Islam first or Humanity?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

All the supporters of Islamic fundamentalism and well wishers of Taliban and so forth seem to be posting conspiracy theories everywhere and trying to prove that OBL is innocent but none of them seems to be concerned or sorry for loss of so many humans in New York. Is it hypocritical?

In last friday prayer, Imam prayed for protection of Muslims in USA and for muslims in Afghanistan being innnocent. Could he not pray for innocent human beings who died in NEW York???
Did any other gupshup member observed same hypocritical behaviour?

Doe Islam tell muslims to love only muslims or humans in general? Is loss of life of a non muslim totally unimportant?

2

I don't think that behaviour is hypocritical, I think its natural.

I mean don't we always reach out to the ones that are closest to us first, then look to the others? I mean the life of a relative might seem more precious to you than the life of a stranger, i'm not saying thats right necessarily. I'm just asking you to look at this in perspective.

Just because at one mosque, one Imam, in one instance, prayed for the safety of muslims in the world, yet failed to mention the lives lost in new york, and washington d.c., shouldn't be taken as a reflection on all muslims, or as on islam itself, neither on that imam.

Across N.America, various Muslim organizations took out full page ads, in local and national newspapers at considerable expense to theirselves expressing their sorrow and condolences. Many muslims attended interfaith memorial gatherings, and held press conferences as a means of extending their support to the victims and their families. I could go on, but my point is that, I find it hypocritical that you base your assumptions on such one-sided instances.

3

Most similar fundmentalist islamic elements blamed USA of being ignorant of troubles of Palestine, Chechnya and Kashmir. How natural and how hypocritical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK one mosque, one prayer and one Imam. Can other muslim gupshup members who went for friday prayers yesterday share their experience. Please do.

Muslim organization across NA are showing more of a political face and move to save themselves and the community they represent otherwise they will be target of a direct attack by an already biased media.

Show me examples of purely muslim organization elsewhere in the world who have no direct bearing of the events.

[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited September 22, 2001).]

4

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by analyze it:
All the supporters of Islamic fundamentalism and well wishers of Taliban and so forth seem to be posting conspiracy theories everywhere and trying to prove that OBL is innocent but none of them seems to be concerned or sorry for loss of so many humans in New York. Is it hypocritical?

Ibrahim says; Hey analyse it! Can your or mine or a billion others feeling sorry for those who have died change anything?

The time for sympathy passed when the events changed, the current situation is that a group of nations are unjustly going to kill innocent people on the basis of American misconceptions for something they have not done ( this can only be approved when sufficient prove for such an accusation has been established, even after 10 years the evidence against OBL is not sound, the Americans in fact committed aggression against the Sudanese and Afghanistan without such evidence,** ( which established the fact that they were lying)** which is a crime against humanity and now this administration is also going to do the same) . If the guilty party had been identified , I assure you Muslims in Afghanistan and across the board will not hesitate to punish the criminals by themselves. In Islam killing innocent people amounts to murder and there is a an ordained punishment for such crimes .

Any person who believes two wrongs will make it right is mentally unsound and any person who that thinks that, “might is right” is also inhumane when innocent people will suffer on account of it.

** Now tell me who is hypocritical here?

You who knowingly allow or willing to allow the innocent to be punished or me who can do nothing for the injustice that had already taken place BUT can do something about the injustice that will take place in the near future.? **

The Logic is “prevention is better than a cure” …got it? It means choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing EVIL …got it?

If innocent people are going to be killed their children will be sure to take vengeance in the future so there is no end to this and what the American alliance is doing is down right stupidity.

If there is prove that OBL killed all those innocent people, by all means it is righteousness to kill him and NO Muslim will shed a tear even …but when there is no evidence to prove such a thing it is error to accuse him even. I hope you understand that No human being should allow an innocent person to be accused. Here all the evidence currently available show that OBL is not guilty . Until someone can put forward such an evidence, which is what the Taliban have been demanding all the while from the Americans . Islam forbids malicious rumors or false evidence and fabrications. ( run through the evidence for such fabrications on the bin ladin thread)

Once you have come up with an answer for the above question

Tell me on what moral grounds does 95 educated civilized senators can approve such a discrimination and agression against the victims at a time like this???

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c107:5:./temp/~c107LLWUzI:e126325:

SEC. 403. None of the funds made available in this Act may be used by the Department of State or the Broadcasting Board of Governors to provide equipment, technical support, consulting services, ** or any other form of assistance to the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation. **

SEC. 406. None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act or any other Act for fiscal year 2002 or any fiscal year thereafter may be obligated or expended for the publication of any official Government document which lists countries and their capital cities ** unless the publication identifies Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. **

SEC. 407. For the purposes of registration of birth, certification of nationality, or ** issuance of a passport of a United States citizen born in the city of Jerusalem, the Secretary of State shall, upon request of the citizen, record the place of birth as Israel. **

Ibrahim says;

  1. This means the Americans want to promote and establish Jerusalem as the capital of Israel even though they are acting like a just mediator between the Palestinians and Israel.

  2. There have no desire to help the oppressed Palestinians in any form or shape and have been using their media to demonize the Palestinians meaning Islam and Muslims .

Hence, the ** truth behind the double talk, double think and double do nature of the current Judeo Christians in America is exposed by what they hide and what they reveal. **

Frankly speaking too many lies are being fabricated and those seeking justice MUST DEAL ONLY WITH THE TRUTH NOT WITH LIES !!! . Hence at this juncture Muslims like me are more concerned with what is and not what was.

BTW, this does not mean I am supporting taliban or OBL or any sect or group be it Islamic or otherwise, I am only interested in the TRUTH behind this matter since it affects Islam and Muslims in general and to date what the Americans have presented amounts to UNTRUTH and their constant reference to war makes them the arrogant on this planet.

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited September 23, 2001).]

5

Most of the time Islamic ideology is contradicting in itself.
Taleban and Osama make a call to all Muslims for holy jihad, on the contrary many from Muslim communities are degrading taleban being unislamic. Majority Islamic govts are siding with Bush, only because they are afraid of America or looking for some rewards. At the same time there are demonstrations in these Islamic states for supporting taleban.
Whose Islam is correct?

Today for Musharraf Osama is unislamic, but his trained jihadis sent to Kashmir and Chechnya are Islamic.

It had been better were Islam confided to mosque and kitchen boundaries. And we could understand the political nature of these crisises, but no, once again we are confused among many islam.

Let us not go in deep history. Last five decades are glorified in Islamic world just for infighting and counter approach to Islam.

I do not think if Imam is sure for what he prays.

6

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
*Most of the time Islamic ideology is contradicting in itself.
Taleban and Osama make a call to all Muslims for holy jihad, on the contrary many from Muslim communities are degrading taleban being unislamic. *

Stupid ppl exist everywhere. Some in Indian some in Africa, America, and so on.

Today for Musharraf Osama is unislamic, but his trained jihadis sent to Kashmir and Chechnya are Islamic.

Fighting for Independency is not a crime and can be considered as Jihad. Their targets are Soldiers not civilians.

It had been better were Islam confided to mosque and kitchen boundaries. And we could understand the political nature of these crisises, but no, once again we are confused among many islam.

Better read a good book about Islam and then discuss with us.

I do not think if Imam(s) is sure for what he prays.

I'm sure they have more information about their religion than you have of your own.
Making own Islamic laws has nothing to do with ISLAM.

[/quote]

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

7

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**Most of the time Islamic ideology is contradicting in itself.
Taleban and Osama make a call to all Muslims for holy jihad, on the contrary many from Muslim communities are degrading taleban being unislamic. Majority Islamic govts are siding with Bush, only because they are afraid of America or looking for some rewards. At the same time there are demonstrations in these Islamic states for supporting taleban.
Whose Islam is correct?

Today for Musharraf Osama is unislamic, but his trained jihadis sent to Kashmir and Chechnya are Islamic.

It had been better were Islam confided to mosque and kitchen boundaries. And we could understand the political nature of these crisises, but no, once again we are confused among many islam.

Let us not go in deep history. Last five decades are glorified in Islamic world just for infighting and counter approach to Islam.

I do not think if Imam is sure for what he prays.

**
[/quote]

Dear Annad,
Being a non-msulim, you have every right to ask us what is true Islam.

Today, as you can notice that many sub-groups within our religion are holding a contrast opinion about the Taleban or Osama.

In real, Islam is a religion of love and peace. Fundamentals like Taleban, who have came up with their intemparent interpretions of teachings of Islam, have nothing to do with Islam.

Our Prophet's grandson, Imam Hussein (called as "son of the Prophet" by Quran) is a prime example of Islam and the tolerance it teaches.
Imam Hussein's whole family, including children, women and companions were killed in the battle of Karbala, hungry and thirsty. Even his 6 month year old was not given water and was shot by an arrow. Yet till the last momment Imam Hussein was advising the enemies to "think about what they are doing", and he was willing to forgive them if they even show a little humanity!

Now this is what real ISLAM teaches us.

Every muslim is asked to follow Quran and Rasool's teachings. One without another is not an option.

Telaban and Osamas have religion of their own. They do what "they" think is correct. Not what Islam, Quran, or our Prophet taught us.

I will be waiting to see your response.

See yah

[This message has been edited by Pagluu (edited September 23, 2001).]

8

When I read Jumah at my local Masjid, the Imaam gave a very important speech concerning Muslims, Non Muslims and A'Hadeeths relating to the signs of the times in context to the current affairs.

He made a very clear point stating that the trials and tribulations for Muslims will get worse and not better! This is something we will have to live with and adapt to.

He gave a very good example, stating that 'when a cat attacks a bird, whether or not the bird closes it's eyes, the cat will still attack'. Therefore we cannot ignore the developments around us and we need to be very vigilant of the backlash of the attack on Muslims, as the stereotyping and profiling has openly commenced.

He also quoted the following ayat:

004.093 If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

I believe over 300 Muslims died in the attack.

Furthermore, he stated that as America is out to avenge the deaths of the Americans more than anything, we must not forget the innocent Muslims that are being openly targeted.

I wonder how many Rabbis and Christian clerics are praying for Muslims that will be killed very soon and whether they will say prayers for the Muslims after they are killed when they are praying for their troops who will no doubt die somewhat in combat, during their days of Mass.

At least the Muslim Imaams have actually prayed for all the innocent lives lost, regardless of Faith, and now it is time we started to protect 'our own' similar to the Americans protecting theirs!!!

9

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
At least the Muslim Imaams have actually prayed for all the innocent lives lost, regardless of Faith, and now it is time we started to protect 'our own' similar to the Americans protecting theirs!!!

**
[/quote]

Very right....

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

10

none of them may or will… all innocent Muslims killed by US/alliance will be considered as ‘collateral damage’ and for that nobody usually gives a damn (esp. if they are Muslims).

why blame others, even us Pakis don’t condemn or raise voices for ourselves. A Pakistani named Waqar Hasan was murdered in Dallas in last few days (as result of backlash) and NONE from Pakistani officials urged US for safety of Pakistanis, NOT EVEN Pakistani Embassy Officials contacted the family of the victim

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

… life of Muslims is getting cheaper everyday.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

11

analyze it makes a valid point and he/she will never receive a straight answer from the muslims on this board.

You asked:

"In last friday prayer, Imam prayed for protection of Muslims in USA and for muslims in Afghanistan being innnocent. Could he not pray for innocent human beings who died in NEW York?????"

The answer is simple, the kafirs or non muslims are destined for hell; so, how can muslims pray or be made to pray for the souls of the infidels?

12

I'm Muslim and i prayed for all.
Question to you: Do Hindus pray for Muslims who get killed in the world (i.e.: Israel)?

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

13

[quote]
The answer is simple, the kafirs or non muslims are destined for hell; so, how can muslims pray or be made to pray for the souls of the infidels?
[/quote]

So you're saying there were no muslims in the WTC? Thats pretty big generalization. I believe the second largest ethnic group inside the building according to one paper was Pakistani.

But all that is besides the point. As muslims we pray for everyone, muslims don't decide who goes to heaven or hell. Moreover, its not only the people killed in the attack, but their grieving families and close friends that one prays for.

14

I believe that most Imamas in Jumah prayers did not pray for people perished in WTC. Any ways this is not going to change because most fundamental concept in Islam is that jews and christians can not be friends of muslim.

My own philosophy is that for prosperity of whole human race we have to be friends to all religions. I dont attack your religion and you dont attack mine. The best way for muslims to flourish is to hold hands with every body else and work diligently in solidarity. I am sure if it happens, the world will be a better place.

The obsolete concept of superiority of Islam and nostalgia of past islamic great empire and concept of khilafah are the greatest hurdle in any progress that we are facing now. Lets join forces with all nations of world and work together for betterment of humanity. This is my mesaage.

Belief is not what mind possesses, it is what possesses the mind!

15

[quote]
Originally posted by analyze it:
**I believe that most Imamas in Jumah prayers did not pray for people perished in WTC. Any ways this is not going to change because most fundamental concept in Islam is that jews and christians can not be friends of muslim.

My own philosophy is that for prosperity of whole human race we have to be friends to all religions. I dont attack your religion and you dont attack mine. The best way for muslims to flourish is to hold hands with every body else and work diligently in solidarity. I am sure if it happens, the world will be a better place.

The obsolete concept of superiority of Islam and nostalgia of past islamic great empire and concept of khilafah are the greatest hurdle in any progress that we are facing now. Lets join forces with all nations of world and work together for betterment of humanity. This is my mesaage.

**
[/quote]

The hurdle are we, the ppl who have lust for power. Not Kalifah is the problem, we the human race are responsible for it. Our thinking (talking about minds not depending on religion), even before christianity and Islam, ppl used to fight against each other. Why?! They fought for land for soil. My friend this is in human nature you can't change it.

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

16

GFQ says

1) "So you're saying there were no muslims in the WTC? Thats pretty big generalization. I believe the second largest ethnic group inside the building according to one paper was Pakistani."

GFQ
The question was: WHY did the Imam of the mosque prayed ONLY for the muslims and not for all humanity?

Do you see the misconnect in your observation. The Mullah did pray for the muslims but he did not bother for the non muslims because they "belong in Hell" (HQ)

2) "But all that is besides the point. As muslims we pray for everyone, muslims don't decide who goes to heaven or hell."

GFQ, Really?
I am surprised considering the number of times this matter has been discussed here and under your moderation.

Islam "does decide" who goes to heaven & hell. And, according to Fundamentalist/Extremist Islam only muslims who follow Muhammed (SWS) and his message will go to Heaven. And, extremist muslims claim that only one sect of Islam is true and destined for Heaven and all the other muslims & non muslims are "hell fire".

GFQ,
The Islam that you follow which is Fundamentalist does not preach Co-existence with Humanity that is different and neither does it preach Equality with fellow muslims.

It stands for "HEAR & OBEY" or, "Total Surrender" to the dictates of the Mullahs.

17

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**GFQ says

1) "So you're saying there were no muslims in the WTC? Thats pretty big generalization. I believe the second largest ethnic group inside the building according to one paper was Pakistani."

GFQ
The question was: WHY did the Imam of the mosque prayed ONLY for the muslims and not for all humanity?

Do you see the misconnect in your observation. The Mullah did pray for the muslims but he did not bother for the non muslims because they "belong in Hell" (HQ)

2) "But all that is besides the point. As muslims we pray for everyone, muslims don't decide who goes to heaven or hell."

GFQ, Really?
I am surprised considering the number of times this matter has been discussed here and under your moderation.

Islam "does decide" who goes to heaven & hell. And, according to Fundamentalist/Extremist Islam only muslims who follow Muhammed (SWS) and his message will go to Heaven. And, extremist muslims claim that only one sect of Islam is true and destined for Heaven and all the other muslims & non muslims are "hell fire".

GFQ,
The Islam that you follow which is Fundamentalist does not preach Co-existence with Humanity that is different and neither does it preach Equality with fellow muslims.

It stands for "HEAR & OBEY" or, "Total Surrender" to the dictates of the Mullahs. **
[/quote]

most of your answers are illogical. Imams of mosques (to my knowledge) prayed for the heirs of victims that the pain be made easy on them etc.

its ALLAH who decides of someone's destiny Hell or Heaven. We are given mere indications so we can judge OURSELF where we are heading to.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

18

Face Up

I don't know what Faith you belong to and I am not going to guess or generalise.

The fact remains that Islam has been labelled with FUNDAMENTALISM for donkeys years, at the drop of a hat. Every time Non Muslims think about Islam, the first thing that comes into their minds and out of their mouths is FUNDAMENTALISM!

The only difference between now and then is that people believe that they are JUSTIFIED in labelling Islam as FUNDAMENTALIST in light of the recent events.

Yet again, the majority of the stereotypers and profilers are WRONG.

Do you understand the Jizyah Tax system and why it was introduced and for whom!

Fundamentalists exists in all major religions, but you don't see Caucasian Christians being labelled (Oklahoma Bombing, IRA, ETA), you don't see the Jews being labelled (Mossad) and you don't see Hindus being labelled (Tamil Tigers).

At least be consistent with the 'paint brush'!

19

Face up, I think that paperbag over your head is hindering your sight.

20

GFQ
I decided to remove the paper bag. LOL.

Are you becoming a moderate and accepting of pluralism and co-existence because that would be a departure from Taliban, JUI, JI, Saudia & ayatollah version of Islam.