Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
to psyah:
I had written a complete massive reply to you but all of it just got deleted(power failure, UPS battery down). So don't mistake me if my answers are not as lengthy as was required.
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I do not intend to guide you, because I do not believe that I can guide you. However, it is my responsibility to clarify the misconceptions that you may have, explain the things as I have understood them in a wise manner and prevent lies to be propagated by presenting the alternative views. In fact the Qur’an itself testifies and I cannot emphasise this more that people will be guided and misguided by the Qur’an. It does not admit defeat nor is it saying that it has faults, rather it clearly caters for the response type taken by me and you, it is all encompassing and though you may find things to ridicule and provide reason to yourself to denounce when analysed with honesty the same things are evidence for the contrary. You will find things that cannot be proven either way to support our reason to denounce the Qur’an. Let’s see if this is in fact true.
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Basically you are saying that quran guides some people and miguides some according to the wishes of allah. Any person whose mind isn't blurred by religious beliefs can see the absurdity of this statement( I am sorry I am being harsh but this is completely ridiculous)
Secondly, let me tell you that I never asked for your "guidance". i challenged Quran's extravagant claims, and in opening this thread I thought you had taken up the challenge to defend the Quran. This has got nothing to do with clarifying misconceptions. this is not a student-teacher dialogue, where a student absolutely believes the teacher but merely raises his "doubts"- that is, implying that he hasn't clearly understood and the master knows best. Rather, this is a clash of conflicting opinions. I justify one and you justify the other.
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I am having trouble making sense of you verbosity here; however, I feel I agree with the idea that reasoning destroys myths.
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I am glad you agree.
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Therefore I am reasoning with you that humans are actually INCAPABLE of not believing in the unseen. They will believe somewhere some place a belief will set in and that belief will be founded on a limit beyond which only analogy, metaphor, reflection and the say so of others will suffice. Even the most staunchest of atheists will have a belief and that belief will be driven not necessarily by what is factual but a sort of reasoning will be employed that most likely skirts around a bias basis. People who are philosophic will reach beyond the capabilities of the mere rational because they will strive to reach truth rather than fact.
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All truths are facts.
all facts are truths.
Humans are perfectly capable of not believing in the unseen without proofs, thank you very much. Some people, have their opinions about things- some may believe in Quantum Mechanics and some in Relativity. This belief however is VERY DIFFERENT from religious belief. These are just opinions. Some people may feel that caffeine causes headache9just an example). If a scientific research shows otherwise, then they change thier opinion. I am at loss to find a similarity with this and religious beliefs.
Religion need not be about seeking truth, rather it is about seeking God, but if it is the true religion it needs to stand up to philosophical constructs rather than the factual ones. Fact is based on what is objective and most of belief is in a domain that should begin with objective evidence but sometimes even objectivity is not enough to convince some people of truth. Therefore it falls back on the absolute statement that there is nothing we can do to ‘guide’ people rather that guidance can only come from God. This statement is a philosophical truism.
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You say firstly that you made an assumption. An assumption is fixing the argument so it suits your end result. There are other things that need to be entertained to do this subject justice
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Reasoning is always in the form "Given a is true, B is true." An assumption is always necessary to get to a conclusion.
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Let’s assume your assumption is true. That humans try to survive. The questions to ask are why? Is it because it is innate in their natures? Is it because they ‘feel’ they should do, due to some external influence?
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let us assume that a baby is born in complete isolation. if a muderer comes and tries to kill it, will the baby not cry? This proves that will to survive is innate and not caused by external influences.
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Let’s see … from a young age children do very dangerous things that can harm them, though they have no idea of survival their parents do indeed protect them. So from this observation humans wish their young to survive. But so far the children themselves seem not to have a directly sensed purpose to survive.
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I am sorry psyah, but I expected much more from you. A child does a lot of dangerous things, because it is not aware of the dangers,. Commonsense, no? You telling me that children have no will to survive? They love injections?
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Then we have to look at all the people who kill themselves and all the people who wage wars. It seems the need to survive is laced with layers of complexity which on the level of reasoning is counter-intuitive. People will kill to keep other people alive.
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People commit suicide when they have lost hope completely and are extremely depressed. Here extreme depression counters the human will to survive. if it overpowers, then the person commits suicide. Given a choice between a "pleasant" life and death, don't you think they would choose life? this is obviously because there is no depression then nothing to counter the will to survive. this proves that the will to survive always exists.
As for wars, animals wage wars for food and fmales. food is necessary for survival and a bachelor's life must be difficult. Humans wage wars to protect themselves. i both these cases, the living being risks its own life to make its(and its loved ones) life more eaningful. Again, this shows the human will to survive.