ISLAM THREATENS SOCIETY CONTINUED.......

Sorry for starting another thread, I could not post a reply for some reason.

I have to agree with a lot of what Achtung has said in his posts, it is also important to question and verify how the Islam we all know today has come about.
In the time of Mu’awiya’s rule (661-680) until the the 2nd century Hijrah (when the Hadith were officially compiled) the hadith had become a medium of stories and instrument for various political factions and theological sects to support their sectarian positions. In order to stop the continued fabrication of the hadith and contain futrther divisions of Muslim society at the time, there arose a movement to fix the sources of law in Islam and to standardise the hadith.
This is the main social determinant which gave rise to the major jurisprudential figure in Islam in the person of Shafi’i. He laid down the bases of Islamic classical jurisprudence with his theory that the sources of Islamic law were the Quran, the Hadith, Ijma’ or consensus of religious scholars, and Qiyas or analogy.
With the acceptance of Shafi’i’s jurisprudential theory where the hadith was given a position of almost equal importance with the Quran (the formula is “second primary source”), the use of creative thought
or ijtihad for all practical purposes was abolished. This came to be known later as ‘the closing of the door of ijtihad’ and the beginning of the regime of taqlid or blind imitation of the great masters.

Shafi’s idea of ‘Ijma’ was that of a formal and a total one: he demanded an agreement which left no room for disagreement. This very different to the idea of Ijma from the early schools, for them Ijma was not an imposed or manufactured static fact but anongoing democratic process; it was not a formal state but an informal natural growth which at each step tolerates and, indeed, demands fresh and new thought and therefore must live not only with but also upon a certain amount of disagreement. We must exercise Ijtihad, they contended, and progressively the area of agreement would widen; the remaining questions must be turned over to fresh Ijtihad or Qiyas so that a new Ijma could be arrived at. But it is precisely the living organic relationship between Ijtihad and Ijma that was severed in the successful formulation of al-Shafi’i. Al-Shafi’i’s genius provided a mechanism that gave stability to our medieval socio-religious fabric but at the cost, in the long run, of creativity and originality.
Shafi’i came to the view that all opinions existing at that time would be acceptable, but nothing more than that - no new thinking could be allowed. The status quo would be set in stone with no possibility of new participants. Thus the idea of ijma first and ijtihad later was crystallized and given an official authority. Conformity became the norm. This was followed by the passivity and blind obedience that had to be fostered to maintain this conformity. The conformity and the passivity soon fused together to breed the pessimism and the fatalism which is a natural result of dead intellect. This came to be the character of the majority of Muslims, this is a typical of the kind of people Achtung mentioned who would denounce you if you question anything on this matter.
The Quran is the Word of God and contains the Truth. It is a book of guidance for mankind designed to take them out from the realm of darkness into the realm of light, from falsehood into truth, from injustice into justice and from slavery into freedom (intelectual as well as physical). There is only one truth that all muslims are certain of and that is the Quran, we must question and verify everything else asscociated with Islam to discover the truth. This is not to reject all hadith or teachings but to judge them in a scientific and logical manner. Do we want to come out of the darkness or are we happy with the status quo?

and well, if someone does think islam is dificult and strict, why exactly does he have to follow it?
why not leave it altogether rather than messing up with it?

Assalam Alaikum

Camille

I can't understand why you keep on trying to insist that Islam is democratic.

PG,

Muslims have never said that it is only the planet Earth that is inhabited. For us to say that we would need evidence which we don't have. Maybe it is maybe it isn't.

Out of the list you made, which one are you?

The only way to come out of darkenss is to reject completely the role of relegion in goverment.

Stud

Jewels,

I don't think Islam is difficult or too strict at all. It's a religion of moderation and simplicity, like anything else - read and follow the instructions carefully and there is no problem!

The question in not about 'messing up' anything really, its more about discovering the truth (i.e the Quran) and to determine and verify all the beliefs that have been associated with Islam and subject them to the teachings in the Quran.

Who knows we may be able to discover who has really been MESSING about with Islam?

Mudasser,

I was just pointing out a few historical facts, I don't honestly know if Islam is democratic or not. But I don't think you can compare Islam to any other ideology
anyway. Word of God verses deomocracy? - I don't think so!

nanan

jj

NYAhmedi : Your knowledge of Islam is heresay. You are exactly where the west wants a muslim. Yellow journalism is what you read about Islam.

Be aware that death lurks around the corner for everyone. It will be very easy to ignore my statements but remember this,
when death comes around and stands right in front of you and Allah asks you about these things, will you say that i did not choose to follow certain things in the Quran you sent cause, really, it did not fit well in the western society you put me in. That answer or any other negating the Quran - the word of Allah, my friend, will not be acceptable because you are trying to prove Allah wrong - Tobah Na-Auozo-Billah. Follow Quran to the TEE and enlighten your life and yourself.

Later on
Zman

jj

NY Ahmedi

I would just like to tell you the meaning of word "Islam". Islam means submission, submitting all your desires, wishes and wills to Allah SWT's will. That you don't do what you want to do, but you do what Allah SWT likes you to do. Now of course there is no democracy in that. Because democracy means freedom and free will but in Islam a Muslim does not have a free will. He cannot go beyond the limits, so you are right that Islam is not a supporter of democracy.

Even while selecting a Head of a state, the Islamic way is to select the person who is most suitable for the position, and not the person who get most of the votes. The way in which Hazrat Abu Bakr RAA, Hazrat Umer RAA, Hazrat Usman RAA and Hazrat Ali RAA were selected, there was no elections. So you are right, democracy is not there.

The problem with people in the west is that they have started thinking themselves better than Allah SWT. They think that Quran is just a book like other books and need not be correct. They think that naozobillah Allah SWT can be wrong and naozobilla we can prove Him wrong. They think that the punishment Allah SWT has decided on sex outside marriage is naozobilla wrong. They think that naozobilla Allah SWT has not done the justice with women. If you think so then discuss it with Allah SWT, why with us, we did not make these rules.

For this, I will repeat brother zman's statement that just wait and everything will be clear. He is very much right to tell you about death, because even in Quran Allah SWT tells us about the right and wrong and then announces the rewards and punishments after death, so he is doing the right thing. When on the day of judgement Allah SWT asks you why you did not follow my book and went against it? then at that time what will you say ???? Will you say that YOU (Allah SWT) are wrong ? Your book is not correct ??. Will you say that to Allah SWT????????????

Assalam Alaikum

Stud,

I could also have easily said, in order to come out of the darkness Islam must be fully implemented. I can provide reasons for my ideas, where are yours?

Camille,

Islam is not democratic because democracy is popular sovereignty and in Islam sovereignty belongs to Allah (S.W.T.) check out www.khilafah.com for more info.

NYAhmadi,

You asked a question and I answered it but I put a question to you and you completely ignored it.

I'll ask you again

What is wrong with Islam not being democratic?

Camille I could hug you - I completely agree with your sentiments, you took the words right out of my mouth! A very well written post. Keep struggling...

;)

mm

NY Ahmadi

kindly read again what Abdullah has said, it is not what you want from your religion, in this case Islam, but what religion wants from you.

And why you have to sell Islam to west??? Islam has its own set rules for its preaching and it is never to be enforced on non-muslims. As a muslim your job is only to tell the facts of islam and rest is upto them whether to accept or reject it. Your's duty as a Muslim is finished as soon as you do it.

Camille
Very nice...thankyou.

NYAhmadi : Dude, after reading your last post , I know for sure that you want to be accepted by the west and you will, I repeat, YOU WILL change anything in Islam just so that the west accepts it. Its like this dude, you have to accept Islam for what it is and you cant pick and choose things out of its philosophy. Your problem is that you believe in the "Mullah Islam" and my advice is to stay away from the mullah Islam for it will surely lead you astray. Read the Quran, namaz and understand it to bring it into your heart and trust me it will be the most liberating experience for you.

Later on
Zman

Well put zman......

nn

NYAhmadi : I can see this turning into one of the never ending threads where people argue with each other just for the sake of arguing. As a friend on the NET I would ask you to find Ulema's / Islamic scholars and ask them your questions for I am not qualified to do what they could explain to you.

I totally agree with you that one needs to ask questions for a better understanding of ones religion; "seek and ye shall find". As for me, I try to follow islam as best I can and I know that Allah(SWT) will give me the anwers as I make my journey through this life - Ameen.

Later on
Zman

NYAhmadi,

I see that you're using words like "strict" and "backward" to describe Islam.

By your definition the Islamic society was a civilised society and these secular democratic countries where people cant keep beards or wear hijab or even speak, learn or teach their own language ( the kurds in turkey ) are uncivilised.

But I don't agree with your definition of a civilised society I think that Spiritual excellence is the mark of a civilised society.

You made the following points,

To tell women, that their voice is only half as good as a man's;

Interesting how you started the argument off with 1/4 witness. Why is this wrong? You're just writing down which seem bad to you but you cannot prove that this is bad. You're doing exactly what you're accusing us Muslims of doing. You say something is bad because you think it's bad and we say something is bad because Allah (S.W.T.) Has told us is bad.

to impose strict backward laws not suited for this time in age;

Aren't we still humans?

to tell people that whatever outside of this religion you do is wrong;

and telling people everything outside of democracy is wrong is ok?

to tell people you cannot elect a leader by vote (one vote per person);

Actually the election process in Islam is practically the same as the election process in a democratic system. Why do you think that some Muslims claim that Islam is democratic.

to tell people that Homosexuality is a sin.

The argument against homosexuality is that all humans have instincts and the three main instincts are the spiritual, sexual and survival instincts.

Humans will do anything to satisfy these instincts i.e.

spiritual - idols, fire, sun, moon etc

survival - cannibalism, anything etc

sexual - paedophiles, homosexuals, animals, objects, etc

who is to decide how to satisfy our instincts? It can only be the Creator who has created our instincts. Why are paedophiles wrong and homosexuals right?

The answer comes down to the fact that there is a Creator since nothing happens by chance and the Creator created us to serve Him. The Qur'an is the word of Allah (S.W.T.) sent to us through the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) and it is only Allah (S.W.T.) who can know or decide whether something is right or wrong.