gone
If you are an agnostic, then why do you want to change Islam?
n
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, when you say that Islam is a threat to liberal democratic values. Its not Islam which is a threat, its the interpretation of Islam, which may threaten these values. In which case, I think you have to be more specific and explain, exactly what the values you are discussing are, so other posters here can either refute you or agree with your position. Because it is often the case that Islam (theologically speaking) is completely in line with what is often termed "liberal" and "democratic", yet in practice it seems otherwise.
In terms of polygamy, I agree with you, it should be made against the law. In terms of prayer, I know of few countries (actually I can only think of one possible country) which enforces prayer on its citizens. So I think the question of prayer is irrelevant, as it is not a threat to "society" - in most countries it is the choice of the individual to pray or not (completely in line with your "liberal democratic values").
Finally Islam is not a mono-lithic religion, as you have so aptly labelled it. Islam is a diverse religion with a wide range of interpretations and sects. The fact that you belong to a minority sect of believers, who claims to be Muslim, signifies this well enough. Islam does not need to "borrow" the principles of non-violence from other Eastern religions, because they already exist in the pages of the Qur'an.
Hi NYAhmedi
I dont know what Agnostice is and in reality I dont even wanna know.
As a Muslim I have an obligation to invite you towards reality, so my friend ( and I am not being sarcastic) We 've been created by Almighty Allah, and we are sent to this world for a very short period of time for the test of Imman (faith).
For our guaidance a chain of Prophets has been established since day one. starting from Adam (Alaih Salam) to the final prophet Mohammad (SallulaOalaiewasalam).
The message is clear WE HAVE TO PASS THE TEST OF TRUE FAITH or we will face the consequances in the next life, believe me we are so weak that we cant survive if there is power failure, cant take bath with cold water, cant stay hungry for more than day. All the rewards and chastisment of the next life are permanent, will never end.
So be wise and believe in the message of all the prophets and that is "La illaha ilula Mohamadur rasool allah" close translation is: Their is no one worthy of worship and Mohammad (PBUH) is his messanger. I will finish by explaing what I ment by the test of faith. Allah is the doer of everything and creation cannot do anyting withouth the help of Allah and success lies only in the ways of Mohammad (Sallula ho alieheywasalm) and all the other ways lead to failure.
If we understood this very clearly and show the with our conduct than we are Successfull in this world as well hereafter and if we failed in this understanding than permanent failure would be our destiny, May Allah save all of Us specially whole Ummat of prophet Mohammad (PBUH).
Mir
I hope you agree with me or atleast believe that Islam is not a man-made religion. If you think God (Allah) Superior Being created this religion than on philosophical base, you have no choice but to accept it with all of its rules and regulations. But if you think that Prophet Mohammad somehow made this thing (Islam) and you consider him to be less than perfect than yes you are technically allowed to make alterations as to the guidelines of Islam.
On logical note, Once you agreed that there is God(Almighty, Superior in every sense)than there is no choice of rules, you have to follow what He has constructed to you in the form of "Islam".
As for your objections to certain acts/ruling in Islam, I would suggest a more thorough reading from different (neutral) perspective to see the broadness of the nature of Islam. Islam is the religion of logic and nature. There is nothing in Islam which contradicts nature.
yeah
All you Mr Mirza followers are the same, argument after another fancy argument. You guys like to talk, debate and showoff. All your intelectuall ideas and wishfull believes will turn into dust when you gonna see your creator with your very own eyes, and that will happen soon, sooner than our anticipation.
My duty as a muslim is to present to you the correct MESSAGE now its up to you, reject or accept. Hey its your choice.
GoodLuck any way
Mir
Mr. NY A
A very good answer was given by brother Mir and Imranz, when you enter Islam, there is no choice but to follow and to submit completely. And rejecting any part of it will make you a disbeliever.
But, as you said that that is not your question, If you do not believe in Allah SWT then there is absolutely no use of telling you what is the importance of any of the rules of Islam.ie. why Islam does not allows women to lead prayers and etc.
The basic believe of Muslim is believe in Allah SWT. That there is Allah, God, Who created the whole universe, Who is One and has no partners. Who has all the powers, Who knows all, Who does what HE wishes. Who was neither born and will not die.
So, my advice to you is to watch the universe around you and think whether it can be created by an accident. Try to find out who is controlling the whole show. Try to find out Allah, the God, the Lord, the Creator. There is no use of anybody telling you anything about Islam because to me if you don't believe in your Creator, i.e. God, you do not deserve to be called a human being. Islam and ruling about women not leading the prayers is far. When you have complete believe in your Creator than there is no question of doubting / rejecting His words.
NYAhmadi wrote: "just one example of Islam being non-democratic."
You cited the example of women, who under the dictates of Islam, are unable to lead a congregation in prayer. You believe this practice is an example of non-democratic principles in Muslim societies. This would be completely true if we "assumed" that our sisters in Islam, truely wished to lead prayer. Depending on your definition of democracy, you may either need a clear majority supporting a change in the female role as a leader of prayer, or perhaps even a unanimous vote. I think its highly unlikely that you would even get a marginal minority of Muslim women who wish to change roles with males and lead a congregation in prayer.
You maybe completely right in your ascertation (Islam threatens society), but I think the example you provided here is a weak one, maybe you have another?
na
Nyahmadi,
Islam is not a religion, read my post "Islam is a Spiritual and Political Ideology"
Of course Islam is undemocratic, but you failed to say and prove why that is wrong and I know that you will never be able to prove that democracy is better than the rule of Islam. Are you willing to discuss? and before you claim anything about Islam provide proofs and reasons why you came to that conclusion because anyone can claim this and that about Islam like you have in your post.
Mr. NYahmedi
I told you before, if you do not have believe in God, you can never understand Islam, because the basic / fundamental aspect of Islam is Believe in Allah SWT.
As muslims we believe in Quran and believe that Quran is the book of God / Allah SWT and we also believe that Allah SWT is the ultimate source of knowledge and He surely knows all. So if He has prohibited us from something we consider it Haram and if He allows something we consider it Halal because we know not and HE knows all.
So if the response is "what I consider is true because I say so, Prophet says so, God says so, XXX says so" or whatever and not based on logic, there is little room left for further discussion.
NYAhmadi,
The article below is one point of view on Islam, democracy etc. But this dicussion in general goes a lot deeper than what you consider democracy or what books you have read propagting certain values, systems, spirituality etc. It is all to do with what is the truth and your where soul is going, your right spirituality exists in many forms but you have to question what it is that you are being spiritual about. Is it the truth? Or does it not matter? I also think Imranz has addressed a few issues which set your question in context and stop this debate going round in circles.
The principles of universal brotherhood and doctrine of the equality of mankind which he proclaimed represents one very great cont ribution of Mohammad to the social uplift of humanity. All great religions have preached the same doctrine but the prophet of Islam had put this theory into actual practice and its value will be fully recognized, perhaps centuries hence, when international consciousness being awakened, racial prejudices may disappear and greater brotherhood of humanity come into existence.
Miss. Sarojini Naidu speaking about this aspect of Islam says,
"It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for in the mosque, when the minaret is sounded and the worshipers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam
is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, God alone is great." The great poetess of India continues, "I have been struck over and
over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian and Indian and a Turk in London, it matters not that Egypt is the motherland of one and India is the motherland of another."
Mahatma Gandhi, in his inimitable style, says "Some one has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam-
Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood.
The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They
may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded."
Every year, during the Haj, the world witnesses the wonderful
spectacle of this international Exhibition of Islam in
leveling all distinctions of race, color and rank. Not only
the Europeans, the African, the Arabian, the Persian, the
Indians, the Chinese all meet together in Medina as members of
one divine family, but they are clad in one dress every person
in two simple pieces of white seamless cloth, one piece round
the loin the other piece over the shoulders, bare head without pomp or ceremony, repeating "Here am I O God; at thy command;
thou art one and alone; Here am I." Thus there remains nothing
to differentiate the high from the low and every pilgrim
carries home the impression of the international significance of Islam.
In the opinion of Prof. Hurgronje "the league of nations
founded by prophet of Islam put the principle of international
unity of human brotherhood on such Universal foundations as to
show candle to other nations." In the words of same Professor
"the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel
to what Islam has done the realization of the idea of the
League of Nations."
The prophet of Islam brought the reign of democracy in its best form. The Caliph Caliph Ali and the son in-law of the prophet, the Caliph Mansur, Abbas, the son of Caliph Mamun and many other caliphs and kings had to appear before the judge as ordinary men in Islamic courts. Even today we all know how the black Negroes were treated by the civilized white races.
Consider the state of BILAL, a Negro Slave, in the days of the
prophet of Islam nearly 14 centuries ago. The office of
calling Muslims to prayer was considered to be of status in
the early days of Islam and it was offered to this Negro
slave. After the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet ordered him to
call for prayer and the Negro slave, with his black color and
his thick lips, stood over the roof of the holy mosque at
Mecca called the Ka'ba the most historic and the holiest mosque in the Islamic world, when some proud Arabs painfully cried loud, "Oh, this black Negro Slave, woe be to him. He stands on the roof of holy Ka'ba to call for prayer." At that moment, the prophet announced to the world, this verse of the holy QURAN for the first time.
"O mankind, surely we have created you, families and tribes, so you may know one another.
Surely, the most honorable of you with God is MOST RIGHTEOUS AMONG you.
Surely, God is Knowing, Aware."
And these words of the holy Quran created such a mighty
transformation that the Caliph of Islam, the purest of Arabs
by birth, offered their daughter in marriage to this Negro
Slave. What a tremendous change was brought by Quran in the Arabs,
the proudest people at that time on the earth. This is the reason
why Goethe, the greatest of German poets, speaking about the
Holy Quran declared that, "This book will go on exercising
through all ages a most potent influence." This is also the reason why George Bernard Shaw says, "If any religion has a chance or ruling over England, say, Europe, within the next 100 years, it is Islam".
It is this same democratic spirit of Islam that emancipated women from the bondage of man. Sir Charles Edward Archibald Hamilton says "Islam teaches the inherent sinlessness of man.
It teaches that man and woman have come from the same essence, posses the same soul and have been equipped with equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual and moral
attainments."
The Arabs had a very strong tradition that one who can smite
with the spear and can wield the sword would inherit. But
Islam came as the defender of the weaker sex and entitled
women to share the inheritance of their parents. It gave
women, centuries ago right of owning property, yet it was only
12 centuries later , in 1881, that England, supposed to be the
cradle of democracy adopted this institution of Islam and the
act was called "the married woman act", but centuries earlier,
the Prophet of Islam had proclaimed that "Woman are twin halves of men. The rights of women are sacred. See that women maintained rights granted to them."
Islam is not directly concerned with political and economic systems, but indirectly and in so far as political and economic affairs influence man's conduct, it does lay down some very important principles to govern economic life.
According to Prof. Massignon, it maintains the balance between exaggerated opposites and has always in view the building of character which is the basis of civilization. This is secured by its law of inheritance, by an organized system of charity known as Zakat, and by regarding as illegal all anti-social practices in the economic field like monopoly, usury, securing of predetermined unearned income and increments, cornering markets, creating monopolies, creating an artificial scarcity of any commodity in order to force the prices to rise.
Gambling is illegal. Contribution to schools, to places of
worship, hospitals, digging of wells, opening of orphanages
are highest acts of virtue. Orphanages have sprung for the
first time, it is said, under the teaching of the prophet of
Islam. The world owes its orphanages to this prophet born an
orphan. "Good all this" says Carlyle about Mohammad. "The natural voice of humanity, of pity and equity, dwelling in the heart of this wild son of nature, speaks."
Ah.. how amusing! Propogadists of Islam taking recommendation letters from 'uncivilized, cow worshipping, **** drinking Hindus' like Gandhi and Naidu.
OK! So if Islam has some good principles like brotherhood, take it and some undesirable ones like woman's testmony being 1/4th of man, reject it. Isn't this a right approach?
NyAhmadi, I agree with Br. Abdullah. Anyway, about your original post, here's my opinion: first of all, about polygamy, you said that it should be abandonned. It depends what you mean by abandonning it. You can mean that we stop practicing it by CHOICE, which is fine. What we can't do is to make it illegal in Islam. You might try, but you cannot forbid that which God made permissible. Also, about the prayers five times a day, well it's not a need as such, but an order. If you tried to modify Islam, then you'd end up with some other religion.
If something could be changed, then you would need at least the authority who made the rules, or a higher authority to change these rules. But since there is no authority equal to or greater than God, then you can't have anything changed, since Islam has been finallized.
Also, you are wrong about women being worth 1/4 of a man as a witness. Islam considers one women as much as half a man as a witness. You can't really compare the western legal system and that of Islam.
Also, it is illogical for a religion to be completely democratic. We can choose certain in certain matters, but there are other matters where we can't. If Allah has said we have to do something, then we have to, no matter how many people want it to be different. A woman can never lead prayer in a congregation of men. But if we made the rules according to how a majority wants it, then it wouldn't be a religion in the first place. Islam is a religion given to us by God, and we must follow it the way HE wants us to. If HE said men can have four wives, but one husband for every woman, then that's the way it is, period.
The only place that I kind of agree with you might be the part about the punishment of criminals. Maybe we can't apply them today, but not because they are wrong or outdated, but is us who wouldn't be able to do it properly.
PG, if we say that we believe such and such thing because Allah said so, or the Prophet(S.A.W.) said so is logical, if you believe that Allah is the Creator and Master of everything and that the Prophet(S.A.W.) was his messenger and conveyed Allah's orders to us.
The real problem are the people. What we have in abundance unfortunately are pseudo drawing room intellectuals. They wish to tell us again and again that Islam is a "complete Way of life and it must penetrate all aspects of life and goverment". These people may feel cute wearing a clean kurta and talking about "The Need of Islam in Goverment" But have no idea about the dangers of its implimentation. I can assure you that though some of them may blindly endorse Sharia Law they would faint at the sight of a man loosing his hand.
Best example was Taliban. Every Islamic Traditionalist in Pakistan wrote highly about the Taliban when they were gaining ground. Every one spoke about their Islamic dicipline. Now when they have taken Kabul our Islamic Scholars are silent. Ofcourse now comes the imediate rationalization from the Islamic apologist.
"Taliban is not following the correct Shariah"
This whole episode summarizes our problem.
Stage1. Pseudo Intellectuals suport fanatic illterates for Sharia.
Stage2. Sharia is implimented.
Stage3. Women loose basic rights.
Stage4. Public Uproar.
Stage5. Islamic Traditionalists who had suported the Sharia Initialy will now say
" This is not the true Islamic way".
The suport of Sharia in the mind of the pseudo intellectual is a mixture of fear and the need for Security. By endorsing Laws that seem completely out of date and harsh they still feel secure in their so called "Complete Submission To God's Law."
Lets stop playing mental games with ourselves. Equal oportunity and A modern society are not compatible with Classical Shariah Law.
I for one will not compromise my compassion for quenching feelings of guilt.
Stud
PG, Stud and NYAhmedi
Just one question, are you saying what is written in Quran is not correct ?
I don't know why we are all out to prove that Islam is democratic. I believe that it is NOT. Why should we be striving to make Islam agree to western 'democratic' values?
First, what is democracy?
Rule by the people, of the people, by the people. In other words, the people make the laws and then implement them. Islam is clearly NOT a democracy, and I'm proud to say so. In a democracy, the majority of people can vote to make child abuse, hard drugs, prostitution, etc. legal - should that be allowed even in principle?
A true democracy can never exist - even in the 'so-called' democratic country, the UK, there are three parts to the governmental system - the monarchy, the house of lords and the house of commons. The first two are hereditary and the third is elected, but once MPs are elected in office, they vote whichever way they wish - a true democracy would require a referendum for each bill of parliament.
The only common aspect between democracy and Islam is that the leader (Khalif) is to be elected into office, but once he is elected he must rule by the Quran and Sunnah - not by his own whims and desires, and not by the fancies of the majority of the population.
Democracy is no where near comparable to Islam.