Islam and Peace cont.

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

1)Shahzaaduk, in his very first post at Gupshupp, writes:

"Yes Islam does mean peace,but it is not a stupid religion"

Shahzadu,
Can you pls show me any muslim states that is at present living in peace, either with its own muslims or kafirs.

2)Ibrahim,
When you stated that "SLAVERY in Islam was gradually phased out", you made a donkey of yourself.

Slavery was alive & kicking during the Ottaman Caliphate; the Muslim Arabs were leaders in the Slave Trade that shipped millions, including free muslims, to the Americas.

Moreover, slavery was LEGAL in Saudi Arabia, that rules/governs by Sharia'h, as late as 1962.

I stated very clearly that, Yes, indeed, Islam encourages that slaves be freed but it never abolished slavery.

Why don't you go ask fellow Pakistanis that have millions of poor low caste muslims under bondage to set them free?

82

[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
Ibrahim, When you stated that "SLAVERY in Islam was gradually phased out", you made a donkey of yourself.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says; yup for a pea brain person like you , Satan must have indeed made me look like a donkey but for those who had brains they will be able to understand that IT was only in Islam slavery was gradually phased out.

NOTE: I am talking about slavery where people were bought and sold BUT when it comes to slaves (workers and employees) that cannot be phased out for even today we have them.

What took place prior to Islam was that the Brahmins (hindus) enslaved people by color or tribe) and subjugated them to the worst atrocities ( still doing it in India today) .

As for the Jews they made God a racist God and condemned all non Jews as animals. ( even today the Jews secretly hold this view as their Talmud, which is kept hidden enjoins this) Hence only in Islam, all human beings were looked as equals and were respected as human beings even if they were not Muslims.

[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
Slavery was alive & kicking during the Ottaman Caliphate; the Muslim Arabs were leaders in the Slave Trade that shipped millions, including free muslims, to the Americas.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; You are so silly, any human being can do what they like including go against their teachings that does not mean the religion approved it or taught it. That is why when a hindu eats dung and drink urine, one cannot say the religion teaches them to do so until a verse in their scriptures is produced. (which can be produced in Hinduism)

Now If you have some brains, demonstrate to us by showing us where in the Qur’an , slavery of free man is enjoined and promoted?

[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
Moreover, slavery was LEGAL in Saudi Arabia, that rules/governs by Sharia'h, as late as 1962.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; You mean Saudi Arabia should not have a working population that works as the people chose to work? You mean there should not be any prisoners of war and minor criminals in Saudi Arabia?

[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
I stated very clearly that, Yes, indeed, Islam encourages that slaves be freed but it never abolished slavery.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; You are silly, why would slaves be abolished, when the words salves included workers and employees who by the “their own free” will became slaves and that is approved and practiced even to this days only now we call them workers or employees in those times they were all called slaves (general term for anyone who served another) …got it? I have repeated this over and over again, I hope you will have some brains to understand this soon, failing which I have to leave you to delude yourself as long as you want. .

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by logical:
Why don't you go ask fellow Pakistanis that have millions of poor low caste muslims under bondage to set them free? QUOTE]

Ibrahim says; So you see those under bondage can be considered slaves and these people can either place themselves under bondage due to their dire circumstances or they have been forced into it by someone else. Hence one must know how and why they ended up doing bonded labor.

The problem here is , a man is allowed to do what is right and move away form what is wrong ( that is one of the purpose of life) and the Qur’an advises that even those under such situations should be looked at with compassion and treated humanly and released when they have fulfilled their contracts as agreed upon or released when they request for it ( read the Qur’anic passages I quoted earlier) . Islam not only enjoin the release of slaves ( those bought and sold) it also enjoins that they be treated as equals, the prophet demonstrated this by taking one as his own son and marrying some to free women. .

Whereas hindusim caused untold sufferings by the total condemnation of woman and sudras (slaves) and pitched them together with dogs and claimed they are all EVIL.

So wake up or SLEEP and dream as you like , either way you will die sooner or later.

83

Whose Islam is correct? Shall we agree that there are many-many Islam?

{“Our Islamic state is the true Islamic system in the world and for this reason… the enemies of our country look on us as a thorn in their eye and seek different excuses to finish it off,” Omar was quoted as saying in the speech}

Quote ‘The mysterious Mullah behind the Taliban’

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=

84

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**Dear Changez,

Aan Wasir, You do not understand written something in simple words. We need an entire generation of stupids to believe the history taught in Pakistan, and I assure you that we Indians do not want to compete you people in stupidity.

Rgds**
[/quote]

anand.....

Your style is not new for me, a typical Hindu answer.
For your information I am from England and I don't know what is taught in Pakistan about history. And you don't need "entire generation of Stupids" just you will do....

You started this thread so I wanted to show you the face of your own history during Muslim rule.
If you have any answer to my questions thats fine otherwise you can ignore them.

My questions are there, re read them and do some research, you don't have to answer me, just for your own information.

I hope you would stop behaving like a typical Hindu "Baniya"

Be in peace

85

=============================================
Original Quote by Ibrahim:
Rig Veda III:34:9 Indra killed the Dasyus (dark skinned natives) and “gave protection to the Aryan color.”

Not only did the Aryans shamelessly pray for booty in war but they based their militarily won supremacy on the lightness of their skin color compared to the dark colors of the native Dasyus. They arrogantly proclaim,

=============================================
Victory: Ibrahim, I think U r out of your minds where did you get this translation, all rubbish. Do not try to put UR translation, If you want the exact ideas, I suggest U to come to Tirupathi, and read the archives and the samhithas of AdiSankara, Ramanuja and Madhva.

Quote: Ibrahim
“Let those who have no weapons suffer sorrow.” (Rig Veda IV:5:14.)]

Victory: If you use ur brain and get the full reading of the text you will get to know the meaning, it is written that everyone should be ready and be prepared to face the enemy, else who do not possess weapons will suffer, I think it is understandable that U missed the point by 1000 miles.

=============================================
Quote: Ibrahim
Indra is praised for killing thousands of the abject tribes of Dasas with his arrow and taking great vengeance with “murdering weapons.” (Rig Veda IV:28:3-4)

Victory: If You read the scriptures you find that Indra slayed the Rakshasas and not the Dasas, Dasas are the devotees of Lord Krishna. When Indra fights with Rakshasas do you expect he will fight with sticks and stones. Wake up, Indra is not God, he is only a DEVARAJA. All weapons used in War are for Defence and Offence. If any weapon used in war cannot kill then it is useless.

=============================================
Quote: Ibrahim
One hymn mentions sending thirty thousand Dasas “to slumber” and another hymn sixty thousand slain. A hymn dedicated to the weapons of war (Rig Veda VI:75) refers to a warrior “armed with mail,”
using a bow to win cattle and subdue all regions, “upstanding in the car the skillful charioteer guides his strong horses on whithersoe’er he will.” The arrows had iron mouths and shafts “with venom smeared” that
“not one be left alive.” Hymn VII:83 begins, “Looking to you and your alliance, O ye men, armed with broad axes they went forward, fain for spoil. Ye smote and slew his Dasa and his Aryan enemies.”

Victory: Where did you get this Aryan theory into the Hymns. “Arya” is the way you address people in Sanskrit, it means Sir. It does not mean Aryans.

Quote: Ibrahim
Indra helped win the Aryan victory:
“He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus, after his wont, and laid them low with arrows.
The mighty thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends won the land, the sunlight, and the waters.” --Rig Veda I:100:18.

VIctory: In vedas, nothing is mentioned about complexions !!! Get to the truth Ibrahim, Read Gita with Heart and see in the eyes of a true Human. You will find eternal peace.
There are lot of slang going on about Hinduism, but the truth is everyone is modifying the essence for their own needs. Better consult experts.
If you see history, the biggest perpetrators of crime are Christians and Muslims. In the current world you find that the sole cause of all the trouble is the fundamentalism of muslims. Whether it preaches or not , It is not right for me to comment, but I judge the religion by its followers. If you see anywhere in the world, it is these fanatics who create terror. The face of the world has changed due to these satans. God Save the World from these fanatics.
For guys like you pulling out translations from web sites, I have this prayer.
“ASATHOMA SADGAMAYA
THAMASOMA JYOTHIRGAMAYA
MRUTYORMAA AMRUTHAMGAMAYA”

“Oh Lord, take us from Wrong path to the Right Path, From Darkness to Light from death to Divinity”

“Sarvejana sukhinoobhavanthu”
Let all humans like happily.

86

[quote]
Originally posted by Victory:

Victory: Ibrahim, I think U r out of your minds where did you get this translation, all rubbish. Do not try to put UR translation, If you want the exact ideas, I suggest U to come to Tirupathi, and read the archives and the samhithas of AdiSankara, Ramanuja and Madhva.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Victory , I do feel sorry for you. But you must understand that translations will vary according to the translator ( but the essence will remain the same even though the words used may differ) and many have tried this argument with me, to which by the Grace of God, I have shown evidence to proof them all wrong.

So If you feel any of the translations is in error or mistranslated put forward your translations and I will do my best to establish the TRUTH.

87

anand, you sound very bitter towards my religion, islam. i must say that islam is the most practical, non-theoretical religion there can be. it is a fact that the muslim religion is spreading like wildfire due to what our religion teaches and believes in. there is no caste system, no prejudice between classes of people, no cruelty between humanbeings of the same religion, etc. the koran is very strict about treating all muslims as one under Allah. islam is the only religion where the original religion is being practices in its most original form; nothing has been changed to please 'modern' mentalities, etc. islam is practican, makes sense, and is all in all a way of life, a way of survival.

88

anand, you sound very bitter towards my religion, islam. i must say that islam is the most practical, non-theoretical religion there can be. it is a fact that the muslim religion is spreading like wildfire due to what our religion teaches and believes in. there is no caste system, no prejudice between classes of people, no cruelty between humanbeings of the same religion, etc. the koran is very strict about treating all muslims as one under Allah. islam is the only religion where the original religion is being practices in its most original form; nothing has been changed to please 'modern' mentalities, etc. islam is practican, makes sense, and is all in all a way of life, a way of survival.

89

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**Dear Changez,

This is for you information that from India no Muslim family migrated to Pakistan after 1950, whereas minority migration from Pakistan to Indian soil continued till 1975. Pls go thru your official datas. One hindu family even migrated in 1999, now settled in Haryana.
.....Rgds**
[/quote]

now you are bringing up examples of Hindus leaving Pakistan while initially you claimed "majority of Muslims".... please, stick to your notion.

why is it so hard to distiguish the concept from actual work?

jihad is the only point you get repelled from, right? here it is :

What is Jihad?
"Jihad" does not mean "holy war." Literally, jihad means to strive,
struggle and exert effort. It is a central and broad Islamic concept that
includes struggle against evil inclinations within oneself, struggle to
improve the quality of life in society, struggle in the battlefield for
self-defense (e.g., - having a standing army for national defense), or
fighting against tyranny or oppression.

you'll keep arguing about history, "claims from Muslims" about history, etc etc... but just look at the above definition of Jihad... you have been informed of definition a lots of times... I hope you'll grasp it now.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

90

Ibrahim:
I would certainly come up with my translations, & but let me not divert from the topic Islam & Peace
I do not know why people misinterprete Jihad, but this is what is written about Jihad .
Refer: http://www.islaam.com/articles/objectives_of_jihaad.htm

"Allaah, the Most High and the Most Majestic, has stated the objectives behind jihaad in the cause of Allaah, the Most High. He, the Most Perfect, says:

Fight them until there is no more fitnah (shirk), and the religion will be for Allaah Alone. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah) then certainly Allaah is All-Seer of what they do. [Soorah al-Anfaal: 39]

Fight them until there is no more fitnah, and all worship is for Allaah Alone. But if they cease let there be no transgression except against the wrong-doers. [Soorah al-Baqarah: 193]"

This is what I have got the exact translation.

91

Calling all Hindu's (non-muslims)

Every empire has very dark days behind it littered with attrocities and crimes against humanity.

Why is it then that Muslims are the peoples that are being attributed as having all roots for such crime in their religeon.

The crusades for exmaple (which contnue until today) came about when the nights templar rallied forces to massacre every Mohamadian (Muslims) as they called them in the holy land. In retrospect do Hindu's hold Christianity in contempt?

We as muslims have no empire now yet still every struggle for freedom and fight against oppression is seen as an afront to the "civilised" world and again attributed to our religeon. We are being persecuted as individuals, as were the Jews and as a people. The Jews now persecute muslims, do the Christians ans Hindus' hold them in contempt?

We ARE a peace loving religeon. There are many transcripts from the Quran which are not meant literally. One knows in ones heart what is right or wrong. To kill innocents is always WRONG. To defame non-muslims religeons is always WRONG. However, to take up arms and fight oppression is always RIGHT.

Please don't hate, we are not taught to hate. We are only taught to attempt to influence people by our actions and deeds. That is why the terrorist action on the WTC and any actions against innocents are in contradiction to the teachings of the Quran.

Did the bombings carried out by Timothy
Mcveigh cause a global backlash against christianity. Do people still attribute the lynichings of the Klu Klux Klan to a violent intolerant version of Christianity. Does the world condemn and hold Hinduism in contempt for their contnuing persecution of lower castes? When mentioning the slave trade why is'nt christianity in the spot light. Why is this dubious hnour reserved only for muslims?

When mentioning the erradication of native peoples in Australia, Tasmania, New Zealand, North America, South America and countless others why is'nt christianity held in contempt.

You can quote and attempt to twist the words of the Quran as you wish but the vast vast majority of the 2 000 000 000 muslims on this earth will never believe anything but a resounding message of peace from Gods words.

In extreme circumstances when muslims are prohiboeted from practicing their faith they have every right as do any regligeous people to fight the obstacles to their practice.

All on this earth are related and effectively a family and worship differently.

Islam teaches tolerance of all faiths, for if you are intolerate to any faith, we are taught that we are weakening greatly our own faith.

Why hark back to the Islamic rule over India alone and negate the 200 years of christian rule, are christians held in contempt?

There is a world wide contempt for Islam alone. Why?

I like along with a third of the world am muslim,

I do not hate,

I will not hate,

I can not hate,

because I am Muslim.

"lets all step back and try and see the big picture"

92

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir’aun!”
*

93

When some jihadi hijackers attacked American buildings, did they think that they were going to kill representatives of all races and religions in one instance? What was the energy stimulating them if not quran and Islam?
I will be very happy if it is proved that hijackers were not Muslims.

Let us have a look at slum areas in India or in any other place of world! People of different religions are residing there. And their base religion is poverty. Why Muslims think that they are the only repressed religion by others?

Rest of the religions Christianity, Hindus or Buddhists produce a very less quantity of fanatics, say 5 or 6 in a century, whereas Islam is glorified for producing religio fanatics in a good quantity, 5 or 6 a day in one or other part of the world.

Pls do not show me books, quran and meanings of its verses.
It is high time that the world community analyzes the psyco structure of Islam.

94

To all Hindus here,

If you're trying to engage Ibrahim, then you're certainly barking the wrong tree. His knowledge on Hinduism is stunning and amazing.

Do you know Hinduism belongs to Semitic linneage?
Stay tuned and scholar Ibrahim will enlighten you.

Do you know Vedas and Upanishads were written by Veda Vyas following Allah's revelations (hmmmm doesn't sound a bit familiar) and isn't 3-4k years old?
Stay tuned and scholar Ibrahim will enlighten you.

Do you know the origins of Vedas was in the deserts of Arabia?
Stay tuned and scholar Ibrahim will enlighten you.

Do you know our scholar Ibrahim has now camped in the deserts of Arabia busy digging out sand to retrieve the original Arabic version of Vedas?
Stay tuned and scholar Ibrahim will enlighten you.

Cheers....

P.S. Well said Thap, I do agree with you. As a sidenote I would like to add that a few self declared scholars of Islam present in this forum try to ridicule our faith and straight jacket it to fit into your school of thought. They have little or no knowlede on our religion only a few superficial and false ideas. It only generates our anger and revulsion. Sometimes it is a tit-for-tat response to unseat them from their high horse.

Your post prompts me to quote this Ayah...

Whoever kills another one without justifiable cause, surely he is killing all of humanity. And whoever saves the life of another one, surely he saves the lives of all of humanity. [Sura Al Ma'aidah: Ayah 32]

95

Anand.

I have said everything I wish to on this matter.

Any further discussion would be circular and would not benefit either one of us.

You have your own agenda of contempt, whereas I have my agenda of amity.

I cannot exaplain to you any more that hate should be avoided. Please cleanse yourself and dont seek to weaken anothers faith, instead seek to strenghthen your own.

As Salaam Wa Alaikam brother.

"lets all step back and try and see the big picture"

96

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
When some jihadi hijackers attacked American buildings, did they think that they were going to kill representatives of all races and religions in one instance?
[/quote]

Proof it!

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*