, will have all the freedom they need to build temples and manufacture idols to worship.

[/QUOTE]
I m afraid U are wrong. If U consider urself an Alim than its okay, if U dont than plz consult one regarding building new places of worship. I dont think that ALLAH'S laws gives anyone permission to build any place of worship except a Mosque. This happens in kuffar governments only that everyone is free to build his or her place of worship.

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Yes they can...
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I m afraid U are again wrong. Shias have terrible differences with Hazrat Abu Bakr RA and Hazrat Umar RA. Plz confirm that anyone who wont recognize these two prominent sahabis will have right to live peacefully in shariyah ruled state.

Is this wrong that in Iran these two sahabis are slandered regularly in religious congregations?

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yes
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Plz give some reference from holy quran or ahadith to prove ur point that women will be allowed to take part in politics in shariyah ruled state.

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yes, as long as it does not include nudity and vulgarity ( as many consider it freedom)
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I m again afraid that U are wrong. ALLAH has clearly ordered women not to show their beauty anyone except their mahram. And U are trying to prove that shariyah government will allow women to display their picture on public forums? And MashAllah the picture displayed on this forum are perfect piece of modesty. Nudity or vulgarity is out of question. Still I very much doubt that shariyah ruled state will allow this to happen.

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I guess i have replied, now if you can call the questioner to answer the questions.. if you connected to him

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U like to have fun, thats really good.